On February 21 2014 00:12 wingpawn wrote: It's XXI century.
We're in Europe, western civilization.
I can't believe 400 miles east from me, cops are allowed to shoot to death random people. What kind of people they are? What they are even fighting for? It boggles my mind when I try to think about it. Isn't the time for army to step up and do something?
And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
Turkey didn't have police openly murder random people. Also it is farther from the heart of EU so EU cares less.
I'm always surprised when I remember that Lithuania/Estonia/Poland is the geographical center of Europe. Feels weird and logical at the same time
On February 21 2014 00:12 wingpawn wrote: It's XXI century.
We're in Europe, western civilization.
I can't believe 400 miles east from me, cops are allowed to shoot to death random people. What kind of people they are? What they are even fighting for? It boggles my mind when I try to think about it. Isn't the time for army to step up and do something?
And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
On February 21 2014 01:32 Schmobutzen wrote: @ zeo: No, you don't pull a low one, like me, in insulting someone for their opinion. But you insult the legitimacy of a whole group of protesters - and your own intelligence.
@xM(Z and Sokrates: It is nothing but a burden to tell what one group and the other do and to justify each behavior with the actions of the other group!
The government has the right and the duty to save its people from harm, especially if there are protests and demonstrations. That they did until the second half of december, when they started to storm the tents and heavy handed slap the opposition. And to add insult to injury, they make laws, that are like a second slap to the protesting people! That is one hard to swallow provocation. They should have protested peacefully further, but the radicals sensed their hour. That was a shame and should have been prevented. The police have every right to take good measures to prevent these powers from harming anyone. But. There are ways and there are ways - berkut and police took the easy root, with agent de provocateurs and have-ready-snipers. And now shooting at medics? C'mon, zeo and Sokrates and likeminded, don't let yourself be fooled!
As another poster said: Any decent human beeing in control woud have announced elections.
On February 21 2014 00:12 wingpawn wrote: It's XXI century.
We're in Europe, western civilization.
I can't believe 400 miles east from me, cops are allowed to shoot to death random people. What kind of people they are? What they are even fighting for? It boggles my mind when I try to think about it. Isn't the time for army to step up and do something?
And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Representatives from Germany Poland and France seem to have agreed with Yanukowich on how to handle things (elections,constitution and so) but opposition has to agree on it. and even then its not sure if they really stop the fighting i guess
On February 21 2014 01:04 r.Evo wrote: [quote] And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Immunity to the current government is that part where every opposition gos "no". You dont give immunity to the corrupt officials that send in the military and allowed the police to shoot random civilians.
Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
On February 21 2014 01:23 zeo wrote: [quote] Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Immunity to the current government is that part where every opposition gos "no". You dont give immunity to the corrupt officials that send in the military and allowed the police to shoot random civilians.
Well both sides here will have to give a bit of a ground. It could be an immunity, because I don't think current president and his entourage has any political credibility to get reelected or get back to power. Not after what happened.
On February 21 2014 01:23 zeo wrote: [quote] Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Immunity to the current government is that part where every opposition gos "no". You dont give immunity to the corrupt officials that send in the military and allowed the police to shoot random civilians.
Yeah so it is better to keep fighting till one side wins. Not very smart, really retarded acutally.
On February 21 2014 01:29 Ghanburighan wrote: [quote]
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Immunity to the current government is that part where every opposition gos "no". You dont give immunity to the corrupt officials that send in the military and allowed the police to shoot random civilians.
Yeah so it is better to keep fighting till one side wins. Not very smart, really retarded acutally.
the thing is, giving immunity would probably be the fastest way to end this. The only way i see for Yanukowich stepping down is a) immunity or b)hes fleeing to Russia or somewhere else. I'm sure he knows how mad the people are and that he cant really expect to be threated lightly
On February 21 2014 01:23 zeo wrote: [quote] Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
My solution would be reelections and immunity to the current government asap.
Immunity to the current government is that part where every opposition gos "no". You dont give immunity to the corrupt officials that send in the military and allowed the police to shoot random civilians.
Immunity for whom? Rumours has it that Yanukovych was not on top of the most wanted targts of sanctions from EU to avoid a new Libya or Belarus. The leaders of Berkut and SBU are on top of the list since they are not politicians and have a clear responsibility they seem to have abused.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
You sound like you don't have the full information. Innocent people have already died, lots of them. Many unarmed civilians were killed before 18 of february, including those who were kidnapped and tortured to death. Things "got ugly" more than a month ago when government and/or its supporters started to use violence against, at that point, completely peaceful demonstrations.
On February 21 2014 00:12 wingpawn wrote: It's XXI century.
We're in Europe, western civilization.
I can't believe 400 miles east from me, cops are allowed to shoot to death random people. What kind of people they are? What they are even fighting for? It boggles my mind when I try to think about it. Isn't the time for army to step up and do something?
And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
On December 13 2013 04:40 zeo wrote: People in Ukraine suffer from the same illness that affect many transitional countries (including Serbia). Everybody want a better future but nobody wants to work for it, so the EU is shown as a golden beacon of light where, 'we just have to get in' and gold will flow from the heavens and everyone lived happily ever after. Meanwhile all the other problems are swept aside, all other thing 'we will fix once we get into the EU'. Ukraine should do whats best for them, fix their country and when they are a stable normal society not dependent on anyone chose which side will benefit Ukraine more. Especially when we are talking about a country where a huge chunk of it wants Russia, the other chunk wants EU
You are probably correct about that facter. But there are many other things at play here too: Entering EU is not on the table and frankly I would be surprised if they can make it in before 2024. The Euro is many years further down that line... What they will be given is a small lump of money with a promise for targeted advantages down (To avoid too much of it going to corruption), a lower trade barrier, some lessened visa restrictions and a horde of specific reform-demands.
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable.
Did not see it like that, makes sense. But if they are screwed either way, protests (and the violence that goes with/against it) accomplish nothing. A referendum would be the civil way to go about this, that way when they get fucked over everyone can say 'well we can't blame anyone but ourselves'. The politicians on the Ukrainian scene today are the same ones that were there ten years ago, somehow they are all still getting fat paychecks by leading the country into perpetual revolutions and counter-revolutions. Also populism and cult of personality, it plagues all of the Slavic peoples.
A referendum, simple as that. You want the county to continue EU integration, or not. Except now its become a battle of all the people in Ukraine against the maniacs that took over the protest when EuroMaiden died. If I were telling Yanukovych what to do: 1. Bring back the rule of law, stabilize the country. No amnesty for the protesters. 2. Referendum 3. No matter the result of the referendum step down as president and take all the people involved in Ukrainian politics over the last 20 years (the government and the opposition) with you. 4. Elections
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
You sound like you don't have the full information. Innocent people have already died, lots of them. Many unarmed civilians were killed before 18 of february, including those who were kidnapped and tortured to death. Things "got ugly" more than a month ago when government and/or its supporters started to use violence against, at that point, completely peaceful demonstrations.
Well it became Riot pretty quickly, no people died prior to that i think, and if they being kidnaped and tortured, those were people in some relations and with some power, some political afinity related to groups in maidan, maybe innocent but related.I was talking of innocent people who just wanted to help or for whatever reason just stood there.. I guess i can a link a video , and at the start a guy from London describes the situation as it started.
On February 21 2014 01:04 r.Evo wrote: [quote] And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
On December 13 2013 04:40 zeo wrote: People in Ukraine suffer from the same illness that affect many transitional countries (including Serbia). Everybody want a better future but nobody wants to work for it, so the EU is shown as a golden beacon of light where, 'we just have to get in' and gold will flow from the heavens and everyone lived happily ever after. Meanwhile all the other problems are swept aside, all other thing 'we will fix once we get into the EU'. Ukraine should do whats best for them, fix their country and when they are a stable normal society not dependent on anyone chose which side will benefit Ukraine more. Especially when we are talking about a country where a huge chunk of it wants Russia, the other chunk wants EU
You are probably correct about that facter. But there are many other things at play here too: Entering EU is not on the table and frankly I would be surprised if they can make it in before 2024. The Euro is many years further down that line... What they will be given is a small lump of money with a promise for targeted advantages down (To avoid too much of it going to corruption), a lower trade barrier, some lessened visa restrictions and a horde of specific reform-demands.
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable.
Did not see it like that, makes sense. But if they are screwed either way, protests (and the violence that goes with/against it) accomplish nothing. A referendum would be the civil way to go about this, that way when they get fucked over everyone can say 'well we can't blame anyone but ourselves'. The politicians on the Ukrainian scene today are the same ones that were there ten years ago, somehow they are all still getting fat paychecks by leading the country into perpetual revolutions and counter-revolutions. Also populism and cult of personality, it plagues all of the Slavic peoples.
A referendum, simple as that. You want the county to continue EU integration, or not. Except now its become a battle of all the people in Ukraine against the maniacs that took over the protest when EuroMaiden died. If I were telling Yanukovych what to do: 1. Bring back the rule of law, stabilize the country. No amnesty for the protesters. 2. Referendum 3. No matter the result of the referendum step down as president and take all the people involved in Ukrainian politics over the last 20 years (the government and the opposition) with you. 4. Elections
That might have been a valid point when you suggested it back in December, now that there has been blood, people are after heads. Sorry, it won't work anymore in current situation. Going to referendum, giving amnesty to president, not giving it to protesters after what happened by now, would put the country into even bigger turmoil.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
On February 21 2014 01:04 r.Evo wrote: [quote] And no one seems to give a fuck, that's the worst of it. There shouldn't be any police force in any civilized country allowed to pull this kind of shit. Neither Russia nor the EU aren't doing anything meaningful while people with a damn red cross on their chest are getting shot.
Meanwhile the government in Turkey is using tear gas and water cannons to disperse protesters in Ankara. People being sent to prison for 2 years for chanting slogans deemed 'offensive' to Erdogan and you have complete media blackout in the world.
It all depends on what side of NATO you are on. If the things going on in Ukraine had nothing to do with Russia absolutely no fucks would be given, people would care about it as if it were happening somewhere in Africa. Anyway, I think this picture is interesting (not sure if posted):
Nonsense, the same people heavily criticizing Yanukovich (e.g. front-man from Sweden, Carl Bildt) are vocal critics of Erdogan and his turn against free press. It's been all over the news and twitterverse.
So in fact they are doing nothing, typing in 'condemnation' in google gave no results. Typing 'criticize' gives results from a month ago. Hell, every country is criticized everyday. Don't see EU diplomats going to Ankara to give support for the protests
Thank you Zatic, I should have made it clearer that I was talking about current events. The first link is from 8 months ago, the second one 4 months ago, the third one 2 months ago and the last one from 8 months ago... I don't really see western nations doing anything
What do you expect them to do lol. roll the tanks across the border? Be real for a moment and realize that outside of invasion the EU has no way to get anything done in situations like this outside of telling them there being naughty and to please stop it.
You don't see any difference in the diplomatic rhetoric and the media coverage of events between Ukraine and Turkey?
You criticize basically everything that is posted here, yet you are giving no solution. Then I ask, what is the solution for the situation in Ukraine?
On December 13 2013 04:40 zeo wrote: People in Ukraine suffer from the same illness that affect many transitional countries (including Serbia). Everybody want a better future but nobody wants to work for it, so the EU is shown as a golden beacon of light where, 'we just have to get in' and gold will flow from the heavens and everyone lived happily ever after. Meanwhile all the other problems are swept aside, all other thing 'we will fix once we get into the EU'. Ukraine should do whats best for them, fix their country and when they are a stable normal society not dependent on anyone chose which side will benefit Ukraine more. Especially when we are talking about a country where a huge chunk of it wants Russia, the other chunk wants EU
You are probably correct about that facter. But there are many other things at play here too: Entering EU is not on the table and frankly I would be surprised if they can make it in before 2024. The Euro is many years further down that line... What they will be given is a small lump of money with a promise for targeted advantages down (To avoid too much of it going to corruption), a lower trade barrier, some lessened visa restrictions and a horde of specific reform-demands.
Ukraine is forced to choose but they cannot afford either side. Turning down Russia may worsen their future conditions for buying gas considerably and they still rely heavily on Russia in that regard. On the other hand, EU is demanding a lot without upfronting the money (in fear of them going to corruption). Both choices will hurt a lot, but just defaulting and trying to continue playing both sides will be almost impossible. If they say no to EU, they lose a lot of trade and the relations will be severely severed for the foreseeable future. If they say yes to EU they will get punished by Russia and their need for russian resources will be a lot harder to meet, just as the trade relations likely will suffer. It they keep saying nothing EU will have to put a new deadline up and if conditions aren't met, they have to take the answer of Ukraine as a no. Letting Ukraine do nothing on this issue is not acceptable.
Did not see it like that, makes sense. But if they are screwed either way, protests (and the violence that goes with/against it) accomplish nothing. A referendum would be the civil way to go about this, that way when they get fucked over everyone can say 'well we can't blame anyone but ourselves'. The politicians on the Ukrainian scene today are the same ones that were there ten years ago, somehow they are all still getting fat paychecks by leading the country into perpetual revolutions and counter-revolutions. Also populism and cult of personality, it plagues all of the Slavic peoples.
A referendum, simple as that. You want the county to continue EU integration, or not. Except now its become a battle of all the people in Ukraine against the maniacs that took over the protest when EuroMaiden died. If I were telling Yanukovych what to do: 1. Bring back the rule of law, stabilize the country. No amnesty for the protesters. 2. Referendum 3. No matter the result of the referendum step down as president and take all the people involved in Ukrainian politics over the last 20 years (the government and the opposition) with you. 4. Elections
Easier said than done.They kinda threw that option out of the window when they decided to start massacring their own Civilians.
On February 21 2014 02:26 Greem wrote: Stuff that matters isn't really shown in any videos. This discussion got no right answer, i see most people in last few pages got strongly different opinion then Zeo from Serbia user for example, however as bad as the situtiaton looks on videos, you can't really draw important conclusions from videos or media nowadays. You can even call the Cold War or the fall of Soviet Union the cause of all this, since the economy was going down ever since, in all ex soviet respublics, people are poor and desperate, but its more noted nowadays with all the media access, people can compare stuff, and when in comparison you look clearly marginated , with less stuff then the neigbour , well you gonna get in rampage sooner or later, it coud've happpened with orange revolution, but instead it happened now. There are a lot of sides involved and a lot of intervention from different opossite forces . Its too complex to analyze it as simple as i keep reading .
One thing is clear to me, one valuing their life should not go near places where rioters and polices are present, sooner or later things get ugly and inocent will die, and there is no clear side to blame, there is no black and white here. Red or Blue.
So please don't draw you conclusions from media or videos, its just sad to see all this happen, its wrong but its a culmination of many years, not just Yanukovich,Putin or whatever name you could insert here.
People are protesting against the corrupt government, the oligarchy based on personal connection. This is Russia's model, and the model Russia wants Ukraine to follow. Obviously you blame the people in charge.
This is like reading text book anti soviet/russian propaganda feeded person, i dont think its offensive towards you, but instead you comment it so short sighted that i cannot describe it too much. Its like describing a Starcraft strategy basing all the facts in 1 match up and 1-2 builds, im sorry if i offend you political knowledge but i think my experience living during soviet union and then in 90/2000 in Ukraine / Russia and aftewards in western countries gives myself some room to maneuver between opinions of this kind. Too short, im sorry.
Number one tactic of keyboard warriors for Russia and China and their vassal flunkies (they say the same damn thing over and over and over): you're just some uninformed Westerner full of propaganda (don't say how, just say it. The point is to get that label out there and in people's minds). It's short-sighted (why?) blah blah blah. Not to be offensive to you, but you just don't understand.
We understand fine, sorry. Maybe over there that shit works when people start asking uncomfortable questions and objecting to fucked up bullshit, doesn't over here in our ignorant propagandized West.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8FWnwEI.jpg)
