EPT***
***
Useful reminder:
***
***
Ukraine Crisis - Page 536
| Forum Index > Closed |
There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated. New policy, please read before posting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711 | ||
|
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
*** *** Useful reminder: *** *** | ||
|
Mc
332 Posts
From the context of your post that wasn't at all clear. I looked back at your previous post and indeed, you were referring to Russian media concerning separatists. Either way, no one (including the person you were discussing with) has ever claimed that the Russian government started propagandizing about separatists in E. Ukraine before there were separatists. That's a straw man argument, avoiding the actual point of discussion which is Russia's media coverage of EuroMaidan and the new Ukrainian government helped shape the minds of the separatists and plaid a major role in the separatist movement. | ||
|
Mc
332 Posts
| ||
|
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
| ||
|
mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
http://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/2014/may/14/hunter-biden-job-board-ukraine-biggest-gas-producer-burisma Even it would be based entirely on merit, etc blabla... The timing is terribly awful and the perfect present to the Russian media. In this case, it can't even be called propaganda, when they make use of it. No need to make up anything... The damage is done. To me it is surprising the backslash in the west isn't bigger about this. In Germany we forced our president for way less to resign. Again, even if there would be some reasons making Hunter Biden the perfect choice... the lack of political sensitivity is striking and should disqualify anyone from being the Vice President of the most important global power. edit: And yes... we still have our former chancellor Gerhard Schröder being best buddy with Putin... And while I think, he is really damaging the German position, he isn't in power anymore, which makes it hard to punish him. Even though it would be well deserved. | ||
|
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 15 2014 19:05 mahrgell wrote: Sometimes it feels, like the US government isn't less corrupt then the Ukrainian one... TheGuardian summarized it pretty well: http://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/2014/may/14/hunter-biden-job-board-ukraine-biggest-gas-producer-burisma Even it would be based entirely on merit, etc blabla... The timing is terribly awful and the perfect present to the Russian media. In this case, it can't even be called propaganda, when they make use of it. No need to make up anything... The damage is done. To me it is surprising the backslash in the west isn't bigger about this. In Germany we forced our president for way less to resign. Again, even if there would be some reasons making Hunter Biden the perfect choice... the lack of political sensitivity is striking and should disqualify anyone from being the Vice President of the most important global power. President Nixon resigned for so much less shit that Obama have been doing (NRA). The reason why people keep Obama in office is because he is black and America have became a rather PC place. And honestly at this point, I don't think that a president really matters. I think its really the one that "lobbies" or "legal briding" that truly controls America. | ||
|
Mc
332 Posts
On May 15 2014 19:05 mahrgell wrote: Sometimes it feels, like the US government isn't less corrupt then the Ukrainian one... TheGuardian summarized it pretty well: http://www.theguardian.com/business/shortcuts/2014/may/14/hunter-biden-job-board-ukraine-biggest-gas-producer-burisma Even it would be based entirely on merit, etc blabla... The timing is terribly awful and the perfect present to the Russian media. In this case, it can't even be called propaganda, when they make use of it. No need to make up anything... The damage is done. To me it is surprising the backslash in the west isn't bigger about this. In Germany we forced our president for way less to resign. Again, even if there would be some reasons making Hunter Biden the perfect choice... the lack of political sensitivity is striking and should disqualify anyone from being the Vice President of the most important global power. edit: And yes... we still have our former chancellor Gerhard Schröder being best buddy with Putin... And while I think, he is really damaging the German position, he isn't in power anymore, which makes it hard to punish him. Even though it would be well deserved. This wasn't a Western takeover of some Ukrainian company after the Ukraine crisis. The board of directors was all Westerners well before the Ukraine crisis source. Don't over-dramatize the situation. This is how things work in the Western world. This is how things work in all capitalist countries- Germany included. Rich politicians with business connections run companies, recommend relatives/friends, and this goes very much across borders. It's not egalitarian, never has been and never will be. Yes, in some countries there are more checks to ensure friends/politicians aren't preferentially considered for running a company but it's still more or less how things work. Power, politics, and business go hand in hand. edit: I sounded a bit harsh in my post so sorry  Also, let me make clear I don't like the system and of course there is a lot of corruption of this nature in the USA. In Ukraine it's even more endemic and it is *way* more damaging to Ukraine. | ||
|
mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
I never said, that I think, this isn't usual business... But usually people at least try to hide such shit and don't ruin their own (countries) credibility entirely. Oh, and check the average wealth of german MOP and US senators/congress men  | ||
|
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On May 15 2014 19:39 mahrgell wrote: And still, if your vice president is so awful at hiding his personal motivations in the matter, he is actively fueling the Russian media, and severely damaging the western position. But usually people at least try to hide such shit and don't ruin their own (countries) credibility entirely. What's the point of being vice president if you can't make some money off of it. /sarcasm BTW, what Schroeder did was even worse. This is corruption, plain and simple. What Schroeder did was treason. | ||
|
Silvanel
Poland4741 Posts
| ||
|
Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
A discussion between Kolomoyskiy, Dnepropetrovsk governor, and Tsarev, one of the leaders of separatists. They reffer to each other as "ты" suggesting they are either friends or know each other pretty well. Kolomoyskyi: Hi. Tsarov: Hi. Kolomoyskyi: Where are you at the moment? Still there? Tsarov: Yes. I'm still here. Kolomoyskyi: How are you getting on? Tsarov: Quite OK. Kolomoyskyi: Well. I guess there's some huge trouble. There was a Jew from the Dnipropetrovsk Jewish community. He got killed. Tsarov: What happened there? Kolomoyskyi: Well, some Jew from Dnipropetrovsk Jewish community got killed. And I'm in synagogue at the moment. Tsarov: What was he doing there? Kolomoyskyi: Well, it doesn't actually matter what he was doing. The thing is that your head costs too much now. Fuck, they give huge money for your head, $1 million. Tsarov: Mine? Kolomoyskyi: Yours, yes. And they said they would be searching everywhere. So I just said it. I wanted to reveal it for you that you'd better lead it on in Moscow. Stay where you are just. Don't leave anywhere. Tsarov: There's one thing I wanted to tell you. In Africa there are some..... Kolomoyskyi: Tomorrow they will be just catching your people here. Tsarov: There's such.... some poison in Africa Kolomoyskyi: Look, I don't give a shit what they've got there in Africa. Stop it. Stop telling stories. Now, I'm telling you that there was praying in synagogue before Shabbat. We were praying for that Jew killed in Mariupol.... Fuck it. Tsarov: And so.... Kolomoyskyi: And they said it was Tsarov who's to be blamed for everything. Fuck. And people close to you will be the first in the list of many wanted tomorrow. So, tell them they'd better get out from here.... We'll be hanging them right in the square.... fuck it. Yea, I put it to you that it is necessary to say to Markov not to arrive here, in Ukraine. On no account! Hallo! [probably another part of the conversation] Tsarov: Don't try to call me up. Don't make calls to me, Ihor! Kolomoyskyi: I shouldn't telephone you, eh? All right! Bye. | ||
|
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
| ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 15 2014 20:56 Cheerio wrote: The video was supposedly intercepted by former SBU officers who are now aligning themselves with separatistic movements. The talk took place in late hours of the 9th May. Uploaders claim some of the parts were cut out to prevent implications. [all of this is in the details to the video] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvixppJqOvE#t=60 A discussion between Kolomoyskiy, Dnepropetrovsk governor, and Tsarev, one of the leaders of separatists. They reffer to each other as "ты" suggesting they are either friends or know each other pretty well. Kolomoyskyi: Hi. Tsarov: Hi. Kolomoyskyi: Where are you at the moment? Still there? Tsarov: Yes. I'm still here. Kolomoyskyi: How are you getting on? Tsarov: Quite OK. Kolomoyskyi: Well. I guess there's some huge trouble. There was a Jew from the Dnipropetrovsk Jewish community. He got killed. Tsarov: What happened there? Kolomoyskyi: Well, some Jew from Dnipropetrovsk Jewish community got killed. And I'm in synagogue at the moment. Tsarov: What was he doing there? Kolomoyskyi: Well, it doesn't actually matter what he was doing. The thing is that your head costs too much now. Fuck, they give huge money for your head, $1 million. Tsarov: Mine? Kolomoyskyi: Yours, yes. And they said they would be searching everywhere. So I just said it. I wanted to reveal it for you that you'd better lead it on in Moscow. Stay where you are just. Don't leave anywhere. Tsarov: There's one thing I wanted to tell you. In Africa there are some..... Kolomoyskyi: Tomorrow they will be just catching your people here. Tsarov: There's such.... some poison in Africa Kolomoyskyi: Look, I don't give a shit what they've got there in Africa. Stop it. Stop telling stories. Now, I'm telling you that there was praying in synagogue before Shabbat. We were praying for that Jew killed in Mariupol.... Fuck it. Tsarov: And so.... Kolomoyskyi: And they said it was Tsarov who's to be blamed for everything. Fuck. And people close to you will be the first in the list of many wanted tomorrow. So, tell them they'd better get out from here.... We'll be hanging them right in the square.... fuck it. Yea, I put it to you that it is necessary to say to Markov not to arrive here, in Ukraine. On no account! Hallo! [probably another part of the conversation] Tsarov: Don't try to call me up. Don't make calls to me, Ihor! Kolomoyskyi: I shouldn't telephone you, eh? All right! Bye. Africa? What? I'm confused. Please explain. Also, reference to Moscow? Please explain. | ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
SLAVIANSK, Ukraine/MOSCOW (Reuters) - He is a man with three names, sought by Ukrainian intelligence as the top Russian operative in the separatist east. He moves through the streets in a black Mercedes, his face with pencil moustache hidden behind tinted windows, and his aim is to "destroy" Ukrainian forces that venture onto his territory. In a leaflet distributed this week in the rebel Donetsk region, "Colonel Igor Strelkov" assumed command of all rebel forces there and called for Russian army help to ward off what he calls the threat from the Kiev "junta" and from NATO. To Kiev and its Western allies, Strelkov is living proof that Moscow is behind the uprising in eastern Ukraine, despite its denials, and trying to replay the scenario that saw it seize the Crimea province in March. The separatists have said little about his identity. He is known to the fighters he commands as "Strelok" - "the Shooter". Kiev says he is actually an agent of Russia's GRU military intelligence. Residents of a Moscow suburb say he is a mild-mannered neighbor they have known for years as Igor Girkin. Strelkov has been based in the main rebel redoubt Slaviansk since fighting flared in the east, leading the "green men" - armed fighters in uniforms without official insignia - who have turned the town of 130,000 people into a fortified bastion. .... Kiev says the green men are Russian-controlled agents; Moscow says they are "self defense" volunteers, and denies any of its spies or special forces are operating on the ground. The West says Moscow's denial, as in the case of Crimea in March, is nonsense. The European Union added Strelkov to its sanctions list on April 29, describing him as a staff member of Russia's GRU military intelligence. It said he also worked as a security aid for Sergei Aksyonov, the once-obscure head of the Crimean Greco-Roman wrestling club who declared himself leader of Crimea when armed men seized its regional headquarters in late February. Aksyonov is now the official leader of Crimea as a Russian region. But even on the EU's sanctions list, the full identity of Strelkov remains mysterious: when Brussels published the list with his name, it left his place and date of birth blank. To Kiev, Strelkov's tactics show that Moscow aims to repeat the Crimea operation: armed men seize government buildings, proclaim themselves in charge, declare independence and proclaim their own militia to be the official security forces. Ukraine's security service has released numerous recordings of what it says is Strelkov taking orders and advice from handlers in Moscow. Those recordings cannot be verified. | ||
|
soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
On May 14 2014 08:09 lord_nibbler wrote: This conflict is about human rights, I tell you human rights! Nothing to see here: Hunter Biden (son of Joe) is the new director of Ukraine’s largest private gas producer ignored for 6 pages, not bad | ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
Perhaps Igor Girkin/Strelkov happens to be a tourist who just happened to be in Ukraine at the right time. And then on the spur of the moment joined the native Ukrainian separatists.. Why would the Russians ever send in GRU agents into Ukraine? Obviously it makes no sense. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands22054 Posts
Not ignored. The company has been in western hands with western directors for a while. So its hardly something out of the ordinary. | ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
"The man is a hero whether he us a colonel or a corporal, he is leading our boys to victory," said Fyodor Dyalnoy, a 63-year-old pensioner. "So what if he came from Russia? If Russia could only send us more people like him." Mihkail Nikiforov, 28, a salesman said it was absurd to consider Strelkov a foreign agent, since Donetsk was rightfully part of Russia: "How can he be an agent on his own soil? It is clear this is Russia, as it should be." "I believe he is a good officer, he put some order in these troops and made an army out of them." Still, not everyone is happy to have the green men around, or their mysterious leader. Irina, 39, who declined to give her surname, said she wanted "them and all these armed people and this war out of this town." She added: "I don't care if he is a Russian or a Martian or whatever he is." | ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
Shortly after the world found out about the massacre in Houla, Syria, in which more than a hundred civilians, including dozens of children, were killed, the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, met in Moscow with his British counterpart, William Hague. At the press conference afterward, the two spoke of a “constructive” meeting, but everything about the event indicated otherwise. According to reporters there, the atmosphere was tense, and Lavrov, the tanned and smarmy face of Russian diplomacy, was in fine form. He spoke, on one hand, of avoiding “all-out civil war and collapse” in Syria, but he also talked of shadowy foreign (read: American) interference. He also dropped some characteristically colorful quotes: “It takes two to dance—though this seems less like a tango and more like a disco where several dozens are taking part.” More than anything, though, Lavrov insisted on toeing the Syrian government line, suggesting that who had killed all those women and children was far from clear, since some died by artillery—which only the Syrian government has—and others execution-style. Who could have done that? “We are dealing with a situation in which both sides evidently had a hand in the deaths of innocent citizens,” Lavrov said, contradicting the accounts of witnesses who blamed government forces and paramilitaries. He added, “Guilt must be decided objectively.” Insisting on “objectivity” has become a favorite Kremlin weapon against outside criticism. Blaming the West, pointing out its flaws (the famous tactic known as “whataboutism”), searching for elaborate cabals behind even the fairly obvious—all of these are tried-and-true tactics, but, in recent years, “objectivity” has joined them. Russia Today, the Kremlin-financed English-language news channel, for example, operates under the slogan “Question more.” It is an admirable motto for any news organization, but in this case it is a bit like Fox’s claim of being “fair and balanced.” Consider an infamous advertising campaign that RT ran in the U.S. and England, in 2009, superimposing symbols that were seemingly diametrically opposed to each other, and then asking a rhetorical question that equated them. One blurred together the faces of Barack Obama and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and asked, “Who poses the greater nuclear threat?” It’s a clever device, substituting counteritutiveness for objectivity, and it’s something one encounters a lot in conversations in Russia, a hairy land of slippery facts where Occam’s Razor doesn’t stand a chance. What happens if you turn X upside-down, and discover it’s actually a Q? The problem, of course, is that Q may not really be the answer, and that you end up in a small epistemological hell. But it certainly makes for good rhetorical theatre. More often than not, however, it’s used, especially in the hands of Kremlin officials and the state press, as Russia’s answer to Western moralizing. When an international crisis strikes, leaning on “objectivity” allows Russia to present itself as the parent in a room of screaming, disoriented children. In fairness, Russia has had some wins; the Russian government appealed to objectivity of evidence in the runup to the Iraq War, and they were right: perhaps the Americans should have paused and taken a couple of deep breaths. “I like being counterintuitive,” Russia Today host Peter Lavelle told me a couple years ago. “Being mainstream has been very dangerous for the West.” | ||
|
marigoldran
219 Posts
| ||
| ||
