On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
at least he is giving something, you are like "shut up, noob". Why don't you share that valuable experience of yours instead?
Really nice write-up by a fellow at the London Review of Books.
In the past 48 hours Ukraine has reached that tipping-point where the romantics become realists and the realists romantics. In the conventional world, romantics are those who think in terms of national destiny, the will of the people, of battle, of glory and self-sacrifice, of the radical political gesture; the realists those who prioritise money, balance sheets, personal safety, resignation, fatalism, the acceptance of an unjust, imperfect world where people know their place and limits, where things change slowly.
This graphic on the Ukrainian government website, which tries to account for President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to reject an association agreement with the European Union in favour of an alternative deal with Russia, must have seemed to whoever drew it to explain things sensibly. We were realists, it says, we were pragmatists. Look! Sign a deal with the EU and we lose $37 billion: Russia will charge us high prices for gas, we lose $15 billion in trade with Russia, EU goods flood our markets. But if we sign a deal with Russia, they immediately lend, give or invest $22.5 billion and slash the price of gas. Trade with Russia and the EU is much more to our advantage. Look! Net gain to Ukraine: $5 billion!
Leaving aside the poorly grounded assumptions underlying the figures, the short-term thinking, and the unnecessary, bullying insistence from Moscow that the two deals are mutually exclusive, this attempt at political justification in dollar terms now looks hopelessly idealistic. It is the ideal of a cynic; it is the ideal of a complete cynic, Vladimir Putin, the one ideal a complete cynic can have – that people have no ideals. The ideal that they are motivated only by money and fear of the big stick. Yanukovich went to Moscow in the private Airbus of the necromancer who performed the original political alchemy on him, Ukraine’s richest man, Rinat Akhmetov, and the two obligingly confirmed to the arch-cynic Putin that, as he has consistently and contemptuously believed, Ukrainians are a greedy and frightened people in their entirety......
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem? Just because some nationalistic asshole at some point used Glory to Ukraine doesnt allow Polish nationalists to delineate how Ukrainians use their language, it isnt 1930s anymore.
I'm not saying you shouldnt use phrases like that. I dont even know enough of the history involving that to judge it. all i'm saying is that people that know about such stuff MIGHT missunderstand you and that it could cause problems.
Well we dont really use Deutschland über alles, in fact that part is banned here and you would get into trouble singing that
Phrases can be interpreted anyway you want to. For example, German Anthem has three stanzas. You use one of them now, but the first one was used by you when you were into nationalism and killing people. So if I had anti-German sentiments I would interpret that as German's not-so-hidden reminder that they think they are better than me. Is this an incredibly stupid interpretation? Yes. Well, to claim that "Glory to Ukraine" is only related to and used by a group of Ukrainian fascists from the World War 2 is the same level of idiocy. The sentence Glory Ukraine was used in the Ukrainian anthem until 2003. Its an anthem that was adopted by people who would agree that the fascists our Polish brought up are in fact evil fascists.
I think we are both trying to say the same thing with different words. Lets agree that we agree?
So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
Assuming it actually happends this stops the bloodshed. How can that be a bad thing. People have a right to protest without being shot at by live ammunition.
Amd why do the 15 who switched need to be bribed. Has it ever accured to you that even those on Yanukovychs side might not be happy with the police force killing the very people they are sworn to protect?
Zeo, if you're ignorant of the significance of something, don't assume everyone else is as well. All you know is empty accusations. The true signal sent by today's vote is that the Party of Regions no longer has Yanukovich's back, so his legitimacy as a head of state is diminished. Furthermore, the worst case scenario involves the participation of the army. If members of the Region Party are defecting, the army has probably made its decision against Yanukovich.
So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
Assuming it actually happends this stops the bloodshed. How can that be a bad thing. People have a right to protest without being shot at by live ammunition.
Amd why do the 15 who switched need to be bribed. Has it ever accured to you that even those on Yanukovychs side might not be happy with the police force killing the very people they are sworn to protect?
Getting the nazi's off the street and into prison stops the bloodshed. If the bandits on the street really do pull off a coup d'etat and take down a democraticly elected government recognized by the whole world as legitimate what happens then? Any country with an interest in Ukraine can claim that the Ukraine they signed agrements with stopped existing.
Russia already has the whole Black Sea fleet stationed in Sevastopol, they legaly already have a very large force of marines in the country by agreement. These nationalists/nazi's come to power, what then?
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder.
But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing
Those are tityshky gangs. And there are numerous proofs they are working together with police and it's special units. Yellow armbands is the easiest way to spot them. For example here tityshky gangs are being armed and instructed in Dnipropetrivs'k Governmental Administration. They attacked local Euromaidan activists the same or the following day.
In an interview at the place of an attack a person controlling titushky claimed that young people helping police are the People's Guards of the President ("Народная Гвардия Президента").
How about we just say it as it is: Zeo has no idea what's actually going on, he's repeating what he's been told by Russian puppet-media, and we know this because no-one else goes around calling their opponents nazi's in this day and age. Why should we waste time responding to that, considering he probably doesn't even read our posts... Let's just keep posting actual interesting content, and treat his posts as filler in between, equally significant as the blue lines around TL posts.
On February 21 2014 09:19 Roe wrote: Interesting tweet as most opposition/activists seem to be labeled as terrorists
Do you mean line 3: stop anti-terrorist operations?
Well, that's actually something else. There have been raids across the Ukraine on armories, and such, against which Yanukovich launched some strange anti-terrorism operation, the details of which remain unclear. This line is intended to repeal that order.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder.
But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing
Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons.
I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off.
So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection? And on the top of that you assume another connection to events 20 years later. That's a lot of assuming, isn't it?
On February 21 2014 09:19 Roe wrote: Interesting tweet as most opposition/activists seem to be labeled as terrorists
Do you mean line 3: stop anti-terrorist operations?
Well, that's actually something else. There have been raids across the Ukraine on armories, and such, against which Yanukovich launched some strange anti-terrorism operation, the details of which remain unclear. This line is intended to repeal that order.
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I am not dumb, I know what it literally means. And, please, don't pretend to be this stupid. Right now it is being used mainly by people who build statues to fucking scum like Bandera or Shukhevych, people who consider people responsible for the genocide as their national heroes. Those people exist in this very day and age. They are a major part of this whole Maidan. They have significant political power in western parts of Ukraine. Some of them say the genocide never happened, others say it was justified. Some want to tear parts of Poland away from my country (Tiahnybok last year, Prawyj Sektor now).
They all shout "Slava Ukraini! Heroyam slava!". You know who those "heroes" are? Bandera, Shuchevych and their militants - probably the most brutal murderers in modern history of Europe. Compared to them, nazis were very civil... This is what they mean with those salutes.
edit:
Maybe try counting the Ukrainian flags on Maidan and then count the red-black ones...
At first I wanted to respond with a long post about Rzeczpospolita, and how much those Polish people oppressed Ukrainians in the past (I know that there were more than just Poland in it but that's besides the point). You know, we have a long history of animosity and your nation did a lot of horrible things to Ukraine during it. Do you name them as monsters and bastards in your history books? Anyhow, it doesn't matter now. I'm not justifying anything, I'm just saying that your view is very one-sided. Many people were wrong in the past, it doesn't mean other people will do the same wrongdoings now. And all this is irrelevant to what I have tried to say in my previous post.
What is important was already said in this thread. Words should never be blamed for acts of people who used them. I'll quote another post which said it as well:
On February 21 2014 07:51 Sub40APM wrote: Phrases can be interpreted anyway you want to. For example, German Anthem has three stanzas. You use one of them now, but the first one was used by you when you were into nationalism and killing people. So if I had anti-German sentiments I would interpret that as German's not-so-hidden reminder that they think they are better than me. Is this an incredibly stupid interpretation? Yes. Well, to claim that "Glory to Ukraine" is only related to and used by a group of Ukrainian fascists from the World War 2 is the same level of idiocy. The sentence Glory Ukraine was used in the Ukrainian anthem until 2003. Its an anthem that was adopted by people who would agree that the fascists our Polish brought up are in fact evil fascists.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder.
But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing
Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons.
I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off.
So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection?
Roman666 said that the rioters did not have guns, and even if they had them they wouldnt know how to use them. There are many war vets in western Ukraine, the volontiers that went to fight on the side of Chechnia against Russia not so long ago, all came from the ultra-nationalist ranks now fighting police all over the country. So there are people that know how to use military fire-arms.
The ex-USSR has a well documented history of missing military hardware, finding a sniper rifle in civilian hands wouldn't be a supprise.
All I did was answer his two questions, though I could have worded it more clearly.
On February 21 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote: Zeo, if you're ignorant of the significance of something, don't assume everyone else is as well. All you know is empty accusations. The true signal sent by today's vote is that the Party of Regions no longer has Yanukovich's back, so his legitimacy as a head of state is diminished. Furthermore, the worst case scenario involves the participation of the army. If members of the Region Party are defecting, the army has probably made its decision against Yanukovich.
Thats unclear. The head of Kharkiv Region's twitter keeps saying things like "We are all Berkut" or "We are gathering all politicians from Eastern Ukraine and Crimea to create an anti-Maidan block" while Medvedev has announced that "We will not give money to Ukraine since its government is so weak its letting its opponets run all over it"
The culmination of all this seems to suggest that once the Olympics are over, Yanukovich will be replaced by a more hard line Russian puppet and violence will get worse.
On February 21 2014 09:19 Roe wrote: Interesting tweet as most opposition/activists seem to be labeled as terrorists
Do you mean line 3: stop anti-terrorist operations?
Well, that's actually something else. There have been raids across the Ukraine on armories, and such, against which Yanukovich launched some strange anti-terrorism operation, the details of which remain unclear. This line is intended to repeal that order.
Not even that. Few days ago, Ukrainian government started a so-called "anti-terrorist operation" to have a legal ground for shutting down Metro (subway) in Kiev, blocking roads and railway connections, and using weapons against regular people. It was, more or less, a way to give themselves a state of emergency level powers without officially proclaiming it.
And for the people defending the point we should not support anyone unless they are 100% right, there is this: All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Edmund Burke
EPT
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
