|
|
On May 14 2014 19:06 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 18:59 PaleMan wrote:
Habibi, your propaganda does not worl on ppl who visited Baltic states and have friends there (like me)
Estonia and Lithuania are starving, Latvia does a little bit better What? Not sure if serious, I don't even...
Well to support your claim, the Baltic states due appear to have more hunger than other countries in Europe. Based on the Global Hunger Index only the former Soviet Union, Slovakia, and the Balkans have any sort of hunger. However *Russia* also has hunger according to the map.
http://www.ifpri.org/book-8018/ourwork/researcharea/global-hunger-index
|
^ basicaly every country in the former soviet block has hunger problems.
hey, paleman, thanks for the hunger, bro.
|
Russian Federation1953 Posts
On May 14 2014 19:53 mdb wrote:
^ basicaly every country in the former soviet block has hunger problems.
hey, paleman, thanks for the hunger, bro.
np, will bring even more
you just wait
|
On May 14 2014 20:08 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 19:53 mdb wrote:
^ basicaly every country in the former soviet block has hunger problems.
hey, paleman, thanks for the hunger, bro. np, will bring even more you just wait
and i got banned for pointing the middle finger to a guy that was blabing about the slavic empire... just wow
|
On May 14 2014 17:22 mijagi182 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 13 2014 21:36 mijagi182 wrote:On May 13 2014 20:11 PaleMan wrote:
looks like estonian economy will gain a huge boost supported by MCs money This post is even funnier given that Estonian GDP per capita is 2 times bigger than russian. They are almost the same, actually. Russia right on our heels. *** ^ Has it been a week already, *sigh*. It was actually nice and constructive here for a while. Interesting. Is this data false or you declined 40% since 2013? http://pl.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp-per-capitahttp://pl.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-per-capita
That actually does look wrong, the largest gap I can find (PPP: 23k v 17k) comes with IMF methodology. Source. Unfortunately I cannot understand the webpage so I don't know what numbers they are using.
***
So now we know where that fake Blackwater video came from:
|
On May 14 2014 18:59 PaleMan wrote:
Habibi, your propaganda does not worl on ppl who visited Baltic states and have friends there (like me)
Estonia and Lithuania are starving, Latvia does a little bit better
I'm from Lithuania and i can say your arguments are totally bullshit. We'r definetly starving no more than Russia. Have you even been to Kaliningrad for example? People there wish they lived like Lithuanians do.
|
There are some other gems in that liveblog:
8:20 GMT: Russia’s Investigative Committee has started prosecution proceedings in the case of the alleged attempted murder of an RT cameraman, the committee’s spokesman Vladimir Markin announced.
Fyodor Zavaleykov, 23, a stringer working for RT’s Ruptly video agency, was shot in Ukraine’s Mariupol while covering the Ukrainian troops’ assault on the city’s police HQ on May 9.
The committee is investigating the incident as intent to murder and a violent attempt to stop a media professional from performing his duty, which is a criminal offense in Russia.
|
On May 14 2014 20:53 lepshis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 18:59 PaleMan wrote:
Habibi, your propaganda does not worl on ppl who visited Baltic states and have friends there (like me)
Estonia and Lithuania are starving, Latvia does a little bit better I'm from Lithuania and i can say your arguments are totally bullshit. We'r definetly starving no more than Russia. Have you even been to Kaliningrad for example? People there wish they lived like Lithuanians do.
I haven't noticed you in the thread before, so I assume you're new. Paleman isn't worth responding to.
|
Russian Federation1953 Posts
|
Considering the source im going to just lol a bit.
No shit this all started when Madian toppled the existing government. The fact that China never once backed Russia but instead stood along the sidelines tells anyone who actually knows anything about diplomatic relations all they need to know.
|
|
|
I once read someone sum up the crisis like this:
It started when pro-government forces decided to shoot protestors and rioters.
Then it ended when Yanukovych fled the country and a transition government was chosen.
Then it started again when Russia invaded Crimea.
Then it ended when Ukraine troops left the peninsula peacefully.
Then it started again when pro-Russian separatists took over government buildings and terrorized civilians
|
Russia has said China backed them multiple times but China never once actually said the same.
|
China does not want to back Russia publicly. Doing so would cause problems internally within Tibet and other regions who might consider "independence".
|
On May 14 2014 20:37 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 17:22 mijagi182 wrote:On May 13 2014 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 13 2014 21:36 mijagi182 wrote:On May 13 2014 20:11 PaleMan wrote:
looks like estonian economy will gain a huge boost supported by MCs money This post is even funnier given that Estonian GDP per capita is 2 times bigger than russian. They are almost the same, actually. Russia right on our heels. *** ^ Has it been a week already, *sigh*. It was actually nice and constructive here for a while. Interesting. Is this data false or you declined 40% since 2013? http://pl.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp-per-capitahttp://pl.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-per-capita That actually does look wrong, the largest gap I can find (PPP: 23k v 17k) comes with IMF methodology. Source. Unfortunately I cannot understand the webpage so I don't know what numbers they are using.
1. That's GDP PPP not GDP
2. Just change pl. to www. the site is not polish
3. nevermind
|
On May 14 2014 11:19 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 10:53 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 10:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 10:20 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 09:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 09:29 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 09:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On May 14 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 08:36 nunez wrote:
[quote]
i think it largely depends on how commited kiev is to asserting its legitimacy in south and east and how much leeway they are going to give to their henchmen. until then (if they commit) we'll get to see hooke's law in action. It also largely depends on how much Putin wants sanctions. We are putting on sanctions without Russia doing anything. We are placing the entirety of the [successful] actions of the revolutionaries against Ukrainian political and military efforts on Russia, which is little more than an extremely immature justification to put sanctions. I mean, it isn't Crimea anymore. It's not like Russia conquered Kiev, that we are pushing for more sanctions. But I don't think the sanctions were ever a matter of "justice." The insurgents hurt US interests (or more specifically, help Russian interests which is against US policy), and putting the blame on Russia, and we're using its toy poodles in NATO to push sanctions with it. Fortunately for us, we are unsanctionable. We can cause any degree of death and destruction for the most twisted of reasons and not face any repercussions. Unfortunately for Russia, they don't run most of Europe to some degree or another. We can sanction them without them even doing anything. hahaha. If Putin understood this, he would be a wiser man. Don't forget the fake troop withdraw from the border. I would say there continued presence is one of the main reasons why sanctions are continuing without any apparent action from Russia. Or Putin asking for the vote to be postponed only to allow votes in Moscow. ect ect. The push for sanctions appear to come whenever the separatists gain more ground. That's about it. IMHO the overwhelmingly reason is just that we want to hurt Russia, plain and simple. These sanctions are because the separatists are successful. Unsurprisingly considering how terribly unintelligent most politicians are, this translates to "Russia is directly backing the separatists with tons of arms and money and therefore this is Russia's doing", which is laughably false. So Russia is getting sanctions because Ukraine has one of the most most pathetic military forces I've seen. The reality is, even US politicians are not THAT stupid. Rather, conspiracy theories about direct Russian intervention are a good excuse to hurt Russia, so why not. Maybe it's the non-partisan, non-jingoist person in me, but I'd be yelling at Ukraine for having a shit military, not at the Russians for laughing at Ukraine's military having serious problems with random losers with literally nothing better to do with their time. It's literally like someone punching someone else in the face because the assailant had an argument with his girlfriend. Maybe we should sanction the separatists themselves? At least that option is far more logical. Without Russian involvement there wouldn't be enough separatists to take over a McDonalds, let alone cities. A lot of people rely on Russian state media for their news, so all they hear is basically what Paleman keeps repeating over and over. Junta this, holocaust for russian speakers that. Ah, so the culprit is Russian media. Perhaps we should have sanctioned them then. Maybe replace them with Fox news or something, why not. But, we're blaming the media of a foreign country (foreign to Ukraine) for practically mind-controlling tons and tons of people. People in Ukraine must be dumb as nails to believe absurd things from the news from a foreign country like that. So, you have discovered the whole problem. Russian media. Well, let's sanction the Russian media. Wait, Ukrainian media is about as bad. We may as well sanction Ukrainian media too. lol. But that would be being fair. I'd make a horrible politician. lol you didn't have to mention him. That's a summon sign ya know. But seriously, I don't think Russian media that has existed there since radio/TV did is to blame. There's probably other Russian 'actions' more prominent than have media exist, so this was a bit confusing. But I say, why not sanction the separatists? They are the ones doing things. We shouldn't use the incompetence of Ukraine as a justification to slap Russia. We should either sanction the separatists or tell Ukraine to get its shit together (it seriously needs to). These are by far the most significant factors at ply here in this revolutionary scenario. You're vastly underestimating the power of propaganda. By acknowledging and hailing the 'separatists', they have turned opportunist terrorists into heroic freedom fighting thugs and turned any possible Ukrainian government (other than one approved by old Vladdy) into a terrifying machine which eats people who speak russian. Granted, I doubt that Russia really realized how effective this would be when they started their propaganda war. All they needed was a few hundred people asking for help in Crimea and they could move in, gain a new military port and then promptly forget that the more worthless parts of Ukraine exist. Unfortunately they stirred the beehive too much and Russia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Russia will likely never have favorable ties with western Ukraine again, which was apparently worth it so they could compare military dick sizes with the US in the Black Sea. In case you didn't see the place next to my name, I live in America. I know the power of propaganda first-hand. When I was in my early teens, I was pretty " 'Murican ", entirely the result of media, before I grew a brain. But you're putting the entire burden on Russian media. Not on a million other factors that influenced the separatists. This was Russian propaganda for Russians, at that. If people in Ukraine prefer Russian media to their own, that's fine. Not to say Ukraine hasn't had infinite propaganda themselves, and they use the "T" word more than George Bush did, but it's just that they suck at it, even within their own country, so much so, that as you claim, foreign media (Russian) for a foreign country (Russia) is mind-controlling tons and tons of guys in Ukraine. I guess we can also say Libyan Islamic terrorists (I'll use the same word you did) were inspired to overthrow a secular regime because American media painted them as heroes? That must be American media's fault! The US must also be responsible for the civil war in Syria as well, by this line of logic! (Hmm, or maybe it was because they were jihadists and a secular govt. of any form is the greatest evil in their eyes) So apparently Russians have secret mind-control powers that no one else has, that even after telling separatists time and time again to go fuck themselves whenever they ask for help (which they do all the time, and complain to journalists all the time about how Russians don't help them), they continue to serve Rodina-mat because the Russians have mind-control power. Yeah, the separatists have ZERO other motivations... right. This is all a Russian conspiracy. The Russians set up everything. Had nothing to do with the timeline of events in the country that upset a lot of people, including a lot of impoverished guys like these who were already pissed off as is. You forget that the separatists were out and about before any media knew anything about them. You can't paint anyone as "heroes" until they're already doing stuff. By the time that happened, those separatists had already taken a ton of land and were digging in to defend against Ukrainian forces. It's obvious which came first. Unless you're implying that Russian media can also predict the future, and was calling the separatists heroes before there were separatists? Because the fact of the matter is, because anyone knew there were separatists, there were more than enough separatists to capture a bunch of cities, not just a McDonald's. That's when others, including Russian media, actually took notice of them. So tell me, why don't we sanction Russian media? I myself am terrified at this revelation of their mind-control and future-telling abilities. Did I ever say that Russia was the sole actor responsible for separatism in Eastern Ukraine? If I did, I was wrong and I apologize. Strawmanning on that front yields you nothing. Yes I know the country you're from, which is why I know you have to be naive to think that Russia ended up with Crimea by coincidence; they're playing the same game we are. Would you care to explain your views on how the separatist movement started and and grew such a large foothold? Don't apologize. I was just extrapolating to make silly comments about mind-control abilities ;D But yes, I do know the power of media. How did they start? Really angry guys pushed by a radical event (a coup) to make radical actions of their own. How they grew such a large foothold? Their initial success was increasingly huge, and has yielded many followers. It's becoming a movement of such a degree that it's inspiring people to be a part of it, especially other angry guys. They can't even enter a town with the local police force either disbanding or joining ranks with them. Unless I'm mistaken, I think even Ukrainian soldiers have deserted over the past weeks (I don't know if any joined the separatists, or just called it quits). And otherwise, at the very least, there's other angry guys willing to join them. Of course they're gaining ground. They're acting as the defenders against a coup government, and when they were attacked by Ukrainian forces, they probably said "See? They're trying to subjugate us", making their cause more accepted. Early May is a big thing in eastern Europe. This revolution has been going on since a couple months ago, and May is a big thing for them. By May 9, which is an important public holiday and one of the most important days of the year for any sort of politically-motivated people / patriots in some of these ex-Soviet countries, it couldn't be a bigger morale boost for them to see how much of a "large foothold" they have, thus inspiring more people. As far as I've read, they certainly celebrated the holiday. Obvious symbols have been seen for weeks now, most prominently the Ribbon of St. George, used to commemorate WW2. Big symbolism/morale thing. In the fight with Ukrainian military forces, they're having a lot more fighting success than anyone would expect. This is only showing to other people on the fence that there is hope in their cause. They have done tons and tons of things to gain ground and followers, far outside anything to do with Russia or Russian media. This may sound crazy, but Ukrainians and Russians are a lot more similar than people think. These eastern Ukrainian revolutionaries have many of the same cultural, historical, and other things. Calling people you don't like a "fascist" isn't just a Russian thing, it's also a Ukrainian thing. Interestingly, the new Ukrainian government has adopted American rhetoric by calling everyone they don't like (eg. these separatists) "terrorists". lol I do state that say Russian media has added "fuel to the fire", but the "accomplishments" of the separatists themselves are what started the "fire" and have contributed enough "fuel" to make the whole of non-Russian Europe independent of Russian fuels.
I think thats the reality as well. I dont know how do you manage to gather this on your own despite the different media opinions all around, even in this thread.
Also, i dont recall now a name of a guy who was talking history and how ukraine got much older historical indentity, well that identity is russian as well, you see there were no ukraine or russian back then, Kievan Rus is the closes thing, So both Russia and Ukraine draw they identity from there, not everyone, everyone decides that for themselves, some Ukrainians or some Russians forget that and move closer to 18 or 19 century or whatever year they like to consider more appropiate to be considered they past, funny right ? We all choose what to consider our past. Most of the time people choose the past with most glorius events and golden times for they country, Its Kievan Rus or USSR for most people i know, era of Cossacs also is quiete popular if you were born in Ukraine, Russians got more options to choose from, yet most choose that past common with Belarus or Ukraine, for support mostly, this is my understanding however.
|
On May 14 2014 22:58 mijagi182 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 20:37 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 14 2014 17:22 mijagi182 wrote:On May 13 2014 21:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On May 13 2014 21:36 mijagi182 wrote:On May 13 2014 20:11 PaleMan wrote:
looks like estonian economy will gain a huge boost supported by MCs money This post is even funnier given that Estonian GDP per capita is 2 times bigger than russian. They are almost the same, actually. Russia right on our heels. *** ^ Has it been a week already, *sigh*. It was actually nice and constructive here for a while. Interesting. Is this data false or you declined 40% since 2013? http://pl.tradingeconomics.com/estonia/gdp-per-capitahttp://pl.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-per-capita That actually does look wrong, the largest gap I can find (PPP: 23k v 17k) comes with IMF methodology. Source. Unfortunately I cannot understand the webpage so I don't know what numbers they are using. 1. That's GDP PPP not GDP 2. Just change pl. to www. the site is not polish 3. nevermind
As for 2, whoops  But they seem to use World Bank data, they just have Russian GDP per capita messed up (PPP works out). The actual World Bank data can be found here: WB
|
+ Show Spoiler +On May 14 2014 23:01 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2014 11:19 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 10:53 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 10:31 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 10:20 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 09:40 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 09:29 Jormundr wrote:On May 14 2014 09:15 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On May 14 2014 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On May 14 2014 09:00 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
[quote]
It also largely depends on how much Putin wants sanctions. We are putting on sanctions without Russia doing anything. We are placing the entirety of the [successful] actions of the revolutionaries against Ukrainian political and military efforts on Russia, which is little more than an extremely immature justification to put sanctions. I mean, it isn't Crimea anymore. It's not like Russia conquered Kiev, that we are pushing for more sanctions.
But I don't think the sanctions were ever a matter of "justice." The insurgents hurt US interests (or more specifically, help Russian interests which is against US policy), and putting the blame on Russia, and we're using its toy poodles in NATO to push sanctions with it. Fortunately for us, we are unsanctionable. We can cause any degree of death and destruction for the most twisted of reasons and not face any repercussions. Unfortunately for Russia, they don't run most of Europe to some degree or another. We can sanction them without them even doing anything. hahaha. If Putin understood this, he would be a wiser man. Don't forget the fake troop withdraw from the border. I would say there continued presence is one of the main reasons why sanctions are continuing without any apparent action from Russia. Or Putin asking for the vote to be postponed only to allow votes in Moscow. ect ect. The push for sanctions appear to come whenever the separatists gain more ground. That's about it. IMHO the overwhelmingly reason is just that we want to hurt Russia, plain and simple. These sanctions are because the separatists are successful. Unsurprisingly considering how terribly unintelligent most politicians are, this translates to "Russia is directly backing the separatists with tons of arms and money and therefore this is Russia's doing", which is laughably false. So Russia is getting sanctions because Ukraine has one of the most most pathetic military forces I've seen. The reality is, even US politicians are not THAT stupid. Rather, conspiracy theories about direct Russian intervention are a good excuse to hurt Russia, so why not. Maybe it's the non-partisan, non-jingoist person in me, but I'd be yelling at Ukraine for having a shit military, not at the Russians for laughing at Ukraine's military having serious problems with random losers with literally nothing better to do with their time. It's literally like someone punching someone else in the face because the assailant had an argument with his girlfriend. Maybe we should sanction the separatists themselves? At least that option is far more logical. Without Russian involvement there wouldn't be enough separatists to take over a McDonalds, let alone cities. A lot of people rely on Russian state media for their news, so all they hear is basically what Paleman keeps repeating over and over. Junta this, holocaust for russian speakers that. Ah, so the culprit is Russian media. Perhaps we should have sanctioned them then. Maybe replace them with Fox news or something, why not. But, we're blaming the media of a foreign country (foreign to Ukraine) for practically mind-controlling tons and tons of people. People in Ukraine must be dumb as nails to believe absurd things from the news from a foreign country like that. So, you have discovered the whole problem. Russian media. Well, let's sanction the Russian media. Wait, Ukrainian media is about as bad. We may as well sanction Ukrainian media too. lol. But that would be being fair. I'd make a horrible politician. lol you didn't have to mention him. That's a summon sign ya know. But seriously, I don't think Russian media that has existed there since radio/TV did is to blame. There's probably other Russian 'actions' more prominent than have media exist, so this was a bit confusing. But I say, why not sanction the separatists? They are the ones doing things. We shouldn't use the incompetence of Ukraine as a justification to slap Russia. We should either sanction the separatists or tell Ukraine to get its shit together (it seriously needs to). These are by far the most significant factors at ply here in this revolutionary scenario. You're vastly underestimating the power of propaganda. By acknowledging and hailing the 'separatists', they have turned opportunist terrorists into heroic freedom fighting thugs and turned any possible Ukrainian government (other than one approved by old Vladdy) into a terrifying machine which eats people who speak russian. Granted, I doubt that Russia really realized how effective this would be when they started their propaganda war. All they needed was a few hundred people asking for help in Crimea and they could move in, gain a new military port and then promptly forget that the more worthless parts of Ukraine exist. Unfortunately they stirred the beehive too much and Russia is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Russia will likely never have favorable ties with western Ukraine again, which was apparently worth it so they could compare military dick sizes with the US in the Black Sea. In case you didn't see the place next to my name, I live in America. I know the power of propaganda first-hand. When I was in my early teens, I was pretty " 'Murican ", entirely the result of media, before I grew a brain. But you're putting the entire burden on Russian media. Not on a million other factors that influenced the separatists. This was Russian propaganda for Russians, at that. If people in Ukraine prefer Russian media to their own, that's fine. Not to say Ukraine hasn't had infinite propaganda themselves, and they use the "T" word more than George Bush did, but it's just that they suck at it, even within their own country, so much so, that as you claim, foreign media (Russian) for a foreign country (Russia) is mind-controlling tons and tons of guys in Ukraine. I guess we can also say Libyan Islamic terrorists (I'll use the same word you did) were inspired to overthrow a secular regime because American media painted them as heroes? That must be American media's fault! The US must also be responsible for the civil war in Syria as well, by this line of logic! (Hmm, or maybe it was because they were jihadists and a secular govt. of any form is the greatest evil in their eyes) So apparently Russians have secret mind-control powers that no one else has, that even after telling separatists time and time again to go fuck themselves whenever they ask for help (which they do all the time, and complain to journalists all the time about how Russians don't help them), they continue to serve Rodina-mat because the Russians have mind-control power. Yeah, the separatists have ZERO other motivations... right. This is all a Russian conspiracy. The Russians set up everything. Had nothing to do with the timeline of events in the country that upset a lot of people, including a lot of impoverished guys like these who were already pissed off as is. You forget that the separatists were out and about before any media knew anything about them. You can't paint anyone as "heroes" until they're already doing stuff. By the time that happened, those separatists had already taken a ton of land and were digging in to defend against Ukrainian forces. It's obvious which came first. Unless you're implying that Russian media can also predict the future, and was calling the separatists heroes before there were separatists? Because the fact of the matter is, because anyone knew there were separatists, there were more than enough separatists to capture a bunch of cities, not just a McDonald's. That's when others, including Russian media, actually took notice of them. So tell me, why don't we sanction Russian media? I myself am terrified at this revelation of their mind-control and future-telling abilities. Did I ever say that Russia was the sole actor responsible for separatism in Eastern Ukraine? If I did, I was wrong and I apologize. Strawmanning on that front yields you nothing. Yes I know the country you're from, which is why I know you have to be naive to think that Russia ended up with Crimea by coincidence; they're playing the same game we are. Would you care to explain your views on how the separatist movement started and and grew such a large foothold? Don't apologize. I was just extrapolating to make silly comments about mind-control abilities ;D But yes, I do know the power of media. How did they start? Really angry guys pushed by a radical event (a coup) to make radical actions of their own. How they grew such a large foothold? Their initial success was increasingly huge, and has yielded many followers. It's becoming a movement of such a degree that it's inspiring people to be a part of it, especially other angry guys. They can't even enter a town with the local police force either disbanding or joining ranks with them. Unless I'm mistaken, I think even Ukrainian soldiers have deserted over the past weeks (I don't know if any joined the separatists, or just called it quits). And otherwise, at the very least, there's other angry guys willing to join them. Of course they're gaining ground. They're acting as the defenders against a coup government, and when they were attacked by Ukrainian forces, they probably said "See? They're trying to subjugate us", making their cause more accepted. Early May is a big thing in eastern Europe. This revolution has been going on since a couple months ago, and May is a big thing for them. By May 9, which is an important public holiday and one of the most important days of the year for any sort of politically-motivated people / patriots in some of these ex-Soviet countries, it couldn't be a bigger morale boost for them to see how much of a "large foothold" they have, thus inspiring more people. As far as I've read, they certainly celebrated the holiday. Obvious symbols have been seen for weeks now, most prominently the Ribbon of St. George, used to commemorate WW2. Big symbolism/morale thing. In the fight with Ukrainian military forces, they're having a lot more fighting success than anyone would expect. This is only showing to other people on the fence that there is hope in their cause. They have done tons and tons of things to gain ground and followers, far outside anything to do with Russia or Russian media. This may sound crazy, but Ukrainians and Russians are a lot more similar than people think. These eastern Ukrainian revolutionaries have many of the same cultural, historical, and other things. Calling people you don't like a "fascist" isn't just a Russian thing, it's also a Ukrainian thing. Interestingly, the new Ukrainian government has adopted American rhetoric by calling everyone they don't like (eg. these separatists) "terrorists". lol I do state that say Russian media has added "fuel to the fire", but the "accomplishments" of the separatists themselves are what started the "fire" and have contributed enough "fuel" to make the whole of non-Russian Europe independent of Russian fuels. I think thats the reality as well. I dont know how do you manage to gather this on your own despite the different media opinions all around, even in this thread. Also, i dont recall now a name of a guy who was talking history and how ukraine got much older historical indentity, well that identity is russian as well, you see there were no ukraine or russian back then, Kievan Rus is the closes thing, So both Russia and Ukraine draw they identity from there, not everyone, everyone decides that for themselves, some Ukrainians or some Russians forget that and move closer to 18 or 19 century or whatever year they like to consider more appropiate to be considered they past, funny right ? We all choose what to consider our past. Most of the time people choose the past with most glorius events and golden times for they country, Its Kievan Rus or USSR for most people i know, era of Cossacs also is quiete popular if you were born in Ukraine, Russians got more options to choose from, yet most choose that past common with Belarus or Ukraine, for support mostly, this is my understanding however.
Very nice .
|
@Judicator
Calling people you don't like a "fascist" isn't just a Russian thing, it's also a Ukrainian thing. Interestingly, the new Ukrainian government has adopted American rhetoric by calling everyone they don't like (eg. these separatists) "terrorists". lol
You are right that that calling enemies "fascists" is more of a Soviet thing then a Russian thing - it basically goes back to the last 'great' Soviet victory over the Nazis. So USSR propaganda kept reliving that victory for the past 70 years and thus people still have the image of "fascist" in their minds.
As to the whole 'terrorist' thing, it really depends on your definition. If you think of terrorists as political *mass-murderers* then the separatists aren't terrorists. If you think of terrorists as an "non-state para-military group" then they are terrorists. However, there is more to it: the separrorists have abducted/beaten journalists, killed *some* civilians on purpose and by accident, and are enforcing their will on the part of the population that doesn't want their 'help'. You could thus label them as a "non-state para-military group that terrorizes part of the local population". Is that a terrorist organization? Depends on your definition again... There is also the difference of whether they are local. The local ones could be argued to be protecting the interest of part of their population. The non-local are closer to any definition of terrorists since they are not 'protecting local' interests, but have more overt political aims.
If something similar happened in any other country, that country would also label them terrorists. So let's not dumb it down to the Ukrainian government "adopting America rhetoric by calling everyone they don't like terrorists". To Ukraine, they are terrorists not because they don't like them, but because they are terrorizing the state of Ukraine.
Russian media has added "fuel to the fire", but the "accomplishments" of the separatists themselves are what started the "fire"
Well your chronology is completely wrong- Russian media was clearly demonizing Euromaidan/Ukrainian government well before the separatists in the East started doing anything.
I really think it is improbable that the separatists would have done anything if it was only EuroMaidan that happened. Remember that there was the immediate precedence of Crimea - there was little separatism in E. Ukraine before Crimea was annexed. If EuroMaidan alone started the fire, would they not be advocating for separatism *before* Crimea was annexed?? If you add to that a 'suggestive' presence of Russian troops on the border, the E. Ukrainians seeing a very anti-Western version of the events, and a small partially-non-local para-military group (that group of 10-20 men that was accused of being Russian special ops, but actual were a mix of Russian cossacks, Crimeans, and locals), a much more clearer picture is painted. A lot of the initial takeovers were done by this small group of para-military.
This wasn't a simple response to Euromaidan, but a movement that took advantage of E. Ukrainian's fears (Euromaidan) and through example (Crimea), mass propaganda (Russian media), a suggestion (Russian army on the border), and a spark (non-local paramilitary group) took off and became a full-fledged fire.
|
Also, Hammurabi, you claim the separatists in the East got their weapons off the black market. Do you have any evidence of that? Otherwise I believe you've just made a non-fact based speculation.
For someone who harps on 'facts' so much, you provide surprisingly few to back up your own arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2893
1121
214
EPT
