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On February 21 2014 14:51 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 14:04 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 10:25 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 09:36 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 09:22 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 05:54 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 05:13 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:03 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 04:38 Saryph wrote:On February 21 2014 04:32 Sokrates wrote:
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I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
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How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that. It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder. But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons. I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection? Roman666 said that the rioters did not have guns, and even if they had them they wouldnt know how to use them. That's just bullshit. First of all there is not much to using a gun, you just aim and press the trigger. Secondly many of those men served in the army. Some of those actually do own guns. And others could have been visiting a shooting range regularly. I never said that rioters did not have guns, I said they do not have weapons and training capable of making precision shots. Zeo has serious issues with ability of reading with comprehension. Or he simply prefers to troll for the sake of it. You don't need to go at such lengths to prove that government snipers were behind the killings. In pretty much every video available if you are familiar with the local geography it's perfectly clear that the bullets went from the territory controlled by the governmental forces (upper Institutskaya st.).
You don't need and I do not too. However some people need to have facts thrown in their faces. And still, they would try to deny these.
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There are indirect signs as well as rumours that the yesterday's massacres were at the hands of Russian snipers.
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The yesterday's Parliament enactment has already had some impact. Block-post from Lviv to Kyiv have been lifted, as the new arrivers on Euromaidan today have claimed. Also there has been no sniper fire after 23.00 Thursday (though some sources claim there were some occasional shots on Grushevskogo street).
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On February 21 2014 14:57 Cheerio wrote:
Yanukovich and the opposition have been negotiating with the help of some EU MFAs and some Russian guys for 9 hours now. No results yet, besides the fact that one of the Russians has already left (Russian Ambassator in Ukraine; around 3 hours ago).
update: negotiations have been put on hold. The opposition and EU MFAs have left the building. No details have been disclosed for now.
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Thank you, Cheerio, for giving such frequent informative updates. I woke up and found most of the relevant information already available in this thread.
Edit: Update!
The signing of an agreement to resolve the crisis is expected at 12:00 (10:00 GMT), the presidential statement says. It says that no details of the agreement were given.
AFP quoting TV reports: The Ukraine deal sees early elections, coalition, constitution change.
The privately-owned 1+1 channel says: A preliminary deal due to be signed later today between President Yanukovych and the opposition includes changes to the constitution, a coalition government and early presidential elections in December. The agreement would see Ukraine revert to its 2004 constitution within 48 hours and a formation of a coalition government within 10 days, it says
German, French and Polish FMs involved in the negotiations.
Two mitigating things:
- German foreign ministry tweeted that the negotiations are not properly concluded
- Yanukovich has not honored earlier agreements.
Snyder on the whole fascism language being thrown around.
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On February 21 2014 12:27 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 11:21 nunez wrote:
@Sub40APM, r.Evo, Cheerio
sure, but i think it's worth noting re: ghanburgian's answer to zeo (at least one was active in georgia-russia war) and the slant of the average post in the thread.
i'm not waving pom-poms before i know what team is being fielded. There are no clean hands, but the possibility of joining the EU increases the probability of positive reforms. Slovakia in the mid 90s had a nasty fascist in charge and after the Germans finished turning it into a big car factor after EU ascension things seemed to have calmed down a bit... More controversially, having a large number of fascists in the country doesnt make it super unique for a European country these days -- unfortunately. France had a nazi win 20% of the vote in a presidential election, Italy has a fascist party and the grand daughter of Mussolini in government, Austria and Netherlands had right wing xenophobes form governments, so does Hungary for that matter, Croats were involved in a round of ethnic cleansing part of their country just 20 years ago, the UK conservatives are about to be split by a new far right party, the Swiss just elected a party so xenophobic its worried about GERMAN immigration and so forth. It doesnt excuse any of the right wing bullshit but it seems to me in terms of reflecting popular opinion of a disgusting minority, Ukraine is on par with many EU nations. In fact the only ones I cant think of who have a big fascist minority are the Germans (good for you guys, way to control your natural urge to rule and conquer! the Scandinavians and the Iberians.)
I don't want to hijack the topic but this needs to be said. Any amount of the cleansing that was done, it was done by the individuals or small groups, it was not an organized thing. It is more then unfair to say Croats did it. The international war crimes court didn't find proof that it was organized by the government.
This said, today, there is a fair amount of right wing activists trying to push right wing ideals (we recently had a referendum where we put into our constitution that only a man and a woman can marry...  ), but the amount of people that would actually do bodily harm to others are not a lot.
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Another update:
Kyiv cancelled the Russian bailout.
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There are rumors that armed forces entered the parliament while they were negotiating. Lets hope its just a safety mesure against radical demonstranst and not some kind of "if i just arrest every high opposition politician i can do what i want.."
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Update:
Under the proposed deal brokered with President Yanukovych, Ukraine's constitution will be reformed by September, cutting presidential powers
I don't see all of opposition be very happy with a deal that takes effect in 6 months as it allows Yanukovich to regroup and break yet another promise. This is probably the reason why the French and German FMs are voicing caution.
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Reports of shooting in front of parliment.
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According to local news, Yanukovich is about to resign. If true, then Ukrainians have won. Congratulations! I wish Bulgarians also won against the ex-communist party which is now in power.
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Wooo! The opposition will sign the agreement:
Ukraine: After talks w/ FM Steinmeier + sikorskiradek Maidan's Civic Council decided to mandate Opposition leaders to sign agreement.
EU ministers win backing for agreement on resolving the Ukraine crisis from council representing Kiev protesters - Reuters quoting EU sources
Interesting piece of news:
Russian Ombudsman Vladimir Lukin - who was sent to Kiev by President Putin to mediate in the talks among the authorities, the opposition and EU representatives, has refused to sign the final document on the crisis settlement in Ukraine, a source close to the talks told the Interfax-Ukraine news agency. But the agency has not officially confirmed this information. (BBC Monitoring)
So the only party unhappy with the resolution is Russia 
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On February 21 2014 22:19 Ghanburighan wrote:So the only party unhappy with the resolution is Russia
Why am I not surprised? :D
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On February 21 2014 10:07 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns. These aren't regular circumstances, that's the only reason even those groups seem to be 'accepted' to a certain degree. No matter their political and extremist views groups like that might be great allies for a common cause. I genuinely don't care how extremist someones ideas and views are, fighting for their right to express them without being shot at by their own police force is as democratic as it gets. People can deal with not aligning with their ideas after the immediate threat is over but until then claiming the high horse and calling out which awful groups are joining the protests might not be the most honest chain of thought. It obviously is a very, very thin line here but if I try to put myself into the shoes of some of the protesters I've seen I definitely wouldn't mind to know some people who know how to handle firearms or who have the strength and determination to help against a common cause on my side, no matter their background.
You have some good points but you are not factoring in a few things:
1. A very large majority of the people doing the fighting/dieing/killing against the police want nothing to do with the EU.
2. Mainstream pro-EU opposition has absolutely no control over the rioters.
3. The people rioting in Kiev have been imported from across the country and have no qualms about destroying the city.
4. Any government that comes to power after all this, unless they have a policy of expelling all the Poles and Russians from the country, will immediately be attacked by the same people rioting now.
See, number four is why empowering fascists is a very bad idea. Whatever freedom or democracy you think you might have gained on the backs of fascists, is poisoned. The pro-EU's might think its a good idea to jump into that hole, but they underestimate just how far down that hole goes. If Yanukovych falls and some government that wants EU membership comes, the first thing they will have to do is fight in the streets against the same people that brought them to power. Of course this all begs the question, why will violent repression of the same protesters fighting Yanukovych now be more acceptable if the government is pro-EU?
tl;dr Drinking from the poison fascist cup might quench your thirst now, but you will feel the consequences soon enough.
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4. If they riot alone they will be an easy target for the police. And EU will not back them, they will lose fast.
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On February 21 2014 22:40 -Archangel- wrote:
4. If they riot alone they will be an easy target for the police. And EU will not back them, they will lose fast.
If one half of the country is supporting them now, then the other half will just make protests that the extremists can use all over again
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On February 21 2014 18:23 BlackCompany wrote:
There are rumors that armed forces entered the parliament while they were negotiating. Lets hope its just a safety mesure against radical demonstranst and not some kind of "if i just arrest every high opposition politician i can do what i want.."
Rumor has it that some officers were extremely pissed at the Parliament for it's yesterday's enactment and felt like "influencing" it into some Antimaidan measures. So they went in. But when it came down to actually doing something they didn't. Their behavior was later stupidly explained "they were hiding in the Parliament from the gunshots". No protesters, armed or not, were even close to the Parliament.
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^ Wow, that was a bad situation avoided...
The text of the agreement was distributed by the German FM:
- a law restoring the 2004 constitution will be passed within 48 hours
- the formation of a coalition and national unity government will occur within 10 days
- constitutional reform, balancing the power between the president, government and parliament, will begin now and be completed in September
- Presidential elections will be held as soon as the constitution is adopted but no later than December 2014
- an investigation into the recent acts of violence will be conducted by the authorities, opposition and Council of Europe
- The authorities will not impose a state of emergency and both the opposition and authorities will refrain from use of violence
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On February 21 2014 22:24 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:07 r.Evo wrote:On February 21 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns. These aren't regular circumstances, that's the only reason even those groups seem to be 'accepted' to a certain degree. No matter their political and extremist views groups like that might be great allies for a common cause. I genuinely don't care how extremist someones ideas and views are, fighting for their right to express them without being shot at by their own police force is as democratic as it gets. People can deal with not aligning with their ideas after the immediate threat is over but until then claiming the high horse and calling out which awful groups are joining the protests might not be the most honest chain of thought. It obviously is a very, very thin line here but if I try to put myself into the shoes of some of the protesters I've seen I definitely wouldn't mind to know some people who know how to handle firearms or who have the strength and determination to help against a common cause on my side, no matter their background. You have some good points but you are not factoring in a few things: 1. A very large majority of the people doing the fighting/dieing/killing against the police want nothing to do with the EU. 2. Mainstream pro-EU opposition has absolutely no control over the rioters. 3. The people rioting in Kiev have been imported from across the country and have no qualms about destroying the city. 4. Any government that comes to power after all this, unless they have a policy of expelling all the Poles and Russians from the country, will immediately be attacked by the same people rioting now. See, number four is why empowering fascists is a very bad idea. Whatever freedom or democracy you think you might have gained on the backs of fascists, is poisoned. The pro-EU's might think its a good idea to jump into that hole, but they underestimate just how far down that hole goes. If Yanukovych falls and some government that wants EU membership comes, the first thing they will have to do is fight in the streets against the same people that brought them to power. Of course this all begs the question, why will violent repression of the same protesters fighting Yanukovych now be more acceptable if the government is pro-EU? tl;dr Drinking from the poison fascist cup might quench your thirst now, but you will feel the consequences soon enough.
1. That's just plain wrong. I've spoken to many radicals. Most of them understand that without political and financial support
Ukraine won't be able to achieve much. We have been there in 2004. This time we need some help.
3. Well a good example of who is destroying the city is the Ukrainian House example. It's the largest international exhibition and convention center in Kiev and was the place where lots of valuable historic museum exhibits were stored. When it was occupied by the protesters they mended up the place (after some damage was done when the place was assaulted) in one day and put up guards to protect the exhibits. A library was set up to provide some kind of entertainment for the resting people. Nothing valuable disappeared while they occupied the place and it was kept tidy. On 18 February when governmental forces went for an attack the place was abandoned. It was overtaken by police and titushky. At night, when Maidan was assaulted, the alarms went off (placed on the rooms with exhibits) but police didn't send anyone to check it. When the stuff returned to the place the next day they found that the whole place was looted and the overall it was a total mess.
4. There are Jews, Poles, Russians and other minorities on Euromaidan. I have been there a number of times, have you? Also the first victims among the Euromaidan activists have been from the minorities: a Belorussian and an Armenian. And one Jew (a very religious one also) is actually high ranked in Euromaidan Selfdefence Forces. He served in the Israel Army and had some valuable experience. There was his very insightful interview somewhere around.
And stop that "fascist" labeling. With your blind hatred and biased opinions towards the people you have no understanding of, you behave like a "fascist" more than the people you blame.
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EPT
