SPL Casters (SNM/Whiplash) Appreciation/Criticism - Page 4

On January 21 2013 12:55 vol_ wrote:
I like a lot of people in the thread think Whiplash is OK but SNM is just not cut out to be a caster. I appreciate his translations of the player interviews but that is all he should be doing.

On January 21 2013 12:26 wrathofconn wrote:

Yeah, sick lack of knowledge about the person you're critiquing.

On January 21 2013 11:59 Alryk wrote:
This is definitely good, and I think it's something that they should definitely refer back to, hopefully assuming that this thread doesn't get closed.

From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:

The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can. I don't say that to be mean, but rather to be honest. And like I said, I can definitely tell that y'all are trying to improve. Part of the game sense that makes progamers like Grubby such good casters is that they play the game so much. You can't simply read up on it, watch streams, etc. to get an understanding of the game; you have to play. And while I don't know exactly what league y'all are etc, the more you play, the more you should come to understand exactly what's happening.

The reason that I brought that up is partially the first thing that I see that is flawed. A lot of the time, y'alls predictions or "what they should do" about a game is flawed, especially in the beginning of the game. If you don't understand enough about how to analyze the game, then study it in the background, but while you're in the game just have play by play. Think casters like Totalbiscuit or CatsPajamas in the past. They weren't the most analytical casters (by self admission, at least TB I remember him saying it once); but people love them because they have excellent play by play. Often times the best casting duos are composed of a play by play expert and an analytical expert (Tastosis, Apollo + Biscuit, Bitterdam), and people love them.

I sincerely hope that y'all are watching Tastosis (and others, but especially them) cast Code S. That will be the best place for y'all to expand on what you're learning in game, as well as how to deliver it. Y'all come off (to me) as trying to be analytical, and failing. That's the main reason that you get a lot of criticism imo. Talking about what you think a player is going to do, but being 100% wrong because you were trying to bluff confidence doesn't work. Just go with the play by play for now until you can talk about how builds interact.

Next point: learn about other leagues

Learn about the other leagues. This will be pretty short because I only really remember one example, but it comes up in one of the ZvZ's where SNM (I think) talked about how nobody goes mutas in SPL, so it will be interesting to see what will happen or something along the lines of that (I think it was Stephano vs. somebody). Look into the GSL, like I said. Leenock and some others are really, really proficient at Muta ZvZ. Learn how those games play out, and talk about it. It will again help with your understanding of SPL and the games there.

Next point: Supply isn't everything

This is one of the biggest issues, part of it coming from not being able to analyze the game properly. I can't name something specific, but one of the most annoying things that y'all have done (in my eyes) is calling the game based on supply. Looking at a zerg who's 40 supply up on Roach/Ling doesn't mean the game is over (unless its ZvZ). I wish I could think of a specific example, and I'll watch y'all cast tonight, and if I see anything, I'll update this post. Just remember that there are upgrades, production, economy, etc. and everything is a factor. If somebody is down 20 supply, but down 50 workers, they have a huge timing window to do some damage. Y'all have definitely made that mistake, where somebody has no workers and you say the game is over, and then have to backtrack when they leverage their army and win. I'll update with something specific if I see it tonight.

Final point: Work on your pronunciation?

This is also going to be short, and I'll update it tonight, because it happens every night (SNM particularly). Work on your pronunciation. Casting is like an essay - try not to repeat phrases every 2 seconds. I don't remember exact phrases, but I know it's happened, and I'll post an example when I hear one.

Secondly - Try and think about how your words are going to flow as you talk. This is definitely improving from the beginning of the year, but keep working on it. Occasionally y'all start to say something and it just doesn't make sense.

I've been watching from the beginning, and occasionally I switch audio just to hear analysis from a masters player who streams himself casting. Y'all are improving for sure, and I'm glad to see it. You're definitely putting in the work; just keep it up. I don't hate your casting, it just needs improvement.

TL;DR for y'all:
1) Ladder more
2) Watch GSL
3) Watch GSL vods
4) Listen to other liked casters
5) Work on pronunciation

Thank y'all for casting SPL, and I'll still be tuning in tonight. It is certainly not a cast that is "so bad that I can't watch" so please keep improving for us and thank you!

Edit: Like others have said, I prefer whiplash to SNM.

On January 21 2013 13:16 lichter wrote:
I would like to mention that a lot of people who mention that "they get their analysis incorrect" should be saying "they are predicting the game wrong". Analysis happens after the fact; and they often do a decent job of analyzing what has happened. Not perfect, not great, but they are definitely improving. However Whiplash and SNM currently aren't able to predict builds/outcomes/strategies very well. I think this is what most of these people are complaining about, but I think it is important that they word their criticism correctly. Predicting games and analyzing them are different. A lot of the "high masters players" criticizing them for being wrong in their predictions are being harsh, because even pros have a hard time exactly predicting what will happen a minute or two later. Even Tastosis, Wolfdor, Bitterdam, and other casters make wrong predictions every game. We should ask for improvement and criticize properly so they know what to develop. On this point, I do think that they should avoid predicting and focus on describing and analyzing. Predicting builds isn't of much use--to be honest it is just a game knowledge brag if anything--so I'd rather they focus on what is happening than what might. It'll reduce the chances of them getting something wrong, too.

Personally I think they are improving. They just need to work on some chemistry, as well as avoiding the things that their audience say they don't like. I also agree that the best caster combos typically have one person in charge of analysis and game knowledge and one person in charge of info/descriptions/entertainment/hype. It is an effective formula that they could try out.

On January 21 2013 13:00 Paramo wrote:
I really like Whiplash. He (to me) seems to have a decent amount of game knowledge and knows how to bring it up. He also has a likeable personality unlike SMN. SMN... man you gotta step it up:

1) dont cut off Whiplash, it makes you sound rude and make the cast awkward.
2) You use first person waaaaaay to much when explaining things.
3) You cut off your own arguments to say something insignificant like "...But now we see a zergling kill a marine!"
4) You seem reluctant to incorporate humor or have a off topic conversation with your co-caster. Sure you dont want to abuse this but you do need to make use of this resources to make the cast more entertaining to watch. Especially after we have seen the same openings all night long.
5) Your voice inflection seems way off at times. Dont know how to make this a more useful observation but its just something I feel and might be completely wrong about.

Go go SMN, you already have some very rare positive points, if you can improve on those points i think you two could offer a much better SPL experience.

On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote:
I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.

I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys.
I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?

Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement.
Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either.
Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.

Cheers

On January 21 2013 13:19 nakedsurfer wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I just want to reiterate what Alryk said.
It's not only very well structured but nails the head on the coffin. These are great ways to improve ones casting.
Everyone starts somewhere, you guys just got thrown into a much too large of a role as of right now but just keep improving.