Ukraine Crisis - Page 538

On May 16 2014 10:52 marigoldran wrote:
Akhmetov is totally correct. If East Ukraine splits, the West will impose sanctions on it and Russia. This means massive unemployment and the end of the East Ukrainian economy, which is heavily dependent on steel exports to the West. This argument will be very difficult for Russia to counter. What can they offer to the oligarchs to the compensate for Western sanctions?

In return for his support of the Kiev government, he will most likely demand a more federalist structure, which of course means more power for him. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Akhmetov will probably manage his region much better than whatever governor Kiev appoints. Since he has such a large stake in the area, he'll support order and responsibility.

I, for one, have no objection to a true federalist structure dominated by the oligarchs.

Exclusive: Canada trimmed Russia sanctions to protect business interests
(Reuters) - Canada broke with the United States and did not impose sanctions on two key allies of Russian President Vladimir Putin because the pair had Canadian business interests, according to sources familiar with the matter.

The revelation puts into question the government's tough line on Russia over the crisis in Ukraine. Prime Minister Stephen Harper recently compared Putin's actions to those of Adolf Hitler in the run-up to World War Two.

.....

But unlike the United States, Canada has not moved against Sergei Chemezov, who heads state-owned industrial and defense conglomerate Rostec, and Igor Sechin, CEO of oil giant Rosneft. Both men, who are close to Putin, have business ties to Canada.

Rosneft owns some 30 percent of a Canadian oil field, while

Rostec has an aircraft assembly joint venture lined up with Bombardier Inc. The venture is vital to the Canadian plane and train maker, as the fate of a roughly $3.4 billion aircraft sale deal is tied to it.

Asked about the decision not to go after either Sechin or Chemezov, a Canadian government source familiar with Ottawa's sanctions strategy told Reuters: "Our goal is to sanction Russia, it is not to go out of our way to sanction or penalize Canadian companies."

The comments appear to contrast with the official government approach. Harper, referring to the Ukraine crisis, said in March that "we will not shape our foreign policy to commercial interests" and officials say that stance is still valid.

Indeed, the Conservative government on Wednesday called on business executives not to attend events in Russia, like the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum this month and the World Petroleum Congress in Moscow in June.

"We will continue to apply pressure to Russia, we will continue to impose sanctions along with our allies, but we will also look out for Canada's broader interests," the government source said.

Canada's official opposition New Democrats said the failure to target Chemezov and Sechin undermined the case for sanctions.

.....

But Harper took a strong line from the start, castigating Putin and pushing the effort to have Russia kicked out of the Group of Eight leading industrialized nations.

Source

On May 16 2014 17:31 sgtnoobkilla wrote:

"we will not shape our foreign policy to commercial interests"

What a load of bollocks...
Yeah right, it's not like the Canadian government has ever bended over in the past to Russian companies right?
'Tough' sanctions at work doing an absolutely wonderful job I see. Putin must be loosing so much sleep at night over them.

On May 16 2014 20:15 radiatoren wrote:

Can you blame him. I mean, he is a hypocrit and a straight up liar.
However, commercial interests is far more powerful than any other force in shaping foreign relations. If you want a domestic industry to thrive, you better recalibrate your moral compas. Commercial interests will inevitably control foreign policy to a high degree as long as any kind of protectionism exists (old state protectionism or new legal protectionism alike). You are in for a slaughter from the opposition if you do otherwise, since you have handed them an attack-angle in holy area of economy.

On May 16 2014 08:39 marigoldran wrote:
And then you have people like Igor Strelkov, suspected GRU agent, in East Ukraine who is actively trying to destabilize the area.

Though of course some people on this forum continue to believe there is insufficient evidence of Russian involvement in East Ukraine. After all they need to be "objective." Perhaps Igor Strelkov is just some random Russian dude who coincidentally chose to emigrate to Ukraine at this time out of the purity and goodness of his heart.

On May 16 2014 22:28 Cheerio wrote:

the biggest problem is not Russian military support, but propaganda, which is brainwashing people to honestly believe they are fighting for the greater good (or rather against the evil - the West and the new government). Btw I'm not sure if this was posted but there were recently a few secret award ceremonies from Kremlin for the warriors of an informational front.

On May 16 2014 10:52 marigoldran wrote:
Akhmetov is totally correct. If East Ukraine splits, the West will impose sanctions on it and Russia. This means massive unemployment and the end of the East Ukrainian economy, which is heavily dependent on steel exports to the West. This argument will be very difficult for Russia to counter. What can they offer to the oligarchs to the compensate for Western sanctions?

On May 16 2014 10:52 marigoldran wrote:
In return for his support of the Kiev government, he will most likely demand a more federalist structure, which of course means more power for him. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Akhmetov will probably manage his region much better than whatever governor Kiev appoints. Since he has such a large stake in the area, he'll support order and responsibility.

I, for one, have no objection to a true federalist structure dominated by the oligarchs.

On May 16 2014 22:58 Cheerio wrote:

Cheaper gas, but that clearly is not enough paired with the risks of reprivatization.


You are forgetting he was the most influential person behind the Party of Regions before Yanukovich started to create his Family. The governorship was proposed to Akhmetov by Kiev after Euromaidan, but he turned it down and urged Taruta to take it.

About federalization. It will be very hard to enforce because of how it looks like to the population: Russia and Donbass are trying to force their ways over the rest of Ukraine all over again. That's not gonna work, not after Euromaidan. First of all the Parliament would need a constitutional majority, that's highly unlikely. But even if they do that, that will probably launch another Euromaidan which will result in Parliament reelections and those will lead even more pro-Ukrainian forces into it (as current polls suggest). Kiev is proposing a wide reform of decentralization of powers, I don't think they can get more than that.

On May 17 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
That politicians need to stay way from constitutional changes which the population overwhelmingly disapproves of? Scary idea indeed.

GENEVA / KYIV (16 May 2014) – UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said Friday that a new UN report produced by her 34-strong monitoring team in Ukraine shows “an alarming deterioration in the human rights situation in the east of the country, as well as serious problems emerging in Crimea, especially in relation to the Crimean Tatars.”

She called on “those with influence on the armed groups responsible for much of the violence in eastern Ukraine to do their utmost to rein in these men who seem bent on tearing the country apart.”

The 36-page report is the second to be produced by the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission, based in five Ukrainian cities, since it was deployed by the High Commissioner for Human Rights in March. It covers the period from 2 April to 6 May.

The report makes a number of observations and recommendations relating to the programme of legal reforms under way in the country, including expressing concerns about the “Law on the restoration of the credibility of the judiciary in Ukraine” which entered into force on 10 May.

While noting that many peaceful rallies and demonstrations continue to take place in Ukraine, the report describes “an increasing tendency in some critical urban areas for rallies of opposing groups to be held simultaneously, often leading to violent confrontations.” It also notes “repeated acts of violence against peaceful participants of rallies, mainly those in support of Ukraine’s unity and against the lawlessness in the cities and villages in eastern Ukraine. In most cases, local police did nothing to prevent violence, while in some cases it openly cooperated with the attackers.”

Listing numerous specific examples of targeted killings, torture and beatings, abductions, intimidation and some cases of sexual harassment – mostly carried out by well-organized and well-armed anti-Government groups in the east – the report also draws attention to missing persons, including 83 still unaccounted for after disappearing during the events related to the original “Maidan” protests in Kiev. In the east, there has been a worrying rise in abductions and unlawful detention of journalists, activists, local politicians, representatives of international organizations and members of the military, the report says. While some have subsequently been released, the bodies of a number of others have been dumped in rivers or other areas, and some remain unaccounted for. The problem has been especially marked in and around the town of Slovyansk, in the Donetsk region, with a group called the ‘Slovyansk self-defence unit’ heavily implicated.

The report also notes cases when the State Security Service and army units operating in the east have been accused of killing individuals and of being responsible for forced disappearances. “Security and law enforcement operations must be in line with international standards and guarantee the protection of all individuals at all times,” the report says, adding that “Law enforcement bodies must ensure that all detainees are registered and afforded legal review of the grounds of their detention.”

The report draws particular attention to the deteriorating climate facing the media in eastern Ukraine. “Journalists, bloggers and other media personnel either based in the region, or visiting, are facing increasing threats and acts of intimidation, including abduction and unlawful detention by armed groups,” the report states, noting allegations that “at the check-points of Slovyansk, there are lists of journalists and others that the armed group is seeking, with photographs and personal data.”

The UN Human Rights office monitors say that they were aware of “at least 23 journalists, reporters, photographers (both foreign and Ukrainian nationals) who have been abducted and unlawfully detained, primarily in Slovyansk.”

“The struggle for control of the media outlets, and who is able to broadcast where, continues inside Ukraine, particularly in the east,” the report adds, citing numerous examples of harassment, intimidation and blocked broadcasting in eastern Ukraine and especially in Crimea, where a number of radio and TV stations have had to cease broadcasting altogether.

The report notes numerous difficulties arising from the fact that “the legislation of the Russian Federation is being enforced on the territory of Crimea, at variance with the UN General Assembly resolution 68/262.” This, it continues, “is creating difficulties for Crimean residents as there are many differences with Ukrainian laws.” One particular example concerns the halting on 6 May of the opioid substitution therapy (OST) programme that had been available to HIV/AIDS patients in Crimea as well as in the rest of Ukraine. “The majority of former OST patients now face deterioration in their health condition due to the fact that this treatment has been curtailed,” the report states.

The report highlights a number of other emerging problems in Crimea, especially in relation to the Crimean Tatars and minorities. The Crimean Tatars, who were accused of treason and forcibly deported en masseto Central Asia by the Stalin government of the USSR 70 years ago on 18 May 1944, were only allowed to return to Ukraine during the 1990s.

The report notes alarming developments surrounding the issue of citizenship following the agreement between the Russian Federation and the authorities in Crimea, which stipulates that the citizens of Ukraine and stateless persons permanently residing in Crimea or in Sevastopol shall be recognized as the citizens of the Russian Federation. There are reports that those who did not apply for citizenship by the deadline of 18 April “are facing harassment and intimidation.”

Crimean Tatars are facing numerous other problems: these include the freedom of movement of their leaders (several of whom were denied entry when trying to go back to Crimea from other parts of Ukraine); cases of physical harassment; restrictions on Crimean Tatar media; fears of religious persecution of those who are practising Muslims; and a threat by the Crimean prosecutor that the work of the Parliament of the Crimean Tatars People may be announced illegal and terminated. Already, more than 7,200 people from Crimea – mostly Crimean Tartars – have become internally displaced in other areas of Ukraine.

The report notes that the regional office of the Ombudsperson in Crimea has been forced to close, and expresses concern for “NGOs based in Crimea who will now operate under the law on foreign agents of the Russian Federation. This will potentially affect their operations, as it places restrictions on the receipt of foreign funding. There is no such law in Ukraine.”

The High Commissioner urged all Ukrainian political leaders to avoid any actions that would further inflame the situation, noting that the country’s population should be allowed to vote on their future in a peaceful and secure environment during the elections scheduled for 25 May.

“The report notes how presidential candidates are being harassed and sometimes physically attacked,” she said. “Free, fair and transparent presidential elections – in line with relevant international standards – are an important factor if tensions are to be reduced and law and order restored, which of course is essential for the peaceful development of the country and all its inhabitants. Instead, the continuing rhetoric of hatred and propaganda, coupled with killings and other acts of violence, is fuelling the escalation of the crisis in Ukraine,” she said.

The full report can be accessed at: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15May2014.pdf

On May 17 2014 02:11 mahrgell wrote:


What you wrote was more along the lines:
"We riot against any elected parliament, until they only do, what we want." - Which is indeed not how democracy works.

And it is indeed worrying, that both sides in the Ukraine conflict think, that their only chance lies in polarizing opinions even further. Yes, if all decisions are binary, it is only about against it or for it, majorities automatically happen. But you also divide the country even further.
And both sides are doing their best to make any return to normal communication impossible. Even if Russia would now suddenly decide to sit back, leave the separatists alone, and wait until they are crushed... The damage is done. And both sides have their fair share in it. Russia has certainly the bigger active part, but the western side has made it way too easy for them, and while I was positively surprised about the western Ukraines actions during the Crimea crisis, what has happened the last two weeks it looks like they joined the Russians in their methods.
But hey... even back on page 50 of this thread, I said, that sometimes going slow, is the better way to achieve your goals, especially when the conflict was already won... But hey... REVOLUTION, YAY!!! Going Allin obviously worked super well for Euromaidan!

Well... The only sad part is, that because of what has happened, the EU might feel, they have to attach them another huge burden only to oppose Russia. I just hope they are smart enough not to. The EU should remain an economic organization, that cares for it's own (members) profit, and not try to be the angel of peace, love and mercy for failed nations.

On May 16 2014 22:58 Cheerio wrote:

Cheaper gas, but that clearly is not enough paired with the risks of reprivatization.


You are forgetting he was the most influential person behind the Party of Regions before Yanukovich started to create his Family. The governorship was proposed to Akhmetov by Kiev after Euromaidan, but he turned it down and urged Taruta to take it.

About federalization. It will be very hard to enforce because of how it looks like to the population: Russia and Donbass are trying to force their ways over the rest of Ukraine all over again. That's not gonna work, not after Euromaidan. First of all the Parliament would need a constitutional majority, that's highly unlikely. But even if they do that, that will probably launch another Euromaidan which will result in Parliament reelections and those will lead even more pro-Ukrainian forces into it (as current polls suggest). Kiev is proposing a wide reform of decentralization of powers, I don't think they can get more than that.

On May 17 2014 02:58 Mc wrote:


I really don't follow what you're trying to say. How is the West partially responsible for the situation in E. Ukraine? Russia wants to destabilize Ukraine, and there is little the West can do. Yanukovych also has lot's of influence in that area and I don't see any way that the West can stop their destabilization efforts.

The EU has been doing everything it can to avoid sanctions that hurt the EU economy. I agree that the EU should be a primarily economic organization, but in some situations the EU should act together politically. The threat of Russia annexing countries should be handled collectively. The threat of Russia in general should be handled collectively. Keep in mind Russia takes a "divide and conquer" approach to Europe - using gas prices/availability as a political tool. This almost forces the EU to act politically, even though it is primarily an economic alliance.

As to the EU being an "angel of peace,love, and mercy" for failed nations - I think they should be very supportive of European countries that are trying to become 'normal', but that doesn't mean allowing them to join the EU.