On February 21 2014 01:04 r.Evo wrote: [quote] And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
On December 13 2013 04:40 zeo wrote: People in Ukraine suffer from the same illness that affect many transitional countries (including Serbia). Everybody want a better future but nobody wants to work for it, so the EU is shown as a golden beacon of light where, 'we just have to get in' and gold will flow from the heavens and everyone lived happily ever after. Meanwhile all the other problems are swept aside, all other thing 'we will fix once we get into the EU'. Ukraine should do whats best for them, fix their country and when they are a stable normal society not dependent on anyone chose which side will benefit Ukraine more. Especially when we are talking about a country where a huge chunk of it wants Russia, the other chunk wants EU
You are probably correct about that facter. But there are many other things at play here too: Entering EU is not on the table and frankly I would be surprised if they can make it in before 2024. The Euro is many years further down that line... What they will be given is a small lump of money with a promise for targeted advantages down (To avoid too much of it going to corruption), a lower trade barrier, some lessened visa restrictions and a horde of specific reform-demands.
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable.
Did not see it like that, makes sense. But if they are screwed either way, protests (and the violence that goes with/against it) accomplish nothing. A referendum would be the civil way to go about this, that way when they get fucked over everyone can say 'well we can't blame anyone but ourselves'. The politicians on the Ukrainian scene today are the same ones that were there ten years ago, somehow they are all still getting fat paychecks by leading the country into perpetual revolutions and counter-revolutions. Also populism and cult of personality, it plagues all of the Slavic peoples.
A referendum, simple as that. You want the county to continue EU integration, or not. Except now its become a battle of all the people in Ukraine against the maniacs that took over the protest when EuroMaiden died. If I were telling Yanukovych what to do: 1. Bring back the rule of law, stabilize the country. No amnesty for the protesters. 2. Referendum 3. No matter the result of the referendum step down as president and take all the people involved in Ukrainian politics over the last 20 years (the government and the opposition) with you. 4. Elections
Thing is, Yanukowich must answer the same way as the radical protesters. However, if the country is stabilized under his rule, this will not happen. He will take all the measures to get the immunity for the measures that were taken. Then the people that sacrificed lives, have done it for nothing (and not all of them were radicals). Rule of law means, the same responsibility for the government as much as those protesters who were doing the bloodshed. In a corrupt government like it is now, responsibility will be erased.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
Number one tactic of keyboard warriors for Russia and China and their vassal flunkies (they say the same damn thing over and over and over): you're just some uninformed Westerner full of propaganda (don't say how, just say it. The point is to get that label out there and in people's minds). It's short-sighted (why?) blah blah blah. Not to be offensive to you, but you just don't understand.
We understand fine, sorry. Maybe over there that shit works when people start asking uncomfortable questions and objecting to fucked up bullshit, doesn't over here in our ignorant propagandized West.
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
Is anyone here a representative of a Western government or speaking in defense of them specifically or exclusively or speaking of them in any way specifically or exclusively? No. So, away, red herring, back to the mountain streams.
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Cynicism replacing critical thinking is very prevalent these days. What "all the people in Germany think" means squat beside the unedited video being transmitted from Kiev. Don't trust your media all you want, it's pretty funny that you say something like that while swallowing down nearly anything and everything you hear or read that is negative about the West. The cynicism doesn't operate so consistently then.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
Number one tactic of keyboard warriors for Russia and China and their vassal flunkies (they say the same damn thing over and over and over): you're just some uninformed Westerner full of propaganda (don't say how, just say it. The point is to get that label out there and in people's minds). It's short-sighted (why?) blah blah blah. Not to be offensive to you, but you just don't understand.
We understand fine, sorry. Maybe over there that shit works when people start asking uncomfortable questions and objecting to fucked up bullshit, doesn't over here in our ignorant propagandized West.
I dont understand how what you wrote is related to what i said. Let me clarify for you, maybe since English isn't my native language i didnt put this easy for you. So what i said is that the lines from a guy sounded to simplistic , like some propaganda feeded guy, in this case anti soviet / russia. I myself, lived in ussr, as i lived in post soviet 90 both in russia in ukraine , and it aint pretty times, full of bandits and people stealing, then 2000 same thing just covered up, a bit more. Now i live in the West, this doesn't mean im on someones side ( but you're based on you answer) i dont care for sides, family comes first and home is where you live as simple as that. You care for street you live in, for you city, then comes the district ,provinces , whatever. But i can diferentiate between simple opinions like that, of people who haven't seen the other side at all, you haven't too clearly. Propaganda are on both sides, and i also can spot anti West propaganda from people who haven't experience life here. Is just so happens that there are some clearly short sighted opinions here, and i label them as a typical text book anti soviet / russia opinions , completely grey and formless for me.
On February 21 2014 04:00 Sokrates wrote: All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Please don't speak on my behalf. Firstly I think most of your posts are really stupid and secondly I trust our media and don't think 'this whole thing is 'full of propaganda'.
This west hate is really stupid and not every coin has two sides. People in the Ukraine are literally dying to free themselves from corruption and all the western keyboard warriors are doing is to contribute how awesome Russia is because of their idiotic US/EU/establishment hate.
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
Is anyone here a representative of a Western government or speaking in defense of them specifically or exclusively or speaking of them in any way specifically or exclusively? No. So, away, red herring, back to the mountain streams.
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Cynicism replacing critical thinking is very prevalent these days. What "all the people in Germany think" means squat beside the unedited video being transmitted from Kiev. Don't trust your media all you want, it's pretty funny that you say something like that while swallowing down nearly anything and everything you hear or read that is negative about the West. The cynicism doesn't operate so consistently then.
You call critical thinking being a partisan? I dont think i ever said i agree with the government or anything alike. I just said this whole thing isnt clear cut just like the ukranian poster said. You are making this about good and evil, either you are with us or against us. Just pointing out the bullshit.
On February 21 2014 04:00 Sokrates wrote: All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Please don't speak on my behalf. Firstly I think most of your posts are really stupid and secondly I trust our media and don't think 'this whole thing is 'full of propaganda'.
This west hate is really stupid and not every coin has two sides. People in the Ukraine are literally dying to free themselves from corruption and all the western keyboard warriors is to contribute how awesome Russia is.
Then check out this article and focus on the comments:
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
You sound like you don't have the full information. Innocent people have already died, lots of them. Many unarmed civilians were killed before 18 of february, including those who were kidnapped and tortured to death. Things "got ugly" more than a month ago when government and/or its supporters started to use violence against, at that point, completely peaceful demonstrations.
Well it became Riot pretty quickly, no people died prior to that i think, and if they being kidnaped and tortured, those were people in some relations and with some power, some political afinity related to groups in maidan, maybe innocent but related.I was talking of innocent people who just wanted to help or for whatever reason just stood there.. I guess i can a link a video , and at the start a guy from London describes the situation as it started.
This video would be so much better if they picked someone who can articulate himself properly instead of the guy from Washington in the bottom right. ;;
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
Is anyone here a representative of a Western government or speaking in defense of them specifically or exclusively or speaking of them in any way specifically or exclusively? No. So, away, red herring, back to the mountain streams.
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Cynicism replacing critical thinking is very prevalent these days. What "all the people in Germany think" means squat beside the unedited video being transmitted from Kiev. Don't trust your media all you want, it's pretty funny that you say something like that while swallowing down nearly anything and everything you hear or read that is negative about the West. The cynicism doesn't operate so consistently then.
You call critical thinking being a partisan? I dont think i ever said i agree with the government or anything alike. I just said this whole thing isnt clear cut just like the ukranian poster said. You are making this about good and evil, either you are with us or against us. Just pointing out the bullshit.
On February 21 2014 04:00 Sokrates wrote: All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Please don't speak on my behalf. Firstly I think most of your posts are really stupid and secondly I trust our media and don't think 'this whole thing is 'full of propaganda'.
This west hate is really stupid and not every coin has two sides. People in the Ukraine are literally dying to free themselves from corruption and all the western keyboard warriors is to contribute how awesome Russia is.
Then check out the comments on this article and focus on the comments:
Im confused what you are trying to say. Are you saying that we germans eat the propaga do of our media and think Oppoistion good Yanukowich bad? Because most of the comments i read actually critizised that the EU and USA mostly interfer for their own interest and not for the people. Could you clarifiy your point please?
On February 21 2014 04:15 Gorsameth wrote: Isnt de Spiegel a gossip paper with no real journalistic value or am I thinking of the wrong paper.
No you're thinking of the right paper and 90% of the people in the commentary section are idiots and please don't think their opinion is representative 'for all Germans' : (
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
You sound like you don't have the full information. Innocent people have already died, lots of them. Many unarmed civilians were killed before 18 of february, including those who were kidnapped and tortured to death. Things "got ugly" more than a month ago when government and/or its supporters started to use violence against, at that point, completely peaceful demonstrations.
Well it became Riot pretty quickly, no people died prior to that i think, and if they being kidnaped and tortured, those were people in some relations and with some power, some political afinity related to groups in maidan, maybe innocent but related.I was talking of innocent people who just wanted to help or for whatever reason just stood there.. I guess i can a link a video , and at the start a guy from London describes the situation as it started.
This video would be so much better if they picked someone who can articulate himself properly instead of the guy from Washington in the bottom right. ;;
i Agree , that guy sounded too incompetent compared to the others , but a guy from London is clearly on neither side, and he tells things that oposition shoud've done .
On February 21 2014 04:15 Gorsameth wrote: Isnt de Spiegel a gossip paper with no real journalistic value or am I thinking of the wrong paper.
No you're thinking of the right paper and 90% of the people in the commentary section are idiots and please don't think their opinion is representative 'for all Germans' : (
Be more dishonest to bring your point accross. You are simply a liar and call me stupid.
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
Is anyone here a representative of a Western government or speaking in defense of them specifically or exclusively or speaking of them in any way specifically or exclusively? No. So, away, red herring, back to the mountain streams.
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Cynicism replacing critical thinking is very prevalent these days. What "all the people in Germany think" means squat beside the unedited video being transmitted from Kiev. Don't trust your media all you want, it's pretty funny that you say something like that while swallowing down nearly anything and everything you hear or read that is negative about the West. The cynicism doesn't operate so consistently then.
You call critical thinking being a partisan? I dont think i ever said i agree with the government or anything alike. I just said this whole thing isnt clear cut just like the ukranian poster said. You are making this about good and evil, either you are with us or against us. Just pointing out the bullshit.
On February 21 2014 04:08 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:00 Sokrates wrote: All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Please don't speak on my behalf. Firstly I think most of your posts are really stupid and secondly I trust our media and don't think 'this whole thing is 'full of propaganda'.
This west hate is really stupid and not every coin has two sides. People in the Ukraine are literally dying to free themselves from corruption and all the western keyboard warriors is to contribute how awesome Russia is.
Then check out the comments on this article and focus on the comments:
Im confused what you are trying to say. Are you saying that we germans eat the propaga do of our media and think Oppoistion good Yanukowich bad? Because most of the comments i read actually critizised that the EU and USA mostly interfer for their own interest and not for the people. Could you clarifiy your point please?
I m saying that we are fed up with bad, one sided journalism and this is reflected in the comments that agree with a more critical article.
Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
Der spiegel is one of the most prestigious magazines in germany, you were probably thinking "bild-zeitung".
And no, 'Der Spiegel' wasn't even a prestigious paper 15 years ago, but it was at least readable. All it is today is a jazzed up tabloid paper.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
On February 21 2014 04:15 Gorsameth wrote: Isnt de Spiegel a gossip paper with no real journalistic value or am I thinking of the wrong paper.
No you're thinking of the right paper and 90% of the people in the commentary section are idiots and please don't think their opinion is representative 'for all Germans' : (
Be more dishonest to bring your point accross. You are simply a liar and call me stupid.
You mean the enlightend west that started wars over comic paintings (iraq)?
Is anyone here a representative of a Western government or speaking in defense of them specifically or exclusively or speaking of them in any way specifically or exclusively? No. So, away, red herring, back to the mountain streams.
All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Cynicism replacing critical thinking is very prevalent these days. What "all the people in Germany think" means squat beside the unedited video being transmitted from Kiev. Don't trust your media all you want, it's pretty funny that you say something like that while swallowing down nearly anything and everything you hear or read that is negative about the West. The cynicism doesn't operate so consistently then.
You call critical thinking being a partisan? I dont think i ever said i agree with the government or anything alike. I just said this whole thing isnt clear cut just like the ukranian poster said. You are making this about good and evil, either you are with us or against us. Just pointing out the bullshit.
On February 21 2014 04:08 Nyxisto wrote:
On February 21 2014 04:00 Sokrates wrote: All of people in germany think that this whole thing is full with propaganda from all sides and some of us dont trust our media anymore.
Please don't speak on my behalf. Firstly I think most of your posts are really stupid and secondly I trust our media and don't think 'this whole thing is 'full of propaganda'.
This west hate is really stupid and not every coin has two sides. People in the Ukraine are literally dying to free themselves from corruption and all the western keyboard warriors is to contribute how awesome Russia is.
Then check out the comments on this article and focus on the comments:
Im confused what you are trying to say. Are you saying that we germans eat the propaga do of our media and think Oppoistion good Yanukowich bad? Because most of the comments i read actually critizised that the EU and USA mostly interfer for their own interest and not for the people. Could you clarifiy your point please?
I m saying that we are fed up with bad, one sided journalism and this is reflected in the comments that agree with a more critical article.
of course people dislike poor one sided journalism, atleast people who arent stupid. There are bad people on either side and then again not every police officer at the maidan is evil. If some of them wouldnt have been on duty they could have ended up on the other side of the barricades. Or the other way arround. I welcome every article that doesnt say "look! Ucraine is bad! Just as Russia! We must get them all!" Its good if people have a more critical view on things
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
I cant remember saying it is not evil todo that. It is also evil to smash the skull of a unconscious police officer lying on the ground with a stone. Or burying police officers with molotov cocktails so they burn alive.
On February 21 2014 04:25 Saryph wrote: Sokrates, I'd argue it's pretty evil to purposely shoot (in the neck/head) clearly marked unarmed medics that are trying to treat injured/shot civilians. Unfortunately not all of the people in even this thread seem to agree with that, which is why some people are getting irritated.
Since the whole NSA stuff was revealed some people on this continent have switched from latent anti - Americanism/Westernism into 'Putin is our savior' mode. From their point of view every European or American sanction towards the glorious civilized regime of Yanukovych is just evil imperialism and every person fighting for their freedom is just a scumbag nationalist vandal who is disturbing the peaceful order.
How about neither?
People are so stuck in their archaic "pick your side" that they are unable to see past that.
It can never be the police's response to a few committing crimes to open fire indiscriminately on crowds of innocents. To purposely have snipers attack medics, to use automatic gunfire on crowds watching protesters. People shooting at police are wrong, but the police are never right to shoot to kill at people they know have done no wrong. Police exist to uphold order, not get angry and commit mass murder.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
You sound like you don't have the full information. Innocent people have already died, lots of them. Many unarmed civilians were killed before 18 of february, including those who were kidnapped and tortured to death. Things "got ugly" more than a month ago when government and/or its supporters started to use violence against, at that point, completely peaceful demonstrations.
Well it became Riot pretty quickly, no people died prior to that i think, and if they being kidnaped and tortured, those were people in some relations and with some power, some political afinity related to groups in maidan, maybe innocent but related.I was talking of innocent people who just wanted to help or for whatever reason just stood there.. I guess i can a link a video , and at the start a guy from London describes the situation as it started.
This video would be so much better if they picked someone who can articulate himself properly instead of the guy from Washington in the bottom right. ;;
i Agree , that guy sounded too incompetent compared to the others , but a guy from London is clearly on neither side, and he tells things that oposition shoud've done .
While I liked the way he explains things some of his comparisons are highly awkward.
If you riot (aka pose a risk to public order) that's illegal in pretty much any other European country. However if your police force seems incapable of dispersing the "riot" (for whatever reason) you have two choices. Either you try to deescalate, make sure your forces are set up defensively, try to keep business as usual otherwise and try to... talk about it or you keep storming and push up the violence.
What I've seen since the very beginning of this isn't "Our police force is protecting the rest of the city and population from violent rioters (aka trying to re-establish public order)" - it is "Our police force is protecting a belief system and on the other side are a large proportion of women and elders". That's simply not acceptable and where the comparison to violent rioters in the middle of London ends very quickly.
You don't bring a SWAT team army to disperse a riot, fail at it because it's already bigger than anything you prepared to handle and then start using lethal force because for some weird inexplicable reason all you did was make the mob more angry. You don't issue a general "use lethal force whenever you feel threatened"-command because some of the people in the mob are using firearms. If anything, you announce that people with firearms will be shot on sight (keep in mind that this would be more civil than what is happening right now) and make very, very damn fucking sure that your ranks keep order and don't start fucking up people with red crosses over their chests who are trying to help the wounded.
That's not trying to restore order, it's not protecting the city or your citizens. It's declaring war on your own population.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8FWnwEI.jpg)
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
