On February 22 2014 02:16 Evilmystic wrote: Already acting in accordance with the restored 2004 Consitution parliamentaries voted to dismiss acting interior minister Zakharchenko, who is blamed for the escalation of violence, it's rumored that he's currently fleeing the country. They've also passed a law that decriminalizes actions for which Yulia Tymoshenko has been convicted, though it still should be signed by Yanukovich to come in force.
Speaking of Tymoshenko, is she still very popular in Ukraine? She and the whole "orange revolution" crew seems to be very unreliable. I hope Ukrainians will choose better leaders this time.
After what regime of Yanukovich has done to her she would be most useful for bringing it down. Especially in making sure that everyone who was part of that incredibly corrupt government is held responsible. In situations like this one there is always a threat that the responsibility for the crimes of the past will be bought out.
I think that your logic is flawed. She has failed before, do you think she's going to be a good leader because she's angry at Yanukovich now? Refusing to bargain with Yanukovich and his team is naive. Your country needs his cooperation to get out of this awful situation.
On February 22 2014 02:16 Evilmystic wrote: Already acting in accordance with the restored 2004 Consitution parliamentaries voted to dismiss acting interior minister Zakharchenko, who is blamed for the escalation of violence, it's rumored that he's currently fleeing the country. They've also passed a law that decriminalizes actions for which Yulia Tymoshenko has been convicted, though it still should be signed by Yanukovich to come in force.
Speaking of Tymoshenko, is she still very popular in Ukraine? She and the whole "orange revolution" crew seems to be very unreliable. I hope Ukrainians will choose better leaders this time.
After what regime of Yanukovich has done to her she would be most useful for bringing it down. Especially in making sure that everyone who was part of that incredibly corrupt government is held responsible. In situations like this one there is always a threat that the responsibility for the crimes of the past will be bought out.
I think that your logic is flawed. She has failed before, do you think she's going to be a good leader because she's angry at Yanukovich now? Refusing to bargain with Yanukovich and his team is naive. Your country needs his cooperation to get out of this awful situation.
Agreed. Timoshenko IS a corrupt populist who would rather bring the country down around her than lose an inch of power. She stabbed Yushenko in the back, she cooperated with Putin, she would have even worked with Yanukovich if he wasnt so stupid. She will complete the Argenatinization of Ukraine.
I wonder what will they do with ultra-nationalists and anarchists which are refusing to accept the deal. I just saw on news that anarchists put a banner which says "Kill all journalists and medics". lol wtf?
Anyways this deal is a step forward,but this is still very far from a long term solution.
On February 22 2014 04:52 Liman wrote: I wonder what will they do with ultra-nationalists and anarchists which are refusing to accept the deal. I just saw on news that anarchists put a banner which says "Kill all journalists and medics". lol wtf?
Anyways this deal is a step forward,but this is still very far from a long term solution.
the normal citizens will go home and they'll get the same thing they get after a soccer game. What far right people always forget in situations like this is that it isnt their love of violence that keeps them safe, its the bodies of the common citizens.
On February 22 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote: the normal citizens will go home and they'll get the same thing they get after a soccer game. What far right people always forget in situations like this is that it isnt their love of violence that keeps them safe, its the bodies of the common citizens.
I wouldn't be so sure. Police forces are demoralized and bereft of leadership, while radical groups got their hands on firearms. Hopefully the leaders of far right won't let things spin out of control.
On February 22 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote: the normal citizens will go home and they'll get the same thing they get after a soccer game. What far right people always forget in situations like this is that it isnt their love of violence that keeps them safe, its the bodies of the common citizens.
I wouldn't be so sure. Police forces are demoralized and bereft of leadership, while radical groups got their hands on firearms. Hopefully the leaders of far right won't let things spin out of control.
The police might not actually come after them but what are their options? Storm parliament? Then they get shot and no one cares because everyone sane has gone home. Go through the streets burning things? Same thing, if ordinary people doesn't get them first.
The police might let them sit on the square and freeze for a couple of weeks but that hardly matters.
Guy above us said it best, it's not the propensity for violence that keep the extremist safe it's the fact that they are backed up by so many normal citizens. Striking out in small groups from a huge mass is insanely effective against police, but gathering a few hundred people and trying to actually fight the police get's you absolutely crushed.
On February 22 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote: the normal citizens will go home and they'll get the same thing they get after a soccer game. What far right people always forget in situations like this is that it isnt their love of violence that keeps them safe, its the bodies of the common citizens.
I wouldn't be so sure. Police forces are demoralized and bereft of leadership, while radical groups got their hands on firearms. Hopefully the leaders of far right won't let things spin out of control.
I don't think so. If anything police would use that opportunity to exact vengeance upon them. Now there are only radicals present, police would have even less moral doubts about it.
On February 22 2014 05:20 Sub40APM wrote: the normal citizens will go home and they'll get the same thing they get after a soccer game. What far right people always forget in situations like this is that it isnt their love of violence that keeps them safe, its the bodies of the common citizens.
I wouldn't be so sure. Police forces are demoralized and bereft of leadership, while radical groups got their hands on firearms. Hopefully the leaders of far right won't let things spin out of control.
I dont know how old you are so maybe you wont remember what happened but let me give you an example from our shared history: When the Communist hardliners tried to overthrow Gorbachev, they failed because despite having the army on their side the people came out and physically blocked it. The Army not being an Army of some 3rd world barbarian state like Syria didnt want to murder normal citizens and the coup failed. On the other hand, when the Russian Parliament 'rebelled' against Yeltsin and he ordered the tanks out the common people were either indifferent or on Yeltsin side and you saw T-80s shooting in the middle of Moscow at the legislature. Ukraine has had many mass protests, the reason why in 04 and today they are effective is because the majority of the protesters are common people and most policemen and soldiers will not shoot them. It also has like most European countries a lot of fascist thugs who try to start violence for the sake of violence, they are brutalized by a police that recognizes that the people are on their side.
Yanukovich hes left for Harkiv. He was accompanied by Parliament Speaker Rybak, and Head of the Presidential Administration Klyuev. A large gathering for the representatives from Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine has been scheduled in Harkiv for tomorrow. Yanukovich might go to Russia from there, as his plane's preliminary route suggests. Yanukovich was apparently in a rush, the flight wasn't planned before and he didn't go back to his residence before leaving.
On February 22 2014 07:07 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Did anyone mentioned drugs in a free tea for riots? Basicly most of those riots don't even know what kind of tea they drunk
On February 22 2014 03:31 Maenander wrote: I just don't see how the Ukraine can stabilize with a population that is so divided.
Maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea to give some of the eastern regions the possibility to secede and join Russia via a referendum or something similar to create a country where the majority of people actually have similar political interests.
It might be hard to end a marriage but sometimes a divorce is the only healthy option for all involved (#FreeScotland).
Kazakhstan had 50% of its population made up of Russians in 1990, but they became independent. Today, Kazakhstan has as many ethnic Russians as Ukraine does and the second language is Russian. Yet this massive minority doesnt have a problem living in a state that is much more alien to their culture than Ukraine is (Muslim, speakers of a Turkish language) and doesnt routinely have politicians who represent them try to push for Russian annexation and colonization.
On February 22 2014 07:07 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Did anyone mentioned drugs in a free tea for riots? Basicly most of those riots don't even know what kind of tea they drunk
On February 22 2014 07:14 Cheerio wrote: Yanukovich hes left for Harkiv. He was accompanied by Parliament Speaker Rybak, and Head of the Presidential Administration Klyuev. A large gathering for the representatives from Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine has been scheduled in Harkiv for tomorrow. Yanukovich might go to Russia from there, as his plane's preliminary route suggests. Yanukovich was apparently in a rush, the flight wasn't planned before and he didn't go back to his residence before leaving.
I don't think he'll go to Russia just yet, he'll try to consolidate control over eastern Ukraine from Kharkov and either dig in or demand concessions to get him to not dig in.
On February 22 2014 07:14 Cheerio wrote: Yanukovich hes left for Harkiv. He was accompanied by Parliament Speaker Rybak, and Head of the Presidential Administration Klyuev. A large gathering for the representatives from Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine has been scheduled in Harkiv for tomorrow. Yanukovich might go to Russia from there, as his plane's preliminary route suggests. Yanukovich was apparently in a rush, the flight wasn't planned before and he didn't go back to his residence before leaving.
I don't think he'll go to Russia just yet, he'll try to consolidate control over eastern Ukraine from Kharkov and either dig in or demand concessions to get him to not dig in.
Lots of translated stuff from Ukrainian tweets and media reports there.
I wish he could go straight to Russia, without staying in a city where I live, don't wanna people get killed or wounded here. But seems like Kharkov is the last stronghold for him and he's mates :/
I just hope the government wins out in all this. This whole "revolution" is just a bunch of people who're pissed off that the government doesn't want to join the EU and took a loan from Russia. Anyone who says their country should join that god awful union needs to be set on fire in the streets.
The retreat of the governmental forces has been so massive that it's now Euromaidan activists guarding the governmental institutions from maradeurs or provocations.
On February 22 2014 07:14 Cheerio wrote: Yanukovich hes left for Harkiv. He was accompanied by Parliament Speaker Rybak, and Head of the Presidential Administration Klyuev. A large gathering for the representatives from Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine has been scheduled in Harkiv for tomorrow. Yanukovich might go to Russia from there, as his plane's preliminary route suggests. Yanukovich was apparently in a rush, the flight wasn't planned before and he didn't go back to his residence before leaving.
update: the plane didn't land in Kharkiv and went straight to Sochi. Probably because the city is not safe right now. Thousands of protesters are reported to be roaming the streets.
On February 22 2014 07:14 Cheerio wrote: Yanukovich hes left for Harkiv. He was accompanied by Parliament Speaker Rybak, and Head of the Presidential Administration Klyuev. A large gathering for the representatives from Eastern and Southern regions of Ukraine has been scheduled in Harkiv for tomorrow. Yanukovich might go to Russia from there, as his plane's preliminary route suggests. Yanukovich was apparently in a rush, the flight wasn't planned before and he didn't go back to his residence before leaving.
update: the plane didn't land in Kharkiv and went straight to Sochi.
Ah, time for a face-to-face chat with the Sithlord.
EPT
