On May 09 2014 19:27 Cheerio wrote: Under Lugansk two Toyota FJ Cruiser cars were sprayed with gunfire after failing to stop at separatist's checkpost. A female and male driving the cars (husband and wife) were shot dead. Their 10 year old daughter who was in one of the cars was hospitalized and is in a critical condition.
On May 09 2014 21:26 Cheerio wrote: Separatists killed a priest in Konstantinovka (Donetsk oblast) according to Donetsk news source OstroV chief editor, Sergey Garmash. + Show Spoiler +
According to a local rumor the priest lived near the separatistic blockpost and went to talk sense into them. They didn't want to listen
Information was confirmed by General Prosecutor Office in Kyiv. Images of cars: + Show Spoiler +
Update.
The video by ICTV news shows a phone conversation between two men. One of them reports that their men killed a family which was going to cross the border [with Russia], father and mother were shot dead, a small child survived, happened near [15 km according to other news] Doljanskiy border point. The reporting man says he is fed up with everything. + lots of swearing.
The child (10 year old girl) had a gunshot to the head and a 10 hour operation. She didn't survive.
The photos of a killed couple (according to gazeta.ua) + Show Spoiler +
Irina Buryhina, 42 Oleg Buryhin, 37 and daughter Liza, 10
On May 14 2014 02:31 Mc wrote: I don't think I've posted an op-ed so far but this one was especially well thought out and a quick read. So I'd really recommend anybody following this thread to read it.
Any thoughts? To me it sums up the conflict very well. Although, some of the conclusions it draws at the end are far-fetched.
He says "The ethnicisation of the Ukrainian conflict suits the Kremlin. Its worst nightmare is a Ukraine growing into an alternative Russia - a better place for talented and entrepreneurial Russians to live and work than Russia proper." - there are other factors at play here, but this would be tragic for Russia. If Ukraine developed into a successful democracy, a whole lot of Russia's educated middle class would emigrate.
Going a bit too far:
"The West misinterprets Putin by thinking that he wants to rebuild an empire - it is much more likely that the real goal is a compact, monoethnic and ultra-nationalist Ukraine, with the Russian element reduced to a minimum." - I disagree, Putin wants a non-Western and undeveloped Ukraine. It doesn't have to be mono-ethnic and ultra-nationalist to achieve those goals.
He misses the point where Ukraine was created as an artificial state, with borders having no historic precedent and found themselves in a very precarious geographic/political/economic situation. Much like Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia, and like the latter, Ukraine is now a failed state. Partitioning Ukraine now is much more painful than it would have been in 1991, but at this point it's maybe not that bad of an idea as it sounds... almost all their neighbours have legit territorial claims. A smaller, more efficient and more homogenous Ukraine that doesn't dream about EU membership, which is unattainable anyway could function better.
Yeah Ukraine is such an artificial state. I can educate you boy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor It's so funny that some supposed Ukrainians were waiving flags of Stalin, either they aren't Ukrainians, or descendants of Russians, or dumb people who don't even know their own history. Stalin was as mad and as bad as Hitler was and seing people waving his portrait is imo the same as waving Hitler's.
The territory of Ukraine was a battlefield during the World War II, and its population, including Russians, significantly decreased. The infrastructure was heavily damaged and it required human and capital resources to be rebuilt. This compounded with depopulation caused by two famines of 1931–1932 and a third in 1947 to leave the territory with a greatly reduced population. A large portion of the wave of new migrants to industrialize, integrate and Sovietize the recently acquired western Ukrainian territories were ethnic Russians who mostly settled around industrial centers and military garrisons.[14] This increased the proportion of the Russian speaking population. Near the end of the War, the entire population of Crimean Tatars (numbering up to a quarter of a million) was expelled from their homeland in Crimea to Central Asia, under accusations of collaborations with Germans.[15][16] The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993) and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993).[17]
The Ukrainian language remained a mandatory subject of study in all Russian schools, but in many government offices preference was given to the Russian language that gave an additional impetus to the advancement of Russification. The 1979 census showed that only one third of ethnic Russians spoke the Ukrainian language fluently.[6]
It's not that he misses a point, it's just that you don't have a real point because you are using the same imaginary facts hence disinformation Putin and his lackeys use.
Thank you for the Wikipedia education. As you can see in your own links, Ukraine, even on paper only started it's existence in the 20th Century. The closest we've got is Zaporozhye and that state does not directly precede modern Ukraine.
You think if I'm calling Ukraine an artificial state I'm saying it has no right to exist. Ukraine's borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe, just like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia (as a whole, not separately). In 1991 they inherited national borders that were never meant to function as such. There's hardly any debate to that.
You have it the wrong way around. The Soviet Union was the artificial state. That's why it collapsed. Kiev is actually older than Moscow. Ukraine as a cultural identity dates back several hundred, to maybe a thousand, years. The fact that it, for the most of the time, has been under the influence of several kinds of Russian empires does not make it artificial. It's like arguing that India is just artificial because it belonged to the British empire.
You still don't get it. Noone is saying Ukraine should be non existent. However it was created without respect to it's future citizens rights.
Put on a helmet, because I'm about to BLOW YOUR MIND!
On May 14 2014 02:31 Mc wrote: I don't think I've posted an op-ed so far but this one was especially well thought out and a quick read. So I'd really recommend anybody following this thread to read it.
Any thoughts? To me it sums up the conflict very well. Although, some of the conclusions it draws at the end are far-fetched.
He says "The ethnicisation of the Ukrainian conflict suits the Kremlin. Its worst nightmare is a Ukraine growing into an alternative Russia - a better place for talented and entrepreneurial Russians to live and work than Russia proper." - there are other factors at play here, but this would be tragic for Russia. If Ukraine developed into a successful democracy, a whole lot of Russia's educated middle class would emigrate.
Going a bit too far:
"The West misinterprets Putin by thinking that he wants to rebuild an empire - it is much more likely that the real goal is a compact, monoethnic and ultra-nationalist Ukraine, with the Russian element reduced to a minimum." - I disagree, Putin wants a non-Western and undeveloped Ukraine. It doesn't have to be mono-ethnic and ultra-nationalist to achieve those goals.
He misses the point where Ukraine was created as an artificial state, with borders having no historic precedent and found themselves in a very precarious geographic/political/economic situation. Much like Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia, and like the latter, Ukraine is now a failed state. Partitioning Ukraine now is much more painful than it would have been in 1991, but at this point it's maybe not that bad of an idea as it sounds... almost all their neighbours have legit territorial claims. A smaller, more efficient and more homogenous Ukraine that doesn't dream about EU membership, which is unattainable anyway could function better.
Yeah Ukraine is such an artificial state. I can educate you boy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor It's so funny that some supposed Ukrainians were waiving flags of Stalin, either they aren't Ukrainians, or descendants of Russians, or dumb people who don't even know their own history. Stalin was as mad and as bad as Hitler was and seing people waving his portrait is imo the same as waving Hitler's.
The territory of Ukraine was a battlefield during the World War II, and its population, including Russians, significantly decreased. The infrastructure was heavily damaged and it required human and capital resources to be rebuilt. This compounded with depopulation caused by two famines of 1931–1932 and a third in 1947 to leave the territory with a greatly reduced population. A large portion of the wave of new migrants to industrialize, integrate and Sovietize the recently acquired western Ukrainian territories were ethnic Russians who mostly settled around industrial centers and military garrisons.[14] This increased the proportion of the Russian speaking population. Near the end of the War, the entire population of Crimean Tatars (numbering up to a quarter of a million) was expelled from their homeland in Crimea to Central Asia, under accusations of collaborations with Germans.[15][16] The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993) and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993).[17]
The Ukrainian language remained a mandatory subject of study in all Russian schools, but in many government offices preference was given to the Russian language that gave an additional impetus to the advancement of Russification. The 1979 census showed that only one third of ethnic Russians spoke the Ukrainian language fluently.[6]
It's not that he misses a point, it's just that you don't have a real point because you are using the same imaginary facts hence disinformation Putin and his lackeys use.
Thank you for the Wikipedia education. As you can see in your own links, Ukraine, even on paper only started it's existence in the 20th Century. The closest we've got is Zaporozhye and that state does not directly precede modern Ukraine.
You think if I'm calling Ukraine an artificial state I'm saying it has no right to exist. Ukraine's borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe, just like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia (as a whole, not separately). In 1991 they inherited national borders that were never meant to function as such. There's hardly any debate to that.
Put on a helmet, because I'm about to BLOW YOUR MIND!
All borders are artificial
And that is what makes that line of argumentation so incredibly dangerous. If state borders can be moved at will, you can be 100 % certain conflicts will arise. This is not cold war logic. Movable borders is a far older concept of world understanding, marked by the brutal wars it created. Hungary and Russia feels cheated by history, but the history if we reopen border-drawing is nothing to long for...
Wow. Not much to say really, other than "wow". Not to mention the rest of the diarrhea you had. "Legit territorial claims" is most likely the new "stupidest comment" in this thread.
By that logic, ukraine can claim russias territorium, since, you know, russia was co-"founded" by slavic settlers from kiev. Even better, the whole thing down there was greek before that, somewhere BC. Better be prepared for some sirtaki.
About 30 rebels, who had taken cover among bushes along a river, attacked with grenade-launchers and automatic weapons near a village 20 km (12 miles) from Kramatorsk, the ministry said in a statement on its website.
"In all, as a result of the prolonged fighting, six members of the armed forces were killed. Eight soldiers were wounded, one of them seriously," it said. The state security service (SBU) said later that the seriously wounded soldier had died while being taken to hospital. reuters
Also, russia now retaliating/responding to sanctions with threats regarding the ISS.
To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
Who exactly is "you"? For a legit referendum to be refused, it has to happen first. It didn't. Neither in crimea, nor in the east. So what do you base your argument on? "Gutfeeling"?
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
Did I miss the part in history class where the US annexed a part of Eastern Europe? What kind of comparison is that?
Thank you for the Wikipedia education. As you can see in your own links, Ukraine, even on paper only started it's existence in the 20th Century. The closest we've got is Zaporozhye and that state does not directly precede modern Ukraine.
You think if I'm calling Ukraine an artificial state I'm saying it has no right to exist. Ukraine's borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe, just like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia (as a whole, not separately). In 1991 they inherited national borders that were never meant to function as such. There's hardly any debate to that.
So, what are you saying by calling something an artificial state. Your "organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states" is meaningless as it is something every country in Europe is continuously undergoing, including Ukraine and your examples when they still existed. Giving examples of those that were split up due to ethnic differences completely ignores both those that are existing today despite them, as well as those where nationalities are dominant in different nations. By your logic, every nation in Europe is an artificial state doomed to failure.
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
But wait, this will mean that if East Ukraine broke off, it would mean that it has not undergone "borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe", therefore it too needs to be broken off or added as per stronger neighbors demands.
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
But wait, this will mean that if East Ukraine broke off, it would mean that it has not undergone "borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe", therefore it too needs to be broken off or added as per stronger neighbors demands.
And so EtherealBlade's motivation in his morasse of nonsensical artificial states business is revealed.
LoL
You're arguing for Stalin's and Kruschev's borders. How does that fit into your moral compass? Or suddenly those men are PC statesmen now? Nope, the likes of you were crying out loud against them back in the day. "Russia" is synonymous with "enemy" in the West's dictionary.
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
But wait, this will mean that if East Ukraine broke off, it would mean that it has not undergone "borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe", therefore it too needs to be broken off or added as per stronger neighbors demands.
And so EtherealBlade's motivation in his morasse of nonsensical artificial states business is revealed.
LoL
You're arguing for Stalin's and Kruschev's borders. How does that fit into your moral compass? Or suddenly those men are PC statesmen now? Nope, the likes of you were crying out loud against them back in the day. "Russia" is synonymous with "enemy" in the West's dictionary.
No, he's arguing for not redrawing borders. But you already knew that, you were just playing dumb so you could make your cute little ad hominem.
On May 09 2014 19:27 Cheerio wrote: Under Lugansk two Toyota FJ Cruiser cars were sprayed with gunfire after failing to stop at separatist's checkpost. A female and male driving the cars (husband and wife) were shot dead. Their 10 year old daughter who was in one of the cars was hospitalized and is in a critical condition.
On May 09 2014 21:26 Cheerio wrote: Separatists killed a priest in Konstantinovka (Donetsk oblast) according to Donetsk news source OstroV chief editor, Sergey Garmash. + Show Spoiler +
According to a local rumor the priest lived near the separatistic blockpost and went to talk sense into them. They didn't want to listen
Information was confirmed by General Prosecutor Office in Kyiv. Images of cars: + Show Spoiler +
Update.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LprGj1KN9fg The video by ICTV news shows a phone conversation between two men. One of them reports that their men killed a family which was going to cross the border [with Russia], father and mother were shot dead, a small child survived, happened near [15 km according to other news] Doljanskiy border point. The reporting man says he is fed up with everything. + lots of swearing.
The child (10 year old girl) had a gunshot to the head and a 10 hour operation. She didn't survive.
The photos of a killed couple (according to gazeta.ua) + Show Spoiler +
Irina Buryhina, 42 Oleg Buryhin, 37 and daughter Liza, 10
@Cheerio I stand corrected. I'm quite convinced that the rebels did indeed kill a couple w/ child.
And if you have a moment could you reply to my post ? I'm also curious if there are any Ukrainians coming to this kind of despairing logic? It's a sad reality and I'm hoping for a better resolution to this crisis, but with the way Russia is acting, I don't know if there is one :/
On May 14 2014 05:28 EtherealBlade wrote: To you nothing is legit when it does not serve your interests. Even if the East bothered to hold a legit referendum, it would never get accepted by the "international community", because there's a double standard applied when Russia stands to gain (perceived or real). When borders get redrawn in Kosovo there's legit claims and self determination. If Russia does the same in Crimea that's a landgrab.
But wait, this will mean that if East Ukraine broke off, it would mean that it has not undergone "borders and territorial integrity did not go through the organic stabilisation and establishment that defines other nation states in Europe", therefore it too needs to be broken off or added as per stronger neighbors demands.
And so EtherealBlade's motivation in his morasse of nonsensical artificial states business is revealed.
LoL
You're arguing for Stalin's and Kruschev's borders. How does that fit into your moral compass? Or suddenly those men are PC statesmen now? Nope, the likes of you were crying out loud against them back in the day. "Russia" is synonymous with "enemy" in the West's dictionary.
That is your story and you are sticking to it.
The line of argumentation based on changing borders essentially boils down to might makes right, rebuilding of an empire cheated by history and/or a complete denial of the broader consequences of a broken distinction between annexation and independence.
Historical arguments does not a very good moral judge make. It just boxes your argument deeper into the "cheated empire"-category.
I jumped on a grenade and I certainly don't regret it. I was far too busy in the last week anyways. I didn't even touch the forum again until Friday to find a 1-week in effect lol. ETT literally looked at the preceding page and banned everyone who posted there, so basically, all the wrong people were banned (except one of our newest additions to the thread). It was hardly good or fair moderation by any means, but I think the collateral damage like me was far worth removing someone else from this thread for a week. The thread was certainly more enjoyable to read.
Note that these referendums in eastern Ukraine were operated even despite the Russian government's calls to postpone or call off the referendums.
The Kremlin folks have responded about as nonchalant as before. They aren't involved in Ukraine one way or the other since Crimea. They've made it evident they don't support the revolutionaries or the referendums over the past week, and I have yet to hear them make any statement about Donetsk's leadership wanting to join Russia. What is strange though is once the votes happened, then suddenly Russia was okay with it... >_> and then USA threatened more sanctions against Russia because the revolutionaries did something that goes against US interests haha, even if Russia really had nothing to do with it. I find this very amusing.
While I am still convinced that Russia will use any grave atrocity committed by the Ukrainian government as "humanitarian" justification for military intervention, I don't see that happening any time soon, even if it were to happen. The revolutionary militias are giving Ukrainian forces a run for their money on their own. :S
Primarily, I want to see how Putin responds to the revolutionary leaders' appeals to join Russia.
If I'm not mistaken Habibi actually people have posted that Ukrainians were able to give their vote in Moscow a few pages ago, I wouldn't exactly call that "not involved".
I jumped on a grenade and I certainly don't regret it. I was far too busy in the last week anyways. I didn't even touch the forum again until Friday to find a 1-week in effect lol. ETT literally looked at the preceding page and banned everyone who posted there, so basically, all the wrong people were banned (except one of our newest additions to the thread). It was hardly good or fair moderation by any means, but I think the collateral damage like me was far worth removing someone else from this thread for a week. The thread was certainly more enjoyable to read.
On May 14 2014 08:04 Nyxisto wrote: If I'm not mistaken Habibi actually people have posted that Ukrainians were able to give their vote in Moscow a few pages ago, I wouldn't exactly call that "not involved".
My bad. I hadn't seen that. But I doubt it would have changed the outcome at all, considering it was "89%" (lol). They should just go the way of old Arab elections and make it 99.9% for christsake.
I jumped on a grenade and I certainly don't regret it. I was far too busy in the last week anyways. I didn't even touch the forum again until Friday to find a 1-week in effect lol. ETT literally looked at the preceding page and banned everyone who posted there, so basically, all the wrong people were banned (except one of our newest additions to the thread). It was hardly good or fair moderation by any means, but I think the collateral damage like me was far worth removing someone else from this thread for a week. The thread was certainly more enjoyable to read.
Note that these referendums in eastern Ukraine were operated even despite the Russian government's calls to postpone or call off the referendums.
Note that said Donetsk 'leadership' is a man who worked for Russia based ponzi scheme MMM in the 90s and I believe also MMM 2011. See here
So apparently he's very good at fooling people. He will have a bright future in Russian media when this is all over.
Or anywhere for that matter. About as crooked as any politician, especially in Ukraine where that's a practically a requirement, so I could care less who he is. The main point is he is representing the revolutionary province of Donetsk and he is asking something that some of the separatists have essentially asked as well. Whether it happens or not is up to the Duma. I don't think it will happen though.
My oh my. Looks like i started something. Even made it into the sig. ^^
Kinda interesting to note, again "heavy weaponry" was used in the attack on the military convoy. Grenade launchers are not as easy to come by as a hunting rifles, so somehow the "seperatists" have a supply of heavy military equipment. IGLAs able to shoot at MI24s, assault rifles, grenade launchers. I start to doubt that they have access to ukrainian military equipment, because then they would use their armored vehicles as well (not to mention, ukrainian radio equipment etc).
EPT![[image loading]](http://news.liga.net/upload/resize_cache/iblock/2bb/380_230_2/2bbfd06bfa1322a17b323453ef3b242e.jpg)
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