On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:32 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder.
But why would the police shoot at medical personal? This feels like 'Assad used chemical weapons' all over again. There are militant Right Sector groups all around the place wearing yellow armbands and posing as law enforcers. There is absolutely no way anyone can know who is shooting at medics. Jumping to conclusions solves nothing
Yes it solves shit. But then again, I seriously doubt that "wild animals" as you called them few posts before, are capable of taking precision shots without proper training and weapons.
I know I mentioned paramilitary groups when I made that post. There are many Afghanistan war veterans with the protesters in western Ukraine, with the large stockpiles of military hardware that went missing during the 90's its very hard to believe they don't have the means to pull something like this off. Also there is your 'run-of-the-mill' sociopath that would use the large scale disorder to kill people at random.
Please.
Paratrooper squads and special forces come to the city and people start falling right and left from sniper fire? Ah it must have been a coincidence. There are other possibilities like "run-of-the-mill" sociopath. Afghan veterans from 80's with equipment from 90's. What else, in your denial, will you invent?
I don't see the point of your post... You seem to believe no one other than the military or police knows how to use a gun. This is false. I'm sure people and things are described as 'militant wings of the revolution' because they have nothing to do with guns.
In his interview with TIME, Yarosh, whose militant brand of nationalism rejects all foreign influence over Ukrainian affairs, revealed for the first time that Pravy Sektor has amassed a lethal arsenal of weapons. He declined to say exactly how many guns they have. “It is enough,” he says, “to defend all of Ukraine from the internal occupiers” — by which he means the ruling government — and to carry on the revolution if negotiations with that government break down.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
Yes, and there is an interview with a woman and member of Yanuks party on SPON. To the question why do the police shoot, she states that they are not even hard enough! That are the people you are rooting for zoe.
On February 21 2014 06:08 farvacola wrote: "There's no such thing as anti-western resentment"
This is wrong.
Come on, it wasn't that long ago that any criticism of the Bush administration's foreign policy was claimed to be due to anti-Americanism.
Maybe there are some simple minded people who see the west as a monolithic bloc of Coke drinking, gay, Christian crusaders from Holywood but I'm sure it's a very small group. Don't confuse criticism of western foreign policy (to the extent that it even exists) with criticism of the 'west' in general.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
It also just means glory to ukraine. And this isnt really the place to discuss inter war Polish-Ukrainian relations.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Before you know it, we are going to have the singing of national anthems before practically every public function. Who knows what's next.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem? Just because some nationalistic asshole at some point used Glory to Ukraine doesnt allow Polish nationalists to delineate how Ukrainians use their language, it isnt 1930s anymore.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem? Just because some nationalistic asshole at some point used Glory to Ukraine doesnt allow Polish nationalists to delineate how Ukrainians use their language, it isnt 1930s anymore.
I'm not saying you shouldnt use phrases like that. I dont even know enough of the history involving that to judge it. all i'm saying is that people that know about such stuff MIGHT missunderstand you and that it could cause problems.
Well we dont really use Deutschland über alles, in fact that part is banned here and you would get into trouble singing that
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem? Just because some nationalistic asshole at some point used Glory to Ukraine doesnt allow Polish nationalists to delineate how Ukrainians use their language, it isnt 1930s anymore.
No we don't use it as our national anthem. Maybe you should listen to the text...
On February 21 2014 07:20 Sub40APM wrote: Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem?
Are you kidding me? For quite some time singing the first stanza of the so called 'Deutschlandlied'(which includes the 'Deutschland über alles' part) was a punishable offence.
I strongly disagree that nationalist rhetoric is even slightly acceptable, even during times like this in the Ukraine.
On February 21 2014 01:32 Schmobutzen wrote: @ zeo: No, you don't pull a low one, like me, in insulting someone for their opinion. But you insult the legitimacy of a whole group of protesters - and your own intelligence.
@xM(Z and Sokrates: It is nothing but a burden to tell what one group and the other do and to justify each behavior with the actions of the other group!
The government has the right and the duty to save its people from harm, especially if there are protests and demonstrations. That they did until the second half of december, when they started to storm the tents and heavy handed slap the opposition. And to add insult to injury, they make laws, that are like a second slap to the protesting people! That is one hard to swallow provocation. They should have protested peacefully further, but the radicals sensed their hour. That was a shame and should have been prevented. The police have every right to take good measures to prevent these powers from harming anyone. But. There are ways and there are ways - berkut and police took the easy root, with agent de provocateurs and have-ready-snipers. And now shooting at medics? C'mon, zeo and Sokrates and likeminded, don't let yourself be fooled!
As another poster said: Any decent human beeing in control woud have announced elections.
Edit: stupid lost sentence... and spelling
Where did i say i support the government?!?!? I just hate the blind belief that the protesters are all the nice people and the government is evil. It just too one sided, that is all. Blind faith is to belief this is just good vs evil. In no way i support the government.
So what's your point? That unless there is pure good vs pure evil fighting we should just step back and not support anyone because they are all guilty of at least something?.. Welcome to the real world.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I'd still be carefull which such things, imagine germans chanting "Sieg Heil" when we win a gold medal at the olympics for example. Then imagine the aftermath
Dont you still use Duetchaldn Uber Alles as your anthem? Just because some nationalistic asshole at some point used Glory to Ukraine doesnt allow Polish nationalists to delineate how Ukrainians use their language, it isnt 1930s anymore.
I'm not saying you shouldnt use phrases like that. I dont even know enough of the history involving that to judge it. all i'm saying is that people that know about such stuff MIGHT missunderstand you and that it could cause problems.
Well we dont really use Deutschland über alles, in fact that part is banned here and you would get into trouble singing that
Phrases can be interpreted anyway you want to. For example, German Anthem has three stanzas. You use one of them now, but the first one was used by you when you were into nationalism and killing people. So if I had anti-German sentiments I would interpret that as German's not-so-hidden reminder that they think they are better than me. Is this an incredibly stupid interpretation? Yes. Well, to claim that "Glory to Ukraine" is only related to and used by a group of Ukrainian fascists from the World War 2 is the same level of idiocy. The sentence Glory Ukraine was used in the Ukrainian anthem until 2003. Its an anthem that was adopted by people who would agree that the fascists our Polish brought up are in fact evil fascists.
Very hard evidence of police working together with the so called titushki (gangsters):
There is an aftermath video of this and it clearly shows several dead people.
Why do I post this? Because if there would have been a decent commander of the police and a decent Yanuk, this wouldn't be possible.
That is a very hard weighing argument for the kind of fucked up moral standard this Yanuk has. He is only there for power and himself. Also, this is a hint for who is morally to blame for the whole situation.
The decision on the following has just been adopted: the conviction of the actions of the riot police against the peaceful protesters; return of the riot police (militia, Berkut, officers of the Security Service of Ukraine) from Kyiv to the places of their usual places of stationing; the ban on any kind of limitation of movement of people and vehicles throughout the country (i.e. fixing roadblocks); anti-terrorist operation should immediately be cancelled; all arrested activists during the mass protests should be freed.
what the parliament voted through, taken from the Euromaidanpr facebook! Seems like good news. edit: Слава Україні!
"Слава Україні!" you know even what that mean? It's a salute Ukrainian nationalists used. Those same nationalists that are responsible for genocide of 100000-150000 Poles and thousands of other people, including Ukrainians who opposed them, Jews, Romanians etc. You think Germans were brutal during the war? Read how those Ukrainian nationalists murdered people...
You yourself have no idea. It doesn't matter who and how used it before. This is just words and currently they are used by different people with different meaning. So stop being ignorant. Literal translation is "Glory to Ukraine!". Thats what they mean. Nothing more or less.
I am not dumb, I know what it literally means. And, please, don't pretend to be this stupid. Right now it is being used mainly by people who build statues to fucking scum like Bandera or Shukhevych, people who consider people responsible for the genocide as their national heroes. Those people exist in this very day and age. They are a major part of this whole Maidan. They have significant political power in western parts of Ukraine. Some of them say the genocide never happened, others say it was justified. Some want to tear parts of Poland away from my country (Tiahnybok last year, Prawyj Sektor now).
They all shout "Slava Ukraini! Heroyam slava!". You know who those "heroes" are? Bandera, Shuchevych and their militants - probably the most brutal murderers in modern history of Europe. Compared to them, nazis were very civil... This is what they mean with those salutes.
edit:
Maybe try counting the Ukrainian flags on Maidan and then count the red-black ones...
EPT
