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On February 21 2014 09:40 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Zeo, if you're ignorant of the significance of something, don't assume everyone else is as well. All you know is empty accusations. The true signal sent by today's vote is that the Party of Regions no longer has Yanukovich's back, so his legitimacy as a head of state is diminished. Furthermore, the worst case scenario involves the participation of the army. If members of the Region Party are defecting, the army has probably made its decision against Yanukovich. Thats unclear. The head of Kharkiv Region's twitter keeps saying things like "We are all Berkut" or "We are gathering all politicians from Eastern Ukraine and Crimea to create an anti-Maidan block" while Medvedev has announced that "We will not give money to Ukraine since its government is so weak its letting its opponets run all over it" The culmination of all this seems to suggest that once the Olympics are over, Yanukovich will be replaced by a more hard line Russian puppet and violence will get worse.
That's correct to an extent. Medvedev's announcement this morning was intended to pressure Yanukovich into cracking down on the protesters with more force (i.e., if Yanukovich gets rid of these pesky protesters, Medvedev would give him 2 billion dollars he needs to refinance Ukraine's loans).
On the other hand, even though Putin's Russia has Yanukovich by the short and curlies, Putin is clearly already thinking ahead towards the possibility that Yanukovich is toppled. This is why he's moving pieces in Russian controlled Crimea and other regions, with 3 potential candidates to try to seize control. Naturally, this cannot be his first plan, as having Yanukovich toppled by dissatisfied citizens is exactly the opposite of the message Putin would like to be sent to his own people.
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On February 21 2014 09:41 MyrMindservant wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 09:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 21 2014 09:19 Roe wrote:
Interesting tweet as most opposition/activists seem to be labeled as terrorists Do you mean line 3: stop anti-terrorist operations? Well, that's actually something else. There have been raids across the Ukraine on armories, and such, against which Yanukovich launched some strange anti-terrorism operation, the details of which remain unclear. This line is intended to repeal that order. Not even that. Few days ago, Ukrainian government started a so-called "anti-terrorist operation" to have a legal ground for shutting down Metro (subway) in Kiev, blocking roads and railway connections, and using weapons against regular people. It was, more or less, a way to give themselves a state of emergency level powers without officially proclaiming it.
Thank you for the elaboration!
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On February 21 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns.
Svoboda in 07 had less than 200,000 voters behind. In the 2012 parliamentary elections it increased it to over 2 million. In between those two periods we saw the split of the pro-Western coalition and the arrest of Timoshenko on charges that are probably true but are obviously political since Yanukovich -- if there was an independent judiciary -- would find himself in the same jail cell.
But the idea that the Maidan protesters are alone the extremists is comical. This is what the head of Kharkiv Oblast had to say: 'The Front will purge and cleanse the Ukrainian land from anyone who has come here as an occupier,'
seems pretty fascist and xenophobic to me.
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On February 21 2014 08:32 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Most important development currently: + Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/EastOfBrussels/status/436612560423362560 So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
Those are not changes to the Constitution, only 226 votes were needed to accept the laws and they had more than that. Yanukovich can refuse to sign it though, but every casualty afterwards will be blamed on him.
P.S. and you thinking that PMs joining Euromaidan cause are going for the $$$ just shows how incredibly biased you are. Even politicians value human lives. Well, at least some of them.
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On February 21 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns.
These aren't regular circumstances, that's the only reason even those groups seem to be 'accepted' to a certain degree. No matter their political and extremist views groups like that might be great allies for a common cause.
I genuinely don't care how extremist someones ideas and views are, fighting for their right to express them without being shot at by their own police force is as democratic as it gets. People can deal with not aligning with their ideas after the immediate threat is over but until then claiming the high horse and calling out which awful groups are joining the protests might not be the most honest chain of thought.
It obviously is a very, very thin line here but if I try to put myself into the shoes of some of the protesters I've seen I definitely wouldn't mind to know some people who know how to handle firearms or who have the strength and determination to help against a common cause on my side, no matter their background.
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On February 21 2014 09:33 nunez wrote:
i have seen several svoboda banners among the protestors.
(hopefully) every poster in this thread would be disgusted by the far-right of the ukranian opposition under regular circumstances. svoboda has been branded as fascist, anti-semitic, xenophobic, anti-gay insert more boogers here, by respectable newspapers, academia, anti-racist organizations over and over, and ofc there are uglier creatures (una-unso, pravy sektor, spilna správa, trident) you'd expect to be at the forefront of these demonstrations.
so zeo is spot on in that regard at least.
una-unso seems to have been involved in georgian civil war and it's wiki page claims it was established by soviet war vets, but... who knows. it doesn't seem farfetched that these guys know how to handle guns.
Svoboda activists have actually defended local synagogues recently, it's a fact.
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On February 21 2014 09:36 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 09:22 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 05:54 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 05:13 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:03 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 04:38 Saryph wrote:On February 21 2014 04:32 Sokrates wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive. On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order. How about neither? People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that. It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder. But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons. I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection? Roman666 said that the rioters did not have guns, and even if they had them they wouldnt know how to use them.
That's just bullshit. First of all there is not much to using a gun, you just aim and press the trigger. Secondly many of those men served in the army. Some of those actually do own guns. And others could have been visiting a shooting range regularly.
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On February 21 2014 00:15 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 22:07 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 20 2014 21:58 Sokrates wrote:On February 20 2014 21:39 Saryph wrote:On February 20 2014 21:35 BlackCompany wrote:On February 20 2014 21:31 Sent. wrote:
I can't belive they're using live ammunition. I hope it won't turn into another Syria or Russian intervention. Whats even more shocking to me is that they even shoot people trying to help the wounded. I can understand if the police shoots at poeple who are about to throws molotows at them ( of course they shouldnt use live ammunition but if they have nothing else its understandable that they try to save their lives aswell) but i dont know how you can shoot people trying to help.. Earlier in this thread there were photos of the police throwing molotov cocktails at protesters. It's horrible that they're shooting at medics, unarmed protesters, and those trying to help the wounded, but not really surprising to me anymore. There is a reason they're trying to remove these horrible people from power. And a reason Putin is supporting the government. Well the protesters arent very civil either, there are two sides of the coin. It is a bit more diverse than you might think. That said literally nothing except insinuating bad things about the protesters. Sigh, barely any people left on the street support Ukraine going into the EU, all of them are ether hard nationalists who long for the time when their grandparents sucked Hitlers cock during the war, even harder nazi's imported from Lviv to destroy things in Kiev, Che Guevara wannabees, hooligans and all around filth of Ukrainian society.
can anyone explain to me how is that not an insult and not deserving of at least a warning? Dozens of those "nationalists" died today fighting for their country or trying to save lives while being shot at.
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Website feedback is the place to go, but you might be on to something here.
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Pro-Yanukovich politics (and their families) en masse have been leaving the country today, many of those are MPs. The local airport Zhulyany had lots of VIP charter flights scheduled, much more than usually. Also a lot of cash-in-transit guard vehicles were noticed in the airport. Armed people were unloading and carrying inside heavy bags.
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@Sub40APM, r.Evo, Cheerio
sure, but i think it's worth noting re: ghanburgian's answer to zeo (at least one was active in georgia-russia war) and the slant of the average post in the thread.
i'm not waving pom-poms before i know what team is being fielded.
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On February 21 2014 09:59 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 08:32 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 08:11 Ghanburighan wrote:Most important development currently: + Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/EastOfBrussels/status/436612560423362560 So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight. Those are not changes to the Constitution, only 226 votes were needed to accept the laws and they had more than that. Yanukovich can refuse to sign it though, but every casualty afterwards will be blamed on him. P.S. and you thinking that PMs joining Euromaidan cause are going for the $$$ just shows how incredibly biased you are. Even politicians value human lives. Well, at least some of them.
Note: what was voted wasn't a law, it was something called enactment, and as such it can't be vetoed by the President. It can only be cancelled by the Higher Court, something that is unlikely to happen, since they would then assume responsibility for all the sebsequent casualties.
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On February 21 2014 11:21 nunez wrote:
@Sub40APM, r.Evo, Cheerio
sure, but i think it's worth noting re: ghanburgian's answer to zeo (at least one was active in georgia-russia war) and the slant of the average post in the thread.
i'm not waving pom-poms before i know what team is being fielded.
There are no clean hands, but the possibility of joining the EU increases the probability of positive reforms. Slovakia in the mid 90s had a nasty fascist in charge and after the Germans finished turning it into a big car factor after EU ascension things seemed to have calmed down a bit...
More controversially, having a large number of fascists in the country doesnt make it super unique for a European country these days -- unfortunately. France had a nazi win 20% of the vote in a presidential election, Italy has a fascist party and the grand daughter of Mussolini in government, Austria and Netherlands had right wing xenophobes form governments, so does Hungary for that matter, Croats were involved in a round of ethnic cleansing part of their country just 20 years ago, the UK conservatives are about to be split by a new far right party, the Swiss just elected a party so xenophobic its worried about GERMAN immigration and so forth.
It doesnt excuse any of the right wing bullshit but it seems to me in terms of reflecting popular opinion of a disgusting minority, Ukraine is on par with many EU nations. In fact the only ones I cant think of who have a big fascist minority are the Germans (good for you guys, way to control your natural urge to rule and conquer! the Scandinavians and the Iberians.)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SGqL3TT.jpg)
Not the biggest contribution to the thread, but the photo really stands out to me.
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On February 21 2014 12:35 Saryph wrote:
Not the biggest contribution to the thread, but the photo really stands out to me.
I saw it on a local news website and most of my friends agree, this guy is a paladin.
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03:38: Deputy chief of Ukraine's armed forces general staff, Lt-Gen Yuriy Dumansky has submitted his resignation in protest against the army's involvement in the conflict, Ukraine's Channel 5 reports.
Like I thought, Yanukovich couldnt convince enough army units to be loyal to him. And he doesnt have enough Berkut to overwhelm the square without heavy weapons.
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On February 21 2014 06:28 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 06:12 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:54 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 05:13 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:03 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 04:38 Saryph wrote:On February 21 2014 04:32 Sokrates wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive. On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order. How about neither? People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that. It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder. But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons. I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. Also there is your 'run-of-the-mill' sociopath that would use the large scale disorder to kill people at random. Please. Paratrooper squads and special forces come to the city and people start falling right and left from sniper fire? Ah it must have been a coincidence. There are other possibilities like "run-of-the-mill" sociopath. Afghan veterans from 80's with equipment from 90's. What else, in your denial, will you invent? I don't see the point of your post... You seem to believe no one other than the military or police knows how to use a gun. This is false. I'm sure people and things are described as 'militant wings of the revolution' because they have nothing to do with guns. Here is a Time interview with one of your peaceful protesters http://world.time.com/2014/02/04/ukraine-dmitri-yarosh-kiev/Show nested quote +In his interview with TIME, Yarosh, whose militant brand of nationalism rejects all foreign influence over Ukrainian affairs, revealed for the first time that Pravy Sektor has amassed a lethal arsenal of weapons. He declined to say exactly how many guns they have. “It is enough,” he says, “to defend all of Ukraine from the internal occupiers” — by which he means the ruling government — and to carry on the revolution if negotiations with that government break down.
I like how you choose to ignore phrases like "precision shot", "sniper fire" etc. That way you can go ahead with your conspiracy theories and inventing stuff out of your ass. I need to unlearn reading with comprehension.
And these people you talk about they ain't my protesters, do you seriously think that I am supporting Svoboda? The same people who glorify mass murderers like Bandera? Who in my opinion was no better than Stalin or Lenin, though he was acting on smaller scale? Then again there are other people out there who protest, though the far-right groups make the loudest noise.
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On February 21 2014 10:25 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 09:36 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 09:22 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 05:54 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 05:13 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:03 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 04:38 Saryph wrote:On February 21 2014 04:32 Sokrates wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive. On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order. How about neither? People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that. It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder. But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons. I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection? Roman666 said that the rioters did not have guns, and even if they had them they wouldnt know how to use them. That's just bullshit. First of all there is not much to using a gun, you just aim and press the trigger. Secondly many of those men served in the army. Some of those actually do own guns. And others could have been visiting a shooting range regularly.
I never said that rioters did not have guns, I said they do not have weapons and training capable of making precision shots. Zeo has serious issues with ability of reading with comprehension. Or he simply prefers to troll for the sake of it.
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On February 21 2014 14:04 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:25 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 09:36 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 09:22 Cheerio wrote:On February 21 2014 05:54 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 05:13 Roman666 wrote:On February 21 2014 05:03 zeo wrote:On February 21 2014 04:38 Saryph wrote:On February 21 2014 04:32 Sokrates wrote:On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote:
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated. I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive. On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither? People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that. It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder. But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons. I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. So do you have any proofs that Afghanistan war veterans are behind those missing military hardware? Or you just pull out two random facts and assume a connection? Roman666 said that the rioters did not have guns, and even if they had them they wouldnt know how to use them. That's just bullshit. First of all there is not much to using a gun, you just aim and press the trigger. Secondly many of those men served in the army. Some of those actually do own guns. And others could have been visiting a shooting range regularly. I never said that rioters did not have guns, I said they do not have weapons and training capable of making precision shots. Zeo has serious issues with ability of reading with comprehension. Or he simply prefers to troll for the sake of it.
You don't need to go at such lengths to prove that government snipers were behind the killings. In pretty much every video available if you are familiar with the local geography it's perfectly clear that the bullets went from the territory controlled by the governmental forces (upper Institutskaya st.).
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Yanukovich and the opposition have been negotiating with the help of some EU MFAs and some Russian guys for 9 hours now. No results yet, besides the fact that one of the Russians has already left (Russian Ambassator in Ukraine; around 3 hours ago).
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EPT
