I've been a devoted SPL viewer since the hybrid league and am enjoying it very much. At first I was skeptical about the new casters, Whiplash and Supernovamaniac, mostly based on the negative reception the community displayed towards them, as well as a couple of mistakes they made while casting.
Over the course of SPL so far, however, I've grown to like them both very much. I really admire the amount of work they put into recording statistics, interesting storyline, and incorperating both bw and sc2 history. I also really enjoy the Korean translations for the interviews! As whiplash said himself, they've had mostly negative reception, and its hurtful, but they are trying very hard to improve. They are clearly putting in the work, that much is indisputable. I am also impressed with their increase in game knowledge.
I was curious what everyone else thought of them after having let them settle in for a bit of time. Please post your constructive criticism, things you enjoy about their casting, things they can work on, etc.
PLEASE, if you post criticism, do so with respect. If people get too crazy and start hatefully bashing, I'll PM a mod and ask them to close the thread!
Poll: What do you think of whiplash and SNM's casting now?
I dislike it. (812)
51%
It needs improvement. (560)
35%
I enjoy it! (235)
15%
1607 total votes
Your vote: What do you think of whiplash and SNM's casting now?
(Vote): I enjoy it! (Vote): It needs improvement. (Vote): I dislike it.
And seeing as I know they both read the forums pretty religiously, I want to say directly to them, thank you for your hard work and dedication. You may think nobody likes your casting, but that is a byproduct of the people with negative opinions being more vocal than the guys with positive opinions. Many of the community go through it, even guys like incontrol, so don't let it get you too down.
On January 21 2013 11:46 Son of Gnome wrote: Whiplash is cool, but snm... yeah....
I personally like whiplash more as well, but I feel like snm is growing a lot. The only thing I really don't like about his casting is that he can't handle whiplashes jokes and kinda blows him off and doesn't play along.
I haven't gotten to watch them since R2 started because of work and odd hours but I noticed significant improvement from the start till I stopped watching. I think they will develop into good casters as time goes on.
I watched the matches last night, and enjoy being able to watch with English commentary. I don't know the casters by their voices so i can't say which one it was but felt one of them was trying to do a bit to much off topic/color commentary ... example one kept saying something along the lines that fantasy was the final boss over and over i almost shut it off ... it think both will get better, over all i do enjoy the cast mainly because its in English.
On January 21 2013 11:48 jax1492 wrote: I watched the matches last night, and enjoy being able to watch with English commentary. I don't know the casters by their voices so i can't say which one it was but felt one of them was trying to do a bit to much off topic/color commentary ... example one kept saying something along the lines that fantasy was the final boss over and over i almost shut it off ... it think both will get better, over all i do enjoy the cast mainly because its in English.
I feel everyone should be nicer to casters in general when posting about them (again, you can post criticism/feedback but it can be constructive) because both of them read TL and post on these forums. Whiplash made a few blogs regarding his experiences casting too.
Whiplash is fine -- I rather enjoyed the first day's solo casts when SNM hadn't arrived yet. But I find myself mostly listening to the korean commentary or alternate casts because SNM's presence is so jarring. He seems to do a lot of "prescriptive" commentary as to what he would do in that situation, and I find that incredibly distracting since a lot of it is either wrong / overly presumptuous. Also, he tends to call the situation wrong a lot, and Whiplash has to correct him. It's generally a frustrating experience to try to listen to and most of the time I'll switch audio after about 30 minutes or so.
On January 21 2013 11:48 ConGee wrote: They were awful at the start, but they've gotten a bit better recently. Still need to get better though.
I agree.
In general Whiplash is alright as a caster but SNM is abysmal.
He has no idea what he is talking about, frequently even calls obvious action wrong, has fairly poor English in general and so adds nothing as either an analytical or a play-by-play caster.
I am not super picky with casters but between their bad casting and the constant, repetitive adds (even over top of commentary some times) I frequently turn off this stream.
I've seen people say SNM has a speech impediment, does he legitimately have one, or were they just referring to his constant stumbling over words (which he has since stopped). He uses a lot of odd language, uses the word "huge" wayy too often, it's like it's the only word in his vocabulary that refers to a "large amount of something"; "create" instead of "make", among many others that just sound wrong. I know he's not from America or anything, but I know he knows the appropriate words.
I only ask because I'm a stutterer, not as bad as I used to be, but I used to substitute words that were easier to say, even if it sounded a bit odd. If he does have a speech impediment, then I can relate and understand. But if it's not.. then it's something he really needs to work on.
I also get the impression that has long as he's constantly talking, he's doing his job. Far more often than not, he's just random things that are barely cohesive, let alone correct (lots of casters say a lot of wrong this, but I've never been so annoyed by the quantity of it til I've heard SNM cast every week).
I really feel like being a good caster just isn't in SNM's personality. I could be wrong, probably am, whatever, but I really cannot stand the guy.
I like Whiplash though, no complaints.
edit - They work hard, it's obvious they do a lot of talking between eachother on their days off to see what they can improve on, I appreciate that (not that we should expect less). But the above are my thoughts as of now
No option for 'I dislike it currently, but could see myself liking the casts more as they continue to improve', but that would be my vote. Sure, they've gotten better, but they still have a long way to go.
On January 21 2013 11:54 faiza wrote: No option for 'I dislike it currently, but could see myself liking the casts more as they continue to improve', but that would be my vote. Sure, they've gotten better, but they still have a long way to go.
?
Look at the voting options again. You'll find what you're looking for.
On January 21 2013 11:54 faiza wrote: No option for 'I dislike it currently, but could see myself liking the casts more as they continue to improve', but that would be my vote. Sure, they've gotten better, but they still have a long way to go.
Thats kinda what I was going for with the needs improvement option lol. Like a middle ground.
SNM talks over Whiplash a lot (which is extra bad, as Whiplash is actually decent), he says nonsensical things (directly contradicts himself with his wording), has either a speech impediment or a super-strong accent that's simply unacceptable for a professional broadcaster of anything, has no idea what is going on in the game (has actually criticized a player for "throwing away lings" when counterattacks were the only thing keeping that player in the game, among other horrible misreads of the action) and fakes emotion (sudden gg's having no relation to the tone of the previous cast).
He's really, really bad, and I no longer turn into the twitch stream because of SNM's casting. I only watch the Korean-audio stream, or if that isn't working well, I don't watch Proleague at all.
I don't have anything against the guy personally, but call a spade a spade. He's the worst SC2 caster I've heard yet.
This is definitely good, and I think it's something that they should definitely refer back to, hopefully assuming that this thread doesn't get closed.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can. I don't say that to be mean, but rather to be honest. And like I said, I can definitely tell that y'all are trying to improve. Part of the game sense that makes progamers like Grubby such good casters is that they play the game so much. You can't simply read up on it, watch streams, etc. to get an understanding of the game; you have to play. And while I don't know exactly what league y'all are etc, the more you play, the more you should come to understand exactly what's happening.
The reason that I brought that up is partially the first thing that I see that is flawed. A lot of the time, y'alls predictions or "what they should do" about a game is flawed, especially in the beginning of the game. If you don't understand enough about how to analyze the game, then study it in the background, but while you're in the game just have play by play. Think casters like Totalbiscuit or CatsPajamas in the past. They weren't the most analytical casters (by self admission, at least TB I remember him saying it once); but people love them because they have excellent play by play. Often times the best casting duos are composed of a play by play expert and an analytical expert (Tastosis, Apollo + Biscuit, Bitterdam), and people love them.
I sincerely hope that y'all are watching Tastosis (and others, but especially them) cast Code S. That will be the best place for y'all to expand on what you're learning in game, as well as how to deliver it. Y'all come off (to me) as trying to be analytical, and failing. That's the main reason that you get a lot of criticism imo. Talking about what you think a player is going to do, but being 100% wrong because you were trying to bluff confidence doesn't work. Just go with the play by play for now until you can talk about how builds interact. Next point: learn about other leagues
Learn about the other leagues. This will be pretty short because I only really remember one example, but it comes up in one of the ZvZ's where SNM (I think) talked about how nobody goes mutas in SPL, so it will be interesting to see what will happen or something along the lines of that (I think it was Stephano vs. somebody). Look into the GSL, like I said. Leenock and some others are really, really proficient at Muta ZvZ. Learn how those games play out, and talk about it. It will again help with your understanding of SPL and the games there. Next point: Supply isn't everything
This is one of the biggest issues, part of it coming from not being able to analyze the game properly. I can't name something specific, but one of the most annoying things that y'all have done (in my eyes) is calling the game based on supply. Looking at a zerg who's 40 supply up on Roach/Ling doesn't mean the game is over (unless its ZvZ). I wish I could think of a specific example, and I'll watch y'all cast tonight, and if I see anything, I'll update this post. Just remember that there are upgrades, production, economy, etc. and everything is a factor. If somebody is down 20 supply, but down 50 workers, they have a huge timing window to do some damage. Y'all have definitely made that mistake, where somebody has no workers and you say the game is over, and then have to backtrack when they leverage their army and win. I'll update with something specific if I see it tonight. Final point: Work on your pronunciation?
This is also going to be short, and I'll update it tonight, because it happens every night (SNM particularly). Work on your pronunciation. Casting is like an essay - try not to repeat phrases every 2 seconds. I don't remember exact phrases, but I know it's happened, and I'll post an example when I hear one.
Secondly - Try and think about how your words are going to flow as you talk. This is definitely improving from the beginning of the year, but keep working on it. Occasionally y'all start to say something and it just doesn't make sense.
I've been watching from the beginning, and occasionally I switch audio just to hear analysis from a masters player who streams himself casting. Y'all are improving for sure, and I'm glad to see it. You're definitely putting in the work; just keep it up. I don't hate your casting, it just needs improvement.
TL;DR for y'all: 1) Ladder more 2) Watch GSL 3) Watch GSL vods 4) Listen to other liked casters 5) Work on pronunciation
Thank y'all for casting SPL, and I'll still be tuning in tonight. It is certainly not a cast that is "so bad that I can't watch" so please keep improving for us and thank you!
Edit: Like others have said, I prefer whiplash to SNM.
I think their casting is OK. but there is certainly room for improvements.
I would like them to stop proclaiming 'XX is gonna take the game' every 2 minutes. A lot of the time you are wrong. and that makes you look like an amateur.
On January 21 2013 11:54 faiza wrote: No option for 'I dislike it currently, but could see myself liking the casts more as they continue to improve', but that would be my vote. Sure, they've gotten better, but they still have a long way to go.
Thats kinda what I was going for with the needs improvement option lol. Like a middle ground.
Whiplash is carrying the casting duo undoubtedly. My dislike of them has dropped down less as time goes on, but they are still is a below average casting pair.
The refusal of SNM to play along with Whiplash's jokes is my biggest problem with their dynamic. They're not all great jokes in the first place but it's really jarring when something's set up and SNM just does not acknowledge it at all.
On January 21 2013 11:59 MisterFred wrote: has either a speech impediment or a super-strong accent that's simply unacceptable for a professional broadcaster of anything
A lot of people are saying this, but can you pinpoint what exactly do you mean? I am asking because I don't quite understand what you mean - I have no problems of understanding him and english is not even my first language.
On January 21 2013 11:59 MisterFred wrote: fakes emotion (sudden gg's having no relation to the tone of the previous cast).
He stopped this a long long time ago.
On January 21 2013 12:02 Shinespark wrote: I find them both completely awful.
So constructive!
EDIT: My opinion is that Whiplash is really good and SNM needs to work on few things. I dont have problems understanding him, but it annoys me sometimes that they don't "get" the jokes of the other guy. That will come with more they cast though. Also he should let Whiplash do the analysis probably, but tbh I dont even listen to analysis too much, I have eyes and can see what's happening myself.
Other than that I think their biggest problem is that they are not actually in the game so they cannot doublecheck whatever they are talking about.
I should start by saying that I really appreciate the English casting, as well as the korean translations offered. I also want to let you guys know that you have been steadily improving over the weeks, and casting for an audience can be a lot harder than people seem to think, and in general I think you guys do an excellent job. There is room for improvement, but the same could be said of anyone. As long as you guys are actively taking steps to improve your job (which it seems you are, because I watch all of your casts and love how much you guys have improved over the weeks) than I think the criticism and negativity should be kept to a minimum.
Honestly, a person who is fluent in Korean AND English AND is willing to cast Starcraft games deserves a lot of credit in my book, even if his English doesn't roll off the tongue perfectly.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
I think both are definitely putting in 100%. I can tell they both want to improve and want to deliver a good viewing experience. They do have room for improvement. This is whiplash's first casting gig so it's understandable. It will only take time. I also think they will need to get used to casting with each other to be able to create good flow/excitement throughout the games without stumbling over each other. Give it a few months and i'm sure their commentary will be 100% better.
whiplash is Okay, but i hate how SNM often likes to contradict what whiplash is saying even though whiplash may be right. Its as if they are not on the same team....
we need 2 casters who are casting together... not against each other please.
On January 21 2013 12:09 Kyir wrote: The refusal of SNM to play along with Whiplash's jokes is my biggest problem with their dynamic. They're not all great jokes in the first place but it's really jarring when something's set up and SNM just does not acknowledge it at all.
That's basically one of the reasons I dislike Khaldor, just to say how much not playing along makes the casting awkward. There's just a lot to improve on. You might want me to be constructive here, but the truth is that an improvement in any aspect of casting will be very very welcomed. I've often considered muting the stream but that's pretty awkward, so I often just wait for the Korean vods (something I dislike having to do as I don't enjoy not understanding casts). In the end, just practice your casting, your chemistry and your speech/vocabulary.
On January 21 2013 11:59 MisterFred wrote: has either a speech impediment or a super-strong accent that's simply unacceptable for a professional broadcaster of anything
A lot of people are saying this, but can you pinpoint what exactly do you mean? I am asking because I don't quite understand what you mean - I have no problems of understanding him and english is not even my first language.
Actually, no, I don't think I can come up with the words to describe it. I can understand what he's saying, but there's something very off with the way he pronounces many words, particularly the endings. Generally this gives his speech a mealy-mouthed** quality, as if he can't correctly pronounce some consonants (this is why people have guessed a speech impediment, even though that may not be accurate).
I'd say he can't enunciate, but it goes beyond that.
**edit: to clarify, mealy-mouthed is an older term to describe a certain type of poor speech. The root of the term is sounding like you're talking with your mouth full
I love Whiplash. He's great but the two have some time to work out their chemistry and rhythm. I'm not dissatisfied with the casting but it'll need some work.
Kinda random, but I once had a PM argument (years ago) with SNM. I thought his comments were nonsense. He told me I must not follow proleague at all or else I would know him. It was just kinda interesting to me, as I followed pro league more closely than most, yet I still had no idea. And here, years later, everyone that does follow pro league does in fact know SNM. Sadly, most wish they didn't know him to the extent that they do. His comments were nonsensical in the past, so not sure why they wouldn't be now.
I still think caster bashing is lame. There's just not enough great ones to get worked up over. Before you bash someone, you better be in love with potential replacements. Just doesn't make that much difference. If I can have 2 joes that can't translate Korean to English or 1 horribad caster that can translate, well, give me horribad. My eyes can tell me what's going on, and if the sound bothers me, hey, I'll just mute until the interviews. Being able to translate is getting underrated. I know most people would be like, just have him translate and have 2 other casters. If everyone decides to work for free, then I agree.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
Yeah, sick lack of knowledge about the person you're critiquing.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
Yeah, sick lack of knowledge about the person you're critiquing.
Alyrk is right about SNM's game knowledge though. And since he often talks over whiplash...
They are acceptable now I think. When I first tuned into I honestly think I muted and just turned off to watch korean vod later. But now I can listen and not be bothered.
I've known whiplash for a while and he's always been pretty passionate about getting involved in this stuff. I really respect him for giving pretty much everything he has to finally have gotten the position he has now. However with that said, I still think he could use a bit of work on just general "casting practice". Perhaps more events, or online casting to really be able to articulate himself a bit better.
On the other hand... I personally have no idea who SNM is... but I wouldn't let that affect me if I enjoyed his casting. Unfortunately, he has quite a number of issues to work on ranging from talking over whiplash constantly to just talking about irrelevant things very often.
Basically, they just need to cast together a lot more to build up chemistry if they want to become a good casting duo. Until that point, I will opt into Korean stream as that's what I've been used to for the past who knows how many years anyway.
I really do wish the best of luck to Whiplash though, I'd really like to see him succeed in E-Sports after so many issues as a player.
On January 21 2013 12:09 Kyir wrote: The refusal of SNM to play along with Whiplash's jokes is my biggest problem with their dynamic. They're not all great jokes in the first place but it's really jarring when something's set up and SNM just does not acknowledge it at all.
That's basically one of the reasons I dislike Khaldor, just to say how much not playing along makes the casting awkward. There's just a lot to improve on. You might want me to be constructive here, but the truth is that an improvement in any aspect of casting will be very very welcomed. I've often considered muting the stream but that's pretty awkward, so I often just wait for the Korean vods (something I dislike having to do as I don't enjoy not understanding casts). In the end, just practice your casting, your chemistry and your speech/vocabulary.
The more casters work together the better their dynamic. Khaldor and Wolf originally were so-so, now I've even seen people say they're enjoying them as much as, or more than, Tastosis.
In the end chemistry, clarity and attentiveness are the three features of a caster I'm most drawn to. If it's interesting to listen to people talk together, if I can what they are saying and if they're paying attention to and discussing the game at play then I enjoy the casts. All of this comes with time and practice.
Some people seem to have a penchant for casters that are grandmaster players and thus can predict that an attack at 9:31 will occur with 3 siege tanks, 12 marines, 4 marauders and 3 medivacs after seeing a factory at 24 supply. I don't give a damn about that stuff at all tbh.
You can be intelligent, good at starcraft, a good person, trying your best, and have plenty of other amazing qualities but there is one important thing to keep in mind: if you don't have a casting voice, you're not a caster.
I'm really sorry SNM, you have good game knowledge and everything but I can't stand your voice. You stutter, talk with a lisp constantly and have generally poor co-casting skills, you go from mumbling to screaming or coughing so loud you wake up my entire neighborhood. I can't take this shit anymore man, I skip classes to watch korean stream live so I don't have to listen to you on the VODs.
Sure you aren't getting a lot of help from the production, but when you talk for hours on end and expect people to keep listening, you need an attractive, confident voice and yours is anything but that. Sorry.
What you can work on: Co-casting skills. Whiplash must be so frustrated at times man, I want to punch you I feel so bad for him. EVERY FUCKING TIME he tries to make conversation about something or saying a joke and every time you're like "........... WHATEVER MAN LETHSSS FOCUS ON THE GAME OK JANGBI GETTING HITH FIRST PYLON HERE MAKING WORKERS YES" The fuck man? You're making it awkward for whiplash+all the viewers. I don't care it's not funny, if you don't play along to some extent you amplify how horrible the cast is.
What you can't work on: Your voice. Well maybe but it takes time. It's not a casting voice though. Nothing personal. You're just not made to be a caster. Sorry.
I really hate to bash people, especially on public forums, but both these casters have a significant deficiency of game knowledge which makes their analysis and predictions really hard to listen to. There was a comment in a zvz cast, for example, that hatch first was popular on Ohana because the natural had a tight choke. They have also frequently made the amateur mistake of failing to differentiate between a build/strategy and a composition. And lastly, they both do not do a good job of recognizing and pointing out in their analysis the importance of early game maneuvers. What I mean is that they may describe a game as being decided by the main fight, ignoring the economic damage delt in the early game which swung the outcome of that fight.
I think the best co-casters are the ones that involve one analytical caster and one entertainer. I do not feel like either Whiplash or SNM fills either of these positions at the moment. I think they both try to do a bit of both, but are not exceptional at either, so that is one way I think they can improve.
I favour the analytical caster, but I also like Husky-style casting too. I would like to see each of them pursue one of these, or practice by taking turns focusing on being analytical or entertaining.
I have to say, they have been improving. Sometimes they still make mistakes but overall, I think they are showing good improvement and I want to encourage them. Their hardwork is making a noticeable difference. They need to continue working on their game-knowledge outside of practising their casting. Casting will come naturally the more they do it, but game-knowledge may require more than just casting more.
There is one specific thing that really bugs me though. I would really appreciate it if they stopped speaking as if they know what the players are thinking, and then saying their thoughts in first-person. Often times they are wrong, other times inaccurate, and even at the very best, there is still no way for them to be 100% sure what the players are thinking.
I like them. Was a bit rocky at first and still is but they are improving rapidly. Given time to develop their chemistry I believe they will be quite enjoyable. Plus, it's always a bonus to have a korean/english bi-lingual on commentary for events in Korea.
On January 21 2013 12:11 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: They're acceptable, but need a lot of work. Certainly not Painuser/HD or Moletrap (sc2 version) bad though xD
Painuser is great. I don't get why everyone hated his casting... Out of all the full time casters he was (and still would be) the best (game skill) caster easily and it made his analysis amazing. Really disappointing that he seemed to get dropped by IPL because of the community just because he was slightly monotone or something. I can't even remember what peoples complaints with him were.
On January 21 2013 12:41 Zenbrez wrote: I like Whiplash's jokes, am I the only one?
I like them both. Sure their analysis is not top-notch but I feel like they're improving and they are good enough for me to not switch. I mostly watch SPL for entertainment, not learning or something so it's fine for me.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
no I didn't, how long ago? I clarified at the bottom that whiplash is good, but snm is the one who's analysis is mostly lacking. If I didn't say that, I meant it.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
Yeah, sick lack of knowledge about the person you're critiquing.
calling someone a professional player who was high masters about a year ago is pretty aweful.
i think whiplash is kind of ok, SNM has rly a lot of work to do. im not sure if he could gain enough knowledge whatsoever, whenever he tries to analyze crucial points of a game, i get so incredibly angry, because most average master players would know better in almost all cases. why do you try to analyze if you have no clue what ur talking about? try to do the play by play parts and give them some flair, like TB does. this is the best he could do for now
I like a lot of people in the thread think Whiplash is OK but SNM is just not cut out to be a caster. I appreciate his translations of the player interviews but that is all he should be doing.
Personally, one of the things that I dislike the most about their casting is that they tend to do a lot of analysis of the games, and that analysis is more often than not incorrect. I'm not refering to being wrong when trying to guess what the players are going to do (that's pretty hard unless you clearly identify their strategy or get some clear indicators), but being wrong in the analysis of the game as it develops (e.g. The reason why players do certain things, who's ahead in certain moments of the game, the concept of taking risks, the critical points that lead to a player winning or losing a game, etc.).
I'm not saying that I have an absolute understanding of the game, or that I'm better than any progamer, but because you don't have a limited amount of information (like the players do) you're often times able to identify things they do wrong and things they should have done. These casters try to refer to this things way too much, and they are most of the time wrong, which really annoys me.
I don't dislike their casting in general, their jokes, when they talk about the background of certain players, etc., even though there are some awkward moments when they don't play along with a joke or something. The only thing that really bothers me is when they say things that are clearly wrong.
Take my feedback with a grain of salt, because maybe I'm focusing way too much on the analytical part, which other people may not think is as important as other aspects of casting. However, I think that's something these casters can definitely improve upon (My vote was: "It needs improvement").
Edit: After re-reading my post, I realized it was a bit too harsh. I just wanna say I really appreciate the work they are doing, and I would most certainly not be watching proleague if there wasn't an english cast. I just hope they can improve to make the experience even more enjoyable .
On January 21 2013 12:55 vol_ wrote: I like a lot of people in the thread think Whiplash is OK but SNM is just not cut out to be a caster. I appreciate his translations of the player interviews but that is all he should be doing.
I also agree with this. I'm in tune with Whiplash but I am meh with SNM. I don't have a problem with SNM's speech, just his knowledge of the game
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can.
You do realize that Whiplash himself is/was a professional player right?
Yeah, sick lack of knowledge about the person you're critiquing.
You know, sure, I wasn't aware that he was a known player, but when somebody's most relevant results are a couple of wins in MLG in 2011, excuse me for not knowing about him.
Even if we want to call whiplash a professional player; compare him to Grubby, who IS a professional player. The difference in game knowledge and fluidity of his conversation/analysis is huge. I'm not saying that whiplash is bad, but any well known pro could probably analyze the game better than him. I would put his understanding solidly at a masters level. I'm sure that he knows more about the game than he does when he casts, but you forget things when you're casting. That's not to say it's bad, but the entire point of this thread is supposed to be constructive criticism so that they can improve. I shouldn't have lumped him in with SNM, as a lot of the points I made really only apply to SNM, but he can still improve as well. He is certainly much more fluid and easy-going than SNM sounds. I really think that if Whiplash would become the analytical caster, and SNM could focus on being the play-by-play guy, things could go well.
I really like Whiplash. He (to me) seems to have a decent amount of game knowledge and knows how to bring it up. He also has a likeable personality unlike SMN. SMN... man you gotta step it up:
1) dont cut off Whiplash, it makes you sound rude and make the cast awkward. 2) You use first person waaaaaay to much when explaining things. 3) You cut off your own arguments to say something insignificant like "...But now we see a zergling kill a marine!" 4) You seem reluctant to incorporate humor or have a off topic conversation with your co-caster. Sure you dont want to abuse this but you do need to make use of this resources to make the cast more entertaining to watch. Especially after we have seen the same openings all night long. 5) Your voice inflection seems way off at times. Dont know how to make this a more useful observation but its just something I feel and might be completely wrong about.
Go go SMN, you already have some very rare positive points, if you can improve on those points i think you two could offer a much better SPL experience.
My biggest issue with the casters stems from the fact that they are casting Proleague, one of (if not the) best starcraft event ever. Nothing personal against either of the casters but I feel neither meets the caliber of caster for such a prestigious tournament. I do realize the tournament organizers deserve much of the blame for the English-casting mess but nevertheless my opinion is the same.
I'm certain they are giving it a great effort and want to improve, but this should not be the stage for such casters. This should be the stage for premier casters and those individuals are obtained by advanced planning from the league itself. Hopefully this is resolved in subsequent events.
I'm sorry to say, but I really don't see any hope for SNM. It's great to have a Korean translator, so by all means, keep him aside to do just that. He's simply not a likeable caster... not well spoken, not funny, not anything that would bring me back to the cast. I love SPL, but I honestly watch (and listen) to it despite the casting.
I personally don't want to turn off the stream because of SNM, although I do find his commentary annoying sometimes. I don't know if its because he has no knowledge of the game or just sounds inconfident, but there is an issue with that. It's a minor pet peeve, though, as I still prefer English play by play over nothing at all.
I would like to mention that a lot of people who mention that "they get their analysis incorrect" should be saying "they are predicting the game wrong". Analysis happens after the fact; and they often do a decent job of analyzing what has happened. Not perfect, not great, but they are definitely improving. However Whiplash and SNM currently aren't able to predict builds/outcomes/strategies very well. I think this is what most of these people are complaining about, but I think it is important that they word their criticism correctly. Predicting games and analyzing them are different. A lot of the "high masters players" criticizing them for being wrong in their predictions are being harsh, because even pros have a hard time exactly predicting what will happen a minute or two later. Even Tastosis, Wolfdor, Bitterdam, and other casters make wrong predictions every game. We should ask for improvement and criticize properly so they know what to develop. On this point, I do think that they should avoid predicting and focus on describing and analyzing. Predicting builds isn't of much use--to be honest it is just a game knowledge brag if anything--so I'd rather they focus on what is happening than what might. It'll reduce the chances of them getting something wrong, too.
Personally I think they are improving. They just need to work on some chemistry, as well as avoiding the things that their audience say they don't like. I also agree that the best caster combos typically have one person in charge of analysis and game knowledge and one person in charge of info/descriptions/entertainment/hype. It is an effective formula that they could try out.
On January 21 2013 11:59 Alryk wrote: This is definitely good, and I think it's something that they should definitely refer back to, hopefully assuming that this thread doesn't get closed.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can. I don't say that to be mean, but rather to be honest. And like I said, I can definitely tell that y'all are trying to improve. Part of the game sense that makes progamers like Grubby such good casters is that they play the game so much. You can't simply read up on it, watch streams, etc. to get an understanding of the game; you have to play. And while I don't know exactly what league y'all are etc, the more you play, the more you should come to understand exactly what's happening.
The reason that I brought that up is partially the first thing that I see that is flawed. A lot of the time, y'alls predictions or "what they should do" about a game is flawed, especially in the beginning of the game. If you don't understand enough about how to analyze the game, then study it in the background, but while you're in the game just have play by play. Think casters like Totalbiscuit or CatsPajamas in the past. They weren't the most analytical casters (by self admission, at least TB I remember him saying it once); but people love them because they have excellent play by play. Often times the best casting duos are composed of a play by play expert and an analytical expert (Tastosis, Apollo + Biscuit, Bitterdam), and people love them.
I sincerely hope that y'all are watching Tastosis (and others, but especially them) cast Code S. That will be the best place for y'all to expand on what you're learning in game, as well as how to deliver it. Y'all come off (to me) as trying to be analytical, and failing. That's the main reason that you get a lot of criticism imo. Talking about what you think a player is going to do, but being 100% wrong because you were trying to bluff confidence doesn't work. Just go with the play by play for now until you can talk about how builds interact. Next point: learn about other leagues
Learn about the other leagues. This will be pretty short because I only really remember one example, but it comes up in one of the ZvZ's where SNM (I think) talked about how nobody goes mutas in SPL, so it will be interesting to see what will happen or something along the lines of that (I think it was Stephano vs. somebody). Look into the GSL, like I said. Leenock and some others are really, really proficient at Muta ZvZ. Learn how those games play out, and talk about it. It will again help with your understanding of SPL and the games there. Next point: Supply isn't everything
This is one of the biggest issues, part of it coming from not being able to analyze the game properly. I can't name something specific, but one of the most annoying things that y'all have done (in my eyes) is calling the game based on supply. Looking at a zerg who's 40 supply up on Roach/Ling doesn't mean the game is over (unless its ZvZ). I wish I could think of a specific example, and I'll watch y'all cast tonight, and if I see anything, I'll update this post. Just remember that there are upgrades, production, economy, etc. and everything is a factor. If somebody is down 20 supply, but down 50 workers, they have a huge timing window to do some damage. Y'all have definitely made that mistake, where somebody has no workers and you say the game is over, and then have to backtrack when they leverage their army and win. I'll update with something specific if I see it tonight. Final point: Work on your pronunciation?
This is also going to be short, and I'll update it tonight, because it happens every night (SNM particularly). Work on your pronunciation. Casting is like an essay - try not to repeat phrases every 2 seconds. I don't remember exact phrases, but I know it's happened, and I'll post an example when I hear one.
Secondly - Try and think about how your words are going to flow as you talk. This is definitely improving from the beginning of the year, but keep working on it. Occasionally y'all start to say something and it just doesn't make sense.
I've been watching from the beginning, and occasionally I switch audio just to hear analysis from a masters player who streams himself casting. Y'all are improving for sure, and I'm glad to see it. You're definitely putting in the work; just keep it up. I don't hate your casting, it just needs improvement.
TL;DR for y'all: 1) Ladder more 2) Watch GSL 3) Watch GSL vods 4) Listen to other liked casters 5) Work on pronunciation
Thank y'all for casting SPL, and I'll still be tuning in tonight. It is certainly not a cast that is "so bad that I can't watch" so please keep improving for us and thank you!
Edit: Like others have said, I prefer whiplash to SNM.
I just want to reiterate what Alryk said. It's not only very well structured but nails the head on the coffin. These are great ways to improve ones casting. Everyone starts somewhere, you guys just got thrown into a much too large of a role as of right now but just keep improving.
I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Many of you guys say that these casters have improved and I tried unmuting my stream last night. Unfortunately I find that they're still underwhelming. I would like to give constructive feedback but there is nothing positive i can say about SNM's casting. As for whiplash, if he just tones down his puns a little bit I think that could go a long way.
On January 21 2013 13:16 lichter wrote: I would like to mention that a lot of people who mention that "they get their analysis incorrect" should be saying "they are predicting the game wrong". Analysis happens after the fact; and they often do a decent job of analyzing what has happened. Not perfect, not great, but they are definitely improving. However Whiplash and SNM currently aren't able to predict builds/outcomes/strategies very well. I think this is what most of these people are complaining about, but I think it is important that they word their criticism correctly. Predicting games and analyzing them are different. A lot of the "high masters players" criticizing them for being wrong in their predictions are being harsh, because even pros have a hard time exactly predicting what will happen a minute or two later. Even Tastosis, Wolfdor, Bitterdam, and other casters make wrong predictions every game. We should ask for improvement and criticize properly so they know what to develop. On this point, I do think that they should avoid predicting and focus on describing and analyzing. Predicting builds isn't of much use--to be honest it is just a game knowledge brag if anything--so I'd rather they focus on what is happening than what might. It'll reduce the chances of them getting something wrong, too.
Personally I think they are improving. They just need to work on some chemistry, as well as avoiding the things that their audience say they don't like. I also agree that the best caster combos typically have one person in charge of analysis and game knowledge and one person in charge of info/descriptions/entertainment/hype. It is an effective formula that they could try out.
You give analysis on things that just happened in a game, not what you think is going to happen. When (he) tries to go over what just happened, it's like he's referring to a whole different fight/game.
On January 21 2013 13:00 Paramo wrote: I really like Whiplash. He (to me) seems to have a decent amount of game knowledge and knows how to bring it up. He also has a likeable personality unlike SMN. SMN... man you gotta step it up:
1) dont cut off Whiplash, it makes you sound rude and make the cast awkward. 2) You use first person waaaaaay to much when explaining things. 3) You cut off your own arguments to say something insignificant like "...But now we see a zergling kill a marine!" 4) You seem reluctant to incorporate humor or have a off topic conversation with your co-caster. Sure you dont want to abuse this but you do need to make use of this resources to make the cast more entertaining to watch. Especially after we have seen the same openings all night long. 5) Your voice inflection seems way off at times. Dont know how to make this a more useful observation but its just something I feel and might be completely wrong about.
Go go SMN, you already have some very rare positive points, if you can improve on those points i think you two could offer a much better SPL experience.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
IEG hired their own casters (SNM and Whiplash) and own the English broadcasting rights. TL was covering until they got their own.
One thing is starting to get to me after watching quite a few of their games. The same phrases over and over. Specifically "and behind this..." and "on top of that". These phrases are said way too much. So much so that it takes away from the rest of the cast. I'm referring to SNM. Whiplash is definitely getting better.
On January 21 2013 11:59 Alryk wrote: This is definitely good, and I think it's something that they should definitely refer back to, hopefully assuming that this thread doesn't get closed.
From my perspective as a high masters player (protoss, but it doesn't matter:
The casting isn't very good, but it is definitely improving. @SNM and Whiplash, if you read this: I think one of the best things that y'all can do to improve is to ladder, if you play the game yourselves. Most masters players can deliver better analysis than y'all can. I don't say that to be mean, but rather to be honest. And like I said, I can definitely tell that y'all are trying to improve. Part of the game sense that makes progamers like Grubby such good casters is that they play the game so much. You can't simply read up on it, watch streams, etc. to get an understanding of the game; you have to play. And while I don't know exactly what league y'all are etc, the more you play, the more you should come to understand exactly what's happening.
The reason that I brought that up is partially the first thing that I see that is flawed. A lot of the time, y'alls predictions or "what they should do" about a game is flawed, especially in the beginning of the game. If you don't understand enough about how to analyze the game, then study it in the background, but while you're in the game just have play by play. Think casters like Totalbiscuit or CatsPajamas in the past. They weren't the most analytical casters (by self admission, at least TB I remember him saying it once); but people love them because they have excellent play by play. Often times the best casting duos are composed of a play by play expert and an analytical expert (Tastosis, Apollo + Biscuit, Bitterdam), and people love them.
I sincerely hope that y'all are watching Tastosis (and others, but especially them) cast Code S. That will be the best place for y'all to expand on what you're learning in game, as well as how to deliver it. Y'all come off (to me) as trying to be analytical, and failing. That's the main reason that you get a lot of criticism imo. Talking about what you think a player is going to do, but being 100% wrong because you were trying to bluff confidence doesn't work. Just go with the play by play for now until you can talk about how builds interact. Next point: learn about other leagues
Learn about the other leagues. This will be pretty short because I only really remember one example, but it comes up in one of the ZvZ's where SNM (I think) talked about how nobody goes mutas in SPL, so it will be interesting to see what will happen or something along the lines of that (I think it was Stephano vs. somebody). Look into the GSL, like I said. Leenock and some others are really, really proficient at Muta ZvZ. Learn how those games play out, and talk about it. It will again help with your understanding of SPL and the games there. Next point: Supply isn't everything
This is one of the biggest issues, part of it coming from not being able to analyze the game properly. I can't name something specific, but one of the most annoying things that y'all have done (in my eyes) is calling the game based on supply. Looking at a zerg who's 40 supply up on Roach/Ling doesn't mean the game is over (unless its ZvZ). I wish I could think of a specific example, and I'll watch y'all cast tonight, and if I see anything, I'll update this post. Just remember that there are upgrades, production, economy, etc. and everything is a factor. If somebody is down 20 supply, but down 50 workers, they have a huge timing window to do some damage. Y'all have definitely made that mistake, where somebody has no workers and you say the game is over, and then have to backtrack when they leverage their army and win. I'll update with something specific if I see it tonight. Final point: Work on your pronunciation?
This is also going to be short, and I'll update it tonight, because it happens every night (SNM particularly). Work on your pronunciation. Casting is like an essay - try not to repeat phrases every 2 seconds. I don't remember exact phrases, but I know it's happened, and I'll post an example when I hear one.
Secondly - Try and think about how your words are going to flow as you talk. This is definitely improving from the beginning of the year, but keep working on it. Occasionally y'all start to say something and it just doesn't make sense.
I've been watching from the beginning, and occasionally I switch audio just to hear analysis from a masters player who streams himself casting. Y'all are improving for sure, and I'm glad to see it. You're definitely putting in the work; just keep it up. I don't hate your casting, it just needs improvement.
TL;DR for y'all: 1) Ladder more 2) Watch GSL 3) Watch GSL vods 4) Listen to other liked casters 5) Work on pronunciation
Thank y'all for casting SPL, and I'll still be tuning in tonight. It is certainly not a cast that is "so bad that I can't watch" so please keep improving for us and thank you!
Edit: Like others have said, I prefer whiplash to SNM.
I just want to reiterate what Alryk said. It's not only very well structured but nails the head on the coffin. These are great ways to improve ones casting. Everyone starts somewhere, you guys just got thrown into a much too large of a role as of right now but just keep improving.
Why thank you :D
Another thing I'd like to say is: play on your strong points. SNM, you have something that literally no other caster (except MC) has; namely knowing exactly what the korean casters are saying. You can literally listen to them when you aren't speaking. ESPECIALLY in those after game replays where they go over what happened. Instead of you and whiplash trying to give your own analysis, talk about what those casters are saying. If anything, it will give you a springboard to work off of your own conversations.
When whiplash is talking, or whenever your attention ISN'T diverted to talking, focus on them. They could probably (I guess I can't understand them but probably) give you a lot of lessons literally in the middle of the cast. You could even cheat, listen to the analysis they give, and say the exact same thing, and nobody will know what a dirty little cheater you are
I think they're both bad, and assume the only reason people like Whiplash more is his more palatable accent, because they go tit-for-tat on cutting each other off, awkward pauses, and (mediocre) game knowledge.
Although SNM could use a megadose of CONFIDENCE. He clearly gets flustered when he knows he made a mistake, but it doesn't help that Whiplash more often than not makes it more awkward by being slightly hostile/trying to disassociate himself.
There hasn't been much improvement over the course of the season so far.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
OGN was planning on an English cast. Kespa swooped in and said "sorry, we sold the rights to this IEG outfit". IEG said "haha, suckers, only, uh, we're not ready yet. Nevermind on that whole english-cast thing for the first week or so. Also, BTW, we're apparently the same folks as spotv."
At that point EG & TL were all "hells naw, we busted our ass and did who knows how many illicit favors to Kespa execs to break into this league, and you're going to totally botch the opener for our legions of fans & potentially ruin this entire business venture? We'll cast this sucker ourselves."
Then EG & TL proceeded to do just that.
IEG, figuring it would actually do something with the rights it paid for yelled out "Hey english-speaking bitches, come work for us!"
And all the established english-speaking bitches were all "screw you, we have good, stable jobs. We're not gonna dis everyone we've worked with over the past year to move to cold-ass Korea for a few crumbs."
This made IEG sad, because doing stuff is hards. But then came SUPERNOVAMAN and he went up to IEG and said (in Korean) "I cans cast stuffs!" And IEG said "ok." Then SUPERNOVAMAN said "and I know this one dude." So IEG called the one dude and asked if he wanted to cast. And Whiplash said "sure."
This made IEG happy, 'cause now it was their time to shine. They took their Proleague video feed back from EG & TL, and said to SUPERNOVAMAN "go now, and hypnotize the barbarian hordes using their strange words."
And SUPERNOVAMAN did speak much English while casting Proleague, and much agony and anguish was felt by all.
Aside from other criticisms that others here have mentioned, I also feel that they are not really connected to the scene in general. I get the vibe that they were huge bw fans who jumped at the chance to work with the KESPA legends, and hence end up focusing too much on bw history references rather than sc2 ones. For example I doubt that they follow foreign tourneys at all as shown by that rather cringe-worthy Ohana mishap. This leads to them not sounding genuine enough for my liking.
I'm really enjoying the casts honestly. I don't really like whiplash, but its just a personal preference. Too bland for my taste.
SNM on the other hand, is fantastic, imo. You can tell he has a lot of passion, usually provides good analytical commentary, he's always upbeat, knows the BW scene very well and shares the info with the viewers, and on top of that knows korean so he can translate shit we'd otherwise miss. I think most of the SNM criticism is unwarranted, and the pros far outweigh the cons.
I get the impression Whiplash is the more "audiogenic" caster, while SNM is the guy who seems kind of random and bubbly. I haven't paid enough attention to PL to really nail down who's who. Probably because of commercial spam I end up just reloading the whole thing 20 minutes after a match ends.
But anyways, I feel like SNM is like me. Someone capable of understanding what's going on, but perhaps who feels more capable than he actually is. For example, when I listen to someone like Artosis who can explain things beautifully, I follow along quite well and find myself agreeing most of the time. It's like how the Voice of Saruman makes you feel good for agreeing. But when you're on your own, you realize you're just a slightly above average man of Rohan. You've got great blond hair and you've killed a lot of Orcs in battle, but you're not really sure about the bigger picture of events. Similarly, at best I'd probably suck at putting my explanation of what's going on into words and coherently presenting it to an audience.
SNM is a little better than I'd be, but that's just not good enough for the most prestigious league in the world besides GSL (and that's arguable). I believe people can improve at almost anything, but I also don't want to wait this entire season (i.e., all rounds) to remain as is, so I really hope that the casters put up or shut up. In the past I may have been more sympathetic, but a recent hire over me at work by someone who is relatively very bad has eroded my desire to see mediocrity rewarded. For something like PL, the casters really should be the best, not a work in progress.
SNM's voice is brutal, its like listening to someone drag their nails across a chalkboard. The fact that he doesn't really know his shit and they kinda argue/bicker during casts put a damper on PL for me.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
Kespa had told EGTL that the broadcasting rights were temporary. There were many problems introduced by casting from another country, and i'm sure kespa had high interests in finding someone who could translate korean, and eventually want to have their casters in the studio. I think EGTL just didn't realize how short term it would be and made a big deal out of it when announcing it. Seems like a case of the whole "lost in translation" thing
I think Whiplash has potential and can improve over time if he spends time researching players, maps and playstyles. He also calls many builds wrong over and over again though some part of that is actually the kespa guys going for strange builds. His voice quite pleasant to listen to and never really gets annoying. And if I feel like he is reading the game totally wrong I can ignore him just fine which is a good thing. Until he gets the knowledge he can do the play by play part. Overall he has a solid foundation on which he can improve.
SNM on the other hand... Even if he manages to get the proper knowledge of the game he still has one hell of an annoying voice. His inability to work with his co-caster and the poor sense for timings are barriers aswell. A fair amount of players are knowledgable enough to understand the builds of the players and only want something to fill the silence. SNM is neither someone who can analyze a game well enough to tell me something new and exciting, nor can he fill the silence in a pleasant way.
Their cast is littered with gems like: "Nice focus firing of the marines with his immortal" (happened due to the player not microing his immortal at al) "If he doesn't hold this push he will have problems coming back later in the game" And many many more.
There's just no symmetry between the two of them for one thing. They don't play off of each other as much as they either repeat or disregard completely what the other one says.
Neither of them are good at portraying or building excitement in each match. I've seen matches casted by them involving incredibly cool battles and engagements only to have next to no battle commentary associated with it. Compare this complete lack of ANYTHING to a battle being cast by Totalbiscuit or someone similar and you'll notice why the complete lack of play by play action calling takes away from the game.
Third problem, while they might have a decent understanding of the players in Proleague, their actual game knowledge or at least their ability to articulate it is well... underwhelming to put it nicely.
When you combine the fact that they bring neither analysis nor play by play to the game you begin to wonder what they are actually there for other than just offering up proleague statistics which could be better served by on screen prompts like the ones GSL use.
I'm an aspiring caster myself, I know how hard it can be sometimes and how much work is involved but I don't think I've heard even amateurs that make me cringe as badly as these two do. I honestly feel sorry for them when I'm listening to them because it just sounds to me as though they don't actually enjoy what they are doing.
They have alot of awkward moments. Alot of bad jokes. Lots of cringe worthy moments overall.
However, I really like how SNM can just offer on the fly translations from the korean casters and interviews. The analysis is decent and their knowledge about the players is good.
They're okay, but some of the things they say irk me, like the innovation bashing of last night. Not going to say they are unwatchable, its its nice that there is at least SOME english casting, but yeah they can work on their chemistry for starters.
Don't think they work Nothing against either of them individually, but the chemistry just isn't there.. They just contradict what the other person is saying way too often.. If a caster makes a mistake the other should play it off and support them. These guys just flat out say 'No, this is whats going on'. Kinda puts me off...
Again nothing against them individually.. I use to watch snm when he started out doing bw, and like others say I love the resource of having on the spot korean translation. Worth a bunch.
That being said, I'd like to see them stick with it a little longer though to see if they can find their proper roles in the cast.
Whiplash is awesome, but snm takes a year just to articulate what he just thought happened to the point it is no longer relevant. If he can better articulate his words, it would be better.
I think they should keep SNM for translations, but remove him ASAP as a caster. He argues with Whiplash and is super rude and contradicting it is frustrating to listen to. Give Whiplash a better coaster and use SNM for translations and we will be good.
Team liquid's older forum tend to have a very strong BW bias. If they were casting for any other tournament I doubt the casters would have even the little support they have now. I usually do not like bashing casters but it shocks me that they would have people defending them.
For what it's worth, I gave up on the casters and began to watch the Korean Broadcast exclusively even if I don't understand them. I suggest the same for those who cannot stand the current english casting.
On January 21 2013 14:21 jacksonlee wrote: For what it's worth, I gave up on the casters and began to watch the Korean Broadcast exclusively even if I don't understand them. I suggest the same for those who cannot stand the current english casting.
Indeed
It sucks because I like SNM and Whiplash as people but they just seriously have no synergy and do terrible at casting PL together.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
OGN was planning on an English cast. Kespa swooped in and said "sorry, we sold the rights to this IEG outfit". IEG said "haha, suckers, only, uh, we're not ready yet. Nevermind on that whole english-cast thing for the first week or so. Also, BTW, we're apparently the same folks as spotv."
At that point EG & TL were all "hells naw, we busted our ass and did who knows how many illicit favors to Kespa execs to break into this league, and you're going to totally botch the opener for our legions of fans & potentially ruin this entire business venture? We'll cast this sucker ourselves."
Then EG & TL proceeded to do just that.
IEG, figuring it would actually do something with the rights it paid for yelled out "Hey english-speaking bitches, come work for us!"
And all the established english-speaking bitches were all "screw you, we have good, stable jobs. We're not gonna dis everyone we've worked with over the past year to move to cold-ass Korea for a few crumbs."
This made IEG sad, because doing stuff is hards. But then came SUPERNOVAMAN and he went up to IEG and said (in Korean) "I cans cast stuffs!" And IEG said "ok." Then SUPERNOVAMAN said "and I know this one dude." So IEG called the one dude and asked if he wanted to cast. And Whiplash said "sure."
This made IEG happy, 'cause now it was their time to shine. They took their Proleague video feed back from EG & TL, and said to SUPERNOVAMAN "go now, and hypnotize the barbarian hordes using their strange words."
And SUPERNOVAMAN did speak much English while casting Proleague, and much agony and anguish was felt by all.
This is gold. Going from street/gang-style speech to ebonics to Bibleism.
On topic, I have realized how bad (in terms of predictions, voice quality of SNM, vapid filler-talk) the English cast is, but it doesn't bother me. I just come to it for the translations. Koreans saying, "STEPANOOO KOSI MI DAH," and other things I 98% don't understand are more entertaining to me.
I agree with all of Alryk's points, though, and if these were followed I may yet enjoy full comprehension of an SPL cast!
I hate to say it but some people just are not cut out to be casters. I am one of them. SNM is one of them. The difference between us is one of us took a job doing it and the other would never dream of it - or at least would do it fully accepting that I would be reviled by the audience.
hello, is SNM = SDM??? I tried searching for more info on SNM but nothing came up. I recall SDM (super daniel man?). Maybe they are the same person? I don't know, but in proleague, I never see their faces, so its all a mystery...
On January 21 2013 14:44 Lokian wrote: hello, is SNM = SDM??? I tried searching for more info on SNM but nothing came up. I recall SDM (super daniel man?). Maybe they are the same person? I don't know, but in proleague, I never see their faces, so its all a mystery...
supernovamanic
On January 21 2013 14:43 NoGasfOu wrote: whiplash is an annoying caster that has no knowledge of the game at all. Hope they get someone more experience soon.
that's hardly useable feedback, 'no knowledge' is a bit of an obsolete comment since he was a masters player and i think it's a bit of stretch to believe someone who knows nothing about the game can get to that level
They need more knowledge about the players, because kespa players are relatively new to people who just started to watch proleague. They need to focus more on both the game and themselves, they often repeat each others. They often wrongly criticized players actions which make the cast unbearable, they need a better understanding of the current meta game. SNM always give misleading/confused info about the game.
I see a lot of people upset with the casting, but what alternatives are there? I doubt they're paying these guys much and the situation just doesn't suggest they care to pay for quality casters. Does casting really matter at all for the PL? I don't think it does.
The issue is SC2 and especially PL is at a point where it's just a crowd of devoted fans that will find a way to tolerate the situation (whether it be watching it muted, the korean stream, or just stomaching the sub-par casting). I'm sure a lot of the people who watch PL don't need casters to be interested in or understand what is going on. Casuals aren't watching PL even though the live airing times aren't nearly as bad as the GSL, the subscription is dirt cheap, and they have free Korean broadcast VODs. I just don't think the general interest in the game is as strong and as a result, the importance of casters isn't the same as it was in the early days of SC2 when Husky, HD, and Day9 were really capable of pulling new people into the community.
As is, the casting is not good but it's also not repulsive enough to cost IEG anything. The English cast seems like an afterthought and rightfully so. The most we can hope for is that HotS causes a surge in SC2's popularity and a higher incentive for IEG and Kespa to try and ride that tide to higher investments into their foreign connection.
I don't see SNM improving anytime soon. The guy has been casting brood for sometime before this and he still isn't the best. Knowledgable of players maybe but being a caster is not for him. He just banters about things he wants to talk about like most current BW commentators
On January 21 2013 14:21 Takezou wrote: Team liquid's older forum tend to have a very strong BW bias. If they were casting for any other tournament I doubt the casters would have even the little support they have now. I usually do not like bashing casters but it shocks me that they would have people defending them.
Strangely enough, different people have different opinions. It shocks me that you think that every single person thinks, or at least should think, like you do. I put more value on the translation and background knowledge than you do, and am willing to allow them time to grow as caster, because there are very few casters who are great right away.
Huh, tough crowd. I think they're pretty good. They seem to get confused in the heat of battles about where the momentum is shifting, but...welcome to sports commentary. The insta-translation of the proceedings and the interviews with the Korean players is arguably the best we've seen of anything in SC2 yet.
The thing that pains me most when watching them is when literally all their banters and jokes fall flat. There's nothing more awkward to me than that.
A suggestion is to pre-plan them to a certain extent (like what Tastosis does).
I also don't know anything personal about them at all. I have problems separating one from the other. Maybe show a webcam or a portrait of the two during break time could be useful, like what Iron Squid 2 is doing.
Above all, try to find your niche. You have a caster who understands Korea. Use that more. Bring your talent into your cast more. Good luck!
I like them and they do a good job and try hard, But one of them really needs to improve his game knowledge. I can't remember which one it is but ya.....
When I hear wow those storms are awful(it was something like that where someone used a few storms on viking and literally murdered like 10+ vikings. I literally face palmed to myself. I know the other guy corrected it and thank god but when you say stuff like that when it was literally the best storms the other guy could hope for....ya
Just please improve game knowledge and try not to say that much stupid things otherwise great job
They both have improved since the beginning and will continue to do so. The only thing that stands out for me is that the game analysis is pretty awful, I feel like any high ranked masters player can analyze a game better. The good news is that this is something that they can both improve upon easily over time and with some effort.
On January 21 2013 15:09 iamho wrote: From what I've read and seen on these forums, the SCII community seems to hate just about every commentator. Except maybe day9.
Plenty of people dislike day 9 these days. But that's not the issue. I had zero issue with any single caster in SC2 until SNM.
On January 21 2013 14:43 NoGasfOu wrote: whiplash is an annoying caster that has no knowledge of the game at all. Hope they get someone more experience soon.
I agree neither of them are that great. Can they improve? Maybe. Are people willing to wait? Probably not.
On January 21 2013 15:09 iamho wrote: From what I've read and seen on these forums, the SCII community seems to hate just about every commentator. Except maybe day9.
Pretty sure like everyone likes Artosis. At least, when they aren't trolling.
On January 21 2013 15:09 iamho wrote: From what I've read and seen on these forums, the SCII community seems to hate just about every commentator. Except maybe day9.
And also anything that you have to pay for as well.
Anyways, ontopic, I'm not a big fan of them, and actually they are one of the few caster duo's that make me angry. Their analysis is completely off so often, and half the game I just wonder if the others are believing what they are saying, if they actually learned more about the game, were more enthusiastic, made less really nerdy jokes that aren't funny, prepared more it'd be great.
As far as I'm aware they are getting a very small salary, if any, so amazing casters cannot be expected.
They're ok but not the style that I prefer. I was spoiled by casts of TB, Apollo, Day[9], Tastosis, Khaldor, etc. I like it when casters try to paint a picture of the game, it keeps me entertained. I still watch PL though.
For me, the two biggest things that need improvement are:
1. They should think more carefully about what they are saying. Two examples:
(a) Game commentary (sorry, I can't remember the exact game): Yesterday, I heard them say (paraphrasing) "Oh player1's economy is failing, he's down to 150 supply". Then, not 10 seconds later, "Oh player2 has no money, he's going to lose". The whole time, player1 had 50 supply up on his opponent, and clearly had a better economy than his opponent.
(b) Colour commentary / humour: seeing two friends in the audience, whiplash says "oh yeah, proleague is not just for couples only", to which SNM replied "Oh, are you saying they are a couple!!!" This type of "oh no, they are the gayz humour" might be appropriate for 13-year-olds, but it's not appropriate in this venue. Sadly, this is the typical quality of their humour.
2. Teamwork. It's been mentioned by many already, and it's a big deal. SNM in particular is terrible. When your partner makes a joke, you should back him up and laugh at it, even if you have to force yourself. Don't make it obvious that you think he's not funny, or try and one-up your partner with a better joke. Don't fight your partner for the right to speak.
Whiplash is alright, though I noticed he kept making predictions, then justifying them, and then saying "oh yeah just I like I was saying, X happened". snm tends to make some weird observations that are just sort of wrong. Hope they can continue to improve though.
Wow munchmunch is pretty spot-on. Teamwork could definitely be a bit better, snm you don't need to be mean to whiplash :\
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
IEG hired their own casters (SNM and Whiplash) and own the English broadcasting rights. TL was covering until they got their own.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
OGN was planning on an English cast. Kespa swooped in and said "sorry, we sold the rights to this IEG outfit". IEG said "haha, suckers, only, uh, we're not ready yet. Nevermind on that whole english-cast thing for the first week or so. Also, BTW, we're apparently the same folks as spotv."
At that point EG & TL were all "hells naw, we busted our ass and did who knows how many illicit favors to Kespa execs to break into this league, and you're going to totally botch the opener for our legions of fans & potentially ruin this entire business venture? We'll cast this sucker ourselves."
Then EG & TL proceeded to do just that.
IEG, figuring it would actually do something with the rights it paid for yelled out "Hey english-speaking bitches, come work for us!"
And all the established english-speaking bitches were all "screw you, we have good, stable jobs. We're not gonna dis everyone we've worked with over the past year to move to cold-ass Korea for a few crumbs."
This made IEG sad, because doing stuff is hards. But then came SUPERNOVAMAN and he went up to IEG and said (in Korean) "I cans cast stuffs!" And IEG said "ok." Then SUPERNOVAMAN said "and I know this one dude." So IEG called the one dude and asked if he wanted to cast. And Whiplash said "sure."
This made IEG happy, 'cause now it was their time to shine. They took their Proleague video feed back from EG & TL, and said to SUPERNOVAMAN "go now, and hypnotize the barbarian hordes using their strange words."
And SUPERNOVAMAN did speak much English while casting Proleague, and much agony and anguish was felt by all.
On January 21 2013 13:21 WhiteSatin wrote: I actually asked this question before in 2 more topics I believe, but no one gave me an answer so I hope somebody can help me now.
I remember that when TL/EG announced they were gonna cover pro league they also announced TB, mr.bitter, TLO etc. as casters - then very soon it switched over to these guys. I was simply wondering why ? Can someone enlighten me please ?
Anyway my opinion is that they need to improve their game knowledge quite a bit as right now (especially for Terran) they call stuff wrong lots of times. Also that very 'fake' GG yelling at the end was kinda bothering me, I think the GG should be called with an honest spirit: if you were excited right before it happens then you can yell it, otherwise no need to go for this fake excitement. Also sometimes they get into "personal" talk of stuff we -the viewers- are not aware and that's not good either. Overall it's a good casting, I don't dislike it but I'm not a great fan either. I think they need lots of work to do before it becomes very nice. If I had to give a grade it'd be 6 out of 10.
Cheers
Kespa had told EGTL that the broadcasting rights were temporary. There were many problems introduced by casting from another country, and i'm sure kespa had high interests in finding someone who could translate korean, and eventually want to have their casters in the studio. I think EGTL just didn't realize how short term it would be and made a big deal out of it when announcing it. Seems like a case of the whole "lost in translation" thing
On January 21 2013 15:28 munchmunch wrote: For me, the two biggest things that need improvement are:
1. They should think more carefully about what they are saying. Two examples:
(a) Game commentary (sorry, I can't remember the exact game): Yesterday, I heard them say (paraphrasing) "Oh player1's economy is failing, he's down to 150 supply". Then, not 10 seconds later, "Oh player2 has no money, he's going to lose". The whole time, player1 had 50 supply up on his opponent, and clearly had a better economy than his opponent.
(b) Colour commentary / humour: seeing two friends in the audience, whiplash says "oh yeah, proleague is not just for couples only", to which SNM replied "Oh, are you saying they are a couple!!!" This type of "oh no, they are the gayz humour" might be appropriate for 13-year-olds, but it's not appropriate in this venue. Sadly, this is the typical quality of their humour.
2. Teamwork. It's been mentioned by many already, and it's a big deal. SNM in particular is terrible. When your partner makes a joke, you should back him up and laugh at it, even if you have to force yourself. Don't make it obvious that you think he's not funny, or try and one-up your partner with a better joke. Don't fight your partner for the right to speak.
Pretty much dead on in the nicest way possible
also this
On January 21 2013 15:23 synaptik wrote: "jd with that huge infestor advantage"
On January 21 2013 15:09 iamho wrote: From what I've read and seen on these forums, the SCII community seems to hate just about every commentator. Except maybe day9.
There's always going to be people who don't like particular styles and certain styles that fit with certain people (I still personally don't see how people can enjoy DJWheat's casting myself /shrug) but this is a little different.
The big way you know there's a difference in the kind of hate these guys are receiving is in how people defend them. I mean just read this thread for some examples. "They aren't that bad," "I think they could be good if they improve a bit" "I like one but not the other," "they're alright I guess but not the best."
There's not really a part of the community screaming out, OMG I LOVE THESE GUYS like there is with most of the other casters even ones with a large hater base.
Guys, guys. Just watch it on mute. Edit: Seriously though, I appreciate what Whiplash and SNM are doing, but they're not great analytically and just don't seem to have much chemistry either. Hope they can work hard and improve!
TBH at first I didn't mind them and I didn't get all the hate. But as I watched for PL, I couldn't help but notice the things people complained about. Both of them are what, mid master? It kinda shows as they make very general and vague statements and we don't really get any of the good analysis you can expect from Artosis, Day9, Apollo and some other casters. They seem to have some grasp on Protoss but are pretty clueless when it comes to Z/T. Neither of them have a particularly attractive voice or the ability to hype up situations like Total Biscuit. It's kinda like MoleTrap, I don't wanna hate these guys too much because they obviously got passion, but their voices arent that great and their game knowledge is pretty mediocre... so what exactly do they bring to the table as casters?
Yeah, Whiplash is good. It's SNM that makes me mute the stream. I can't stand people talking through their nose and lisps on top of that. He sounds exactly like that guy on youtube that gets to open his Christmas presents early and gets all excited because he gets Luke's and Vader's lightsabers. I mean, if you sound like that, is pursuing a career based on you talking really a good idea?
I think the problem mostly for me is their lack of knowledge in the game. Watching Argo vs Jaedong now, a PvZ on Cloud Kingdom and they dont seem aware that the Slow-Ling Cheese is being used due to Zergs Overlord placement over Protoss Natural. When they speak of the build, they speak of it as a common straight up attack on the natural. Not even considering the fact that the lings are built because the Zergs sees instantly if Protoss leaves with the Zealot on the wall of. I would be fine with this, but this is happening almost EVERY game. They comment without having a deeper understanding of the game.
Also, "I would like to see this", "I would like to see this.." etc. is in my opinion NOT a commentators job to point out all the time. I am interested in why players are doing stuff and what they are doing. Not what the commentators would like them to do.
This with a lot more combimed makes them quite a bad caster duo in my opinion compared to the rest of the scene.
On January 21 2013 15:37 zoid wrote: Yeah, Whiplash is good. It's SNM that makes me mute the stream. I can't stand people talking through their nose and lisps on top of that. He sounds exactly like that guy on youtube that gets to open his Christmas presents early and gets all excited because he gets Luke's and Vader's lightsabers. I mean, if you sound like that, is pursuing a career based on you talking really a good idea?
I think they've gotten a lot better. Whiplash adds plenty of relevant commentary while SNM seems to be improving as well (either that or I've just gotten used to his voice). I'd still prefer K[9] or Tastosis to cast ofc, but as far as 'new' casters go these guys are great.
On January 21 2013 15:58 Pursuit_ wrote: I think they've gotten a lot better. Whiplash adds plenty of relevant commentary while SNM seems to be improving as well (either that or I've just gotten used to his voice). I'd still prefer K[9] or Tastosis to cast ofc, but as far as 'new' casters go these guys are great.
while the cast has gotten a bit more fluent, there is still no real chemistry between them and i still dont get any real insight into the game from them besides the obvious. i hope they keep improving but im actually less optimistic about it getting actually good than than i was in the beginning
On January 21 2013 14:21 Takezou wrote: Team liquid's older forum tend to have a very strong BW bias. If they were casting for any other tournament I doubt the casters would have even the little support they have now. I usually do not like bashing casters but it shocks me that they would have people defending them.
Strangely enough, different people have different opinions. It shocks me that you think that every single person thinks, or at least should think, like you do. I put more value on the translation and background knowledge than you do, and am willing to allow them time to grow as caster, because there are very few casters who are great right away.
There isn't that much translating and their background knowledge is very obviously KESPA biased. Most casters have something going for them. These guys really don't.
On January 21 2013 13:34 Pokebunny wrote: Whiplash is a good caster who improves a lot and def has great potential. SNM is okay.. improving but still I don't see a future in casting
I like them both and want them to succeed. But sometimes it feels like Whiplash is carrying the pace of the cast when SNM stumbles over what feels like a language barrier issue. I think SNM could really use some voice-acting lessons. They're definitely improving though. I'd be really happy to hear that they're doing more to work better together is all.
People don't appreciate enough that these guys can deal with the Korean language very well, which is extremely important for casting Proleague, and helps a lot in many situations. It's much less of a problem in the GSL because it is more oriented towards foreigners and they have dedicated translators and other Korean crew members who speak some English.
We are actually very lucky to have these two casters for Proleague.
On January 21 2013 16:06 figq wrote: People don't appreciate enough that these guys can deal with the Korean language very well, which is extremely important for casting Proleague, and helps a lot in many situations. It's much less of a problem in the GSL because it is more oriented towards foreigners and they have dedicated translators and other Korean crew members who speak some English.
We are actually very lucky to have these two casters for Proleague.
I don't see how this helps their actual cast? We may not have any other options but that still does not make them good.
Needs improvement. I can see the duo actually being good (Whiplash is already very decent) eventually, but there are things they (both) need to work on.
On January 21 2013 16:06 figq wrote: People don't appreciate enough that these guys can deal with the Korean language very well, which is extremely important for casting Proleague, and helps a lot in many situations. It's much less of a problem in the GSL because it is more oriented towards foreigners and they have dedicated translators and other Korean crew members who speak some English.
We are actually very lucky to have these two casters for Proleague.
I don't see how this helps their actual cast? We may not have any other options but that still does not make them good.
Find better casters who speak well Korean and English. If there aren't any, then you got the best you can get.
P.S. One more thing: previous experience and interest in Proleague and all the Kespa teams and players. Helps a ton.
I think they have improved a lot individually, but their chemistry is so-so. they need to coordinate better and pick a casting style that fits them both. right now, it sounds like they're just taking turns commentating whos doing what
On January 21 2013 12:16 eecs4ever wrote: whiplash is Okay, but i hate how SNM often likes to contradict what whiplash is saying even though whiplash may be right. Its as if they are not on the same team....
we need 2 casters who are casting together... not against each other please.
Yeah, if SNM and Whiplash can work as a team together, I think they'll be even better than they are now. On one State of the Game though, Artosis mentioned a nice way to segue into what you are thinking of what the other guy is thinking is stuff like:
"We see (terran player) is going 1Rax into 3CC, do you think he underestimates the aggressive of his opponent? (pause for the other caster" "[reason], [why], but, if his opponent sees the Orbitals, this could turn into a very aggressive game"
So in the end, you subtly imply you think differently, but do not outright say no and crap on your casting partner.
Yargh, even though I accidentally voted dislike, I really enjoy SPL when I have time to tune into you guys!
Whiplash is ok, but he tends to make bad predictions/judgements in the game. I wouldn't mind seeing him more as he'll improve with time. SNM brings with him on the fly translation from korean to english, but I don't really see much utilisation from that particular ability in the cast. I feel like he really needs to work on his articulation as well.
Whiplash is definitely better than SNM, but SNM is necessary because they do not have control over an observer in game. SNM constantly talks over Whiplash and talks down to him too much. The ONLY thing SNM brings to the table to translation. I don't think that Whiplash is that good, but he has alot of room to improve and can eventually be a decent caster. Too bad this is the best we will probably get until we get english casters on location.
I'm going to eat a little crow here. I've been VERY critical of SNM in this thread. But it caused me to watch Hero vs Cure on the English stream today, just to update my criticism.
Lo and behold, SNM seemed to be working really hard on his pronunciation, consciously clipping his words to try & make them come out crisper & clearer. I'm not going to go so far as to say I like him as a caster. But if SNM reads this thread - I acknowledge clear improvement & as (for me) your pronunciation is your biggest weakness, you are are the right track.
Can somebody post a link to the Korean stream please?
On topic: SNM's pronounciation is what bothers me most. Whiplash's speech is pleasure to listen. In my opinion, Whiplash solo commentating would be much better.
Nice thread . I only watch the vods from twitch but here's my opinion.
I think Whiplash is decent as one can feel he has at least some knowledge of the game and doesn't state things when he's unsure. The only thing he is lacking imo is the energy to make it lively when a fight occurs. I have barely ever heard him commentate a fight.
I think it is partially due to SNM's presence. I don't know this guy personnally but I strongly feel, through his casts, that he is trying (too ?) hard to justify his presence. Maybe it is in response to the community throwing so much at him in the beginning, idk. I can hear his stammering has improved, but he himself hasn't. He tries to predict who's gonna win a fight way before it is even possible to say it. This huge default ends up in really really long and horribly annoying sentences like, for example (see JD vs. Soulkey on Neo Caldeum from 2 days ago) :
"It seems like JD has more roaches however Soulkey has a better concave however it looks like JD's fungal will make the difference, however Soulkey has an advantage in upgrades however JD's reinforcements come faster"
or something along those lines..... Ten thousand "however" later I was relieved the fight was over.
So if SNM is watching this thread, please stop trying so hard to do something that you're obviously not meant for. I don't necessarily mean the whole casting thing, I mean the casting a fight thing. I think most people would appreciate by far a fight where the commentators may not be super lively but at least they're not annoying. Like one the guys above said, go back to the basics, describe what's happening, talk about what you know for a fact and for everyone's peace stop trying to analyse stuff that you obviously have little understanding of.
To Whiplash now, I want to say that he's actually nice to listen to. His voice reminds me a bit of Husky's, and I feel this guy has a huge potential to becoming a nice caster. But atm SNM is taking way too much space for Whiplash to be able to reveal himself completely. I think it's too bad. I feel Whiplash could cast very nicely with someone like MrBitter for example, or at least I would like to see that.
EDIT : I do realise that the guys are not IN the game and can't give informations aside what the observer shows them. I think that must add quite a lot to their discomfort and I am clearly willing to give them credit and time to improve. I do feel, however, that SNM has sooooooooo much road ahead of him, both on the pronunciation and the analysis, that he could as well just drop it. Sorry.
Whiplash is decent. He has a very nice speaking voice and knows a decent amount of meta / game knowledge. II think he'll improve to be a solid caster over time. SNM is the problem. He has a very poor casting voice (the lisp) and he doesn't analyze things correctly at all (not going to spell out everything he got wrong because that would take me a while). The small talk between him and Whiplash is cringe worthy at times because SNM seems a bit thick headed to some of Whiplashes comments / jokes.
Whiplash: 5/10 - Average caster but I can stand him as long as hes improving. SNM: 1/10 - Shouldn't be a caster and I don't see hope for him. Hes just annoying to hear speak.
I don't really have a strong opinion regarding casters usually, but one of these two guys has an extremely annoying voice. It kinda sounds like he has some kind of speech impediment. Now if that's true I feel sorry for the guy and I'm not here to bash him, but I would say it's a poor career choice to become a caster when you have a voice like that I know he cannot do much about it but then just don't be a caster. I'm not tall, I don't try to become a basketball pro.
I'm not very into caster bashing, but they happened to call players names several times. That's end of the story for me. Not to mention that nine times out of ten where they said that the player was playing bad, without any valid circumstantial argumentation, the player actually ended up winning, eg: Calling Jaehoon Failhoon two minutes before he closed up the game.
Its not that bad as people make it out ot be. I have no problem watching it, the commentary is pretty solid. SMNs voice is kinda wirred, but its not like unwatchable.
Only thing I'm still not happy with currently is the names. So many times either switching the player's names, or calling one player by another player's name.
At first, I pretty much didn't like them very much. But, after a while, I think they pretty much grew on me and I started to like them a lot better. Pretty much, they roasted my old opinion of them and now that is toast. Pretty much my only criticism of them is pretty much to avoid pretty much reusing the same filler words pretty much. Pretty much too many pretty much extra roasted pretty much words completely pretty much too toast I pretty roast totally pretty sure much toast.
No, but seriously, if you guys are reading this, I want you to know that I think you're improving and you'll be fine if you just speak carefully and avoid the filler words. Nothing says "novice caster" like falling into the same phrases over and over. Other than that, I really have nothing to gripe about.
On January 21 2013 17:20 laegoose wrote: Can somebody post a link to the Korean stream please?
On topic: SNM's pronounciation is what bothers me most. Whiplash's speech is pleasure to listen. In my opinion, Whiplash solo commentating would be much better.
Team Liquid is not allowed to post the link to the Korean stream anymore on OGN's orders apparently.
I like how nmetasch said people with negative opinions tend to be more vocal than those with positive opinions. So Whiplash & SNM, keep it up! I may not love the commentating/casting yet (and I mean, yet), but I truly believe I will in the near future! Cheers.
I like Whiplash. He's plenty good enough to be there, my only nitpick would be that he needs to work on his charisma a bit...some of his jokes seem really forced, and he can be quite robotic at times.
SNM's biggest weakness is similar; he's just too awkward. He will frequently not understand things that Whiplash says, not understand inflection in English words, and just in general does not seem to be able to have a natural flow in English conversation. I feel that if he were replaced with a notably entertaining color commentator such as TB or Doa, nobody would complain about Whiplash anymore, but the underlying problem is that the two of them together just have zero chemistry.
1) Too many repeated, filler words. 2) Please don't call fights based on supply etc. Ex. being HerO vs Cure: when he was 20 supply down but Cure was still stuck on his half of the map, you were giving cure a huge advantage, when I believe HerO had a better economy at the time and better upgrades. His composition was also better (Cure didn't have enough vikings) 3) Y'all need to work together. PLEASE don't clash. Play off of each other; don't fight each other. 4) Keep working on your play by plays SNM. You're contradicting and going back on what you say too often. Slow down, and think about what you're saying.
On January 21 2013 17:47 GunSec wrote: well to the people who are complaining, there is a reason they are casting and you are not lol!
Nah. Nathanias is a mid (high?) masters terran who does a solo cast on almost every PL cast (he's sleeping for stars vs stx actually) and does a better job by himself than the two of them do together. It's basically an issue of chemistry. The other problems could EASILY be hidden if SNM can relax a bit, and learn to work with whiplash a bit more.
Unless you wanted to say that the reason was that they were in with kespa, which I certainly am not. Nathanias does a pretty good job though; carries like 2-400 people in his twitch stream, and apparently 800+ on raid call (no audio delay) + Show Spoiler +
Watched their first casts - dind't liked them at all. Switched to korean stream for a while. Last week checked them again. I think they are a little better now, but far from being good, very very far. So for now, I'll be watching korean stream and there's also free VODs on korean language as well so I don't really care.
On January 21 2013 17:47 GunSec wrote: well to the people who are complaining, there is a reason they are casting and you are not lol!
Are u smoking ? What the reason ? They play SC better than us then should add a lot of people who are better than them. And We are the audience so we have the right to complain to help SPL improve.
They should hang out a lot more while not working and work on their chemistry. A ton of the smaller mistakes would be excused if the conversation was more free-flowing than it is not. A lot of the time, one person will joke and the other person won't get it, or one person will correct another person and then an awkward silence ensues.
On January 21 2013 17:47 GunSec wrote: well to the people who are complaining, there is a reason they are casting and you are not lol!
Are u smoking ? What the reason ? They play SC better than us then should add a lot of people who are better than them. And We are the audience so we have the right to complain to help SPL improve.
There's not actually that much people better then Whiplash in NA, seeing he was a GM on NA for a long time
Anyway, from reading all this I can actually just see two things: -they need to improve chemistry A LOT -SNM sometimes needs to think about what he is saying ^^ -SNM shoudl let the analysis be done by Whiplash -play by play should be done by SNM, which he also needs to work on
(And also that on TL there is a lot of people, who don't really understand anything, but someone told them the casters don't understand the game, so they are repeating it just for the sake of it!) Like seriously, do you really think they are like plat or what? SNM is masters and Whiplash, as said before, was GM on NA...
I think the Pro league english cast could use alot of help. And the problem isn't really the casters too much.
1: Beat whoever is managing your comercials. They begin immediately after a match, when the casters are still talking. they are cramed into every non-game second, cutting off the introductions and the recaps. I missed half of what the casters were talking about because of twitch comcercials. Get your production crew in line to not cover up content to make a fast buck. Trust me, if it continues, I will stop watching proleague, and I am fairly sure I'm not alone.
2: Casters need to have more professionalism. The proleague is broadcast on TV in korea, and then we americans get hold of it and make stupid jokes out of it. This should be Esport's chance to show the tv media that we aren't the whiney teenager in the corner... and we are missing it. I'm not saying that the casters need to be hyper disciplined, just that there needs to be alot less of time wasting jokes or personal stories and whatnot.
3: Rotate casters. While most of these posts are attacking the two casters who've apeared most often, I do not mean to here. There is a stagnation to the casts, where casters aren't sure of what to say, so they fill that time with pointless/worthless crap. Rotating just one of those casters would provide a new energy and insite, meaning even the filler time will have some worth. I understand that the koreans control the video feed, but we do control the audio, so we should make it the best we can. Right now I wouldn't be surprised to find out the proleague english cast is being done in an appartment somewhere with the blinds closed and tons of take out boxes.
4: Fully remove the korean comentators. This is incredibly annoying. Why does anyone feel the need to have 2 different languages, 4 (or 5?) people total trying to cast the same game, at the same time, on the same stream? Yeah, the korean voices are a little lower, but they are still there, and if I understood korean I could probably just listen to them cast. I know the first few games, the incoming stream sound was muted so we lost game sounds and everything. But I remember a few games after it was fixed so that we have game sounds without the korean crap. Somehow we've gotten the korean casters back in the picture.... Fix it.
5: Do something useful with the time between games, or the time between series. Yes, I know that EG is partly running the english stream, and they are vampires for money, but come the hell on.... Is it nessesary to have music and comercials playing continuously for the 15-30 minutes between series? Couldn't we do something useful with this time.... Like have segements of best game moments, worst game moments, analyze games, or just basic unit control?
6: Pie. Since I'm asking for everything, I'd like some pie too.
Thanks for reading. Again, no offence meant to the two casters now. (honestly, never heard of them before i watched pro league) There just needs to be a little more production value... which shouldn't take any more than finding a few graphic artist volunteers and a A/V tech to manhandle xsplit.
Whichever one of them talks with a lisp makes me want to not watch at all (or without audio). Sorry, but we're tuning in to watch the games and HEAR you cast! Your voice NEEDS to be pleasant, otherwise it's really going to be tough to get people to keep coming back.
From what I've heard so far the casting seems to be decent and the synergy alright as well. But I find neither voice pleasant nor is the cast in general the tip-top quality I'd assume delivered for such a prestigious league.
Anyway, I'd probably scrap the lisp guy and get a new play-by-play caster (see, I'm not even sure what role he's supposed to fill? That's how little he does for me ...). I'm sure he's a tremendously nice guy, but I'd look for another caster.
I just got out of bed to type this... whiplash just said "after this cast, lets go get korean bbq" and you reply with "no.
Ok you're paying"
Come on man. This is the kind of light banter that you need to be able to work with to create chemistry. Even if you don't actually want food, don't create an argument where you don't need one.
They are way better than other casters who are more famous and more well liked, but they shouldn't be casting something as prestigious as PL. Although I hope to see these guys succeed, I don't want them to continue with PL.
I think the bigger issue is not the caster themselves, but how the format is not working for a foreign audience. Kespa should use the Tastosis formula at GOMTV, where they have their own desk, we can see them talking after/before games, building up storylines, etc.
On January 21 2013 18:39 Godwrath wrote: I think the bigger issue is not the caster themselves, but how the format is not working for a foreign audience. Kespa should use the Tastosis formula at GOMTV, where they have their own desk, we can see them talking after/before games, building up storylines, etc.
I think that is an issue, but not the bigger issue. A few people are concerned about the intermissions, and also about the Korean caster background noise, but those are things that will automatically get fixed over time as PL gets themselves situated more comfortably. The issue that needs to be brought up is the casters' ability to cast, which is why that is the bigger issue.
On January 21 2013 18:39 Godwrath wrote: I think the bigger issue is not the caster themselves, but how the format is not working for a foreign audience. Kespa should use the Tastosis formula at GOMTV, where they have their own desk, we can see them talking after/before games, building up storylines, etc.
I think that is an issue, but not the bigger issue. A few people are concerned about the intermissions, and also about the Korean caster background noise, but those are things that will automatically get fixed over time as PL gets themselves situated more comfortably. The issue that needs to be brought up is the casters' ability to cast, which is why that is the bigger issue.
To be fair, not many casters around would know how to properly cast those games on Kespa maps, specially if they don't have access to an observer for their own.
Honestly what is missing is the.. excitement. When a really really intense battle is happening, they sometimes don't say anything and it just makes it awkward sort of. If you listen to the Korean casters, you hear them go crazy. I'd love to see some more excitement. And yeah, I have to agree with the majority here. Whiplash is honestly doing a great job and I can really hear the improvement as each week goes by.. But Idk. SNM is still a bit behind.
I don't have anything against them. They do seem new, but so far they haven't said or done anything to ruin games for me. Granted i don't watch it that often, but from what i've saw i like those guys. Feel they can only get better as time goes on.
Personally, SNM is the least enjoyable caster since Husky.
I've come to appreciate basically every caster out there; I love Wolf and Khaldor, TB and Day9, Apollo and Kaelaris, obviously Tastosis, Bitter and Rotter, DoA, Moletrap (RIP) even Kellymilkies: they were all much, much more enjoyable than SNM.
His style is at the same time uninformed and smug and literally his entire contribution is reading stats he wrote beforehand.
He does seem well prepared, props for that, but that's basically the only positive thing I can say about his cast.
On January 21 2013 17:47 GunSec wrote: well to the people who are complaining, there is a reason they are casting and you are not lol!
Are u smoking ? What the reason ? They play SC better than us then should add a lot of people who are better than them. And We are the audience so we have the right to complain to help SPL improve.
(And also that on TL there is a lot of people, who don't really understand anything, but someone told them the casters don't understand the game, so they are repeating it just for the sake of it!) Like seriously, do you really think they are like plat or what? SNM is masters and Whiplash, as said before, was GM on NA...
I'm masters and I don't know anything about Starcraft. At least, not enough to cast Proleague without being ridiculed. Honestly, the league you're in does not especially correspond to your knowledge of the game, only how well you play it. And for that matter, only how well you play with one of the three races in it.
First of all terrible poll. It needs improvement and I dislike it? I don't see the point of separating them.
Whiplash isn't too bad, but SNM needs training or something. I do see improvement from Round 1, but their combo still needs work in terms of synergy. Doesn't exactly feel like a dual cast, sort like when Moletrap was rotated among a bunch of casters in Code A. I have nothing against Moletrap, but being with an array of different casters made it hard for them to figure out their respective niche within the dual cast.
personaly i dislike them a lot, they take away the fun of every match.. at least for me. i know its not helpful, but i dont even know where to start.. Proleague is the best of sc2 for me, so its really disapointing to have these two cast this. would love to have apollo cast this, or some other well known and tested casters. i subscribed but turn of the volume most of the time,..
maybe these two are not that bad, but they derinately dont deserve to cast that high lvl of games yet. hopefully they get theor thing going and improve a lot so pl casts are wirth listen to.
non the less i wish them the best and am looking forward to their improvement in the next couple of months
On January 21 2013 18:18 Raven_zero300 wrote: I think the Pro league english cast could use alot of help. And the problem isn't really the casters too much.
1: Beat whoever is managing your comercials. They begin immediately after a match, when the casters are still talking. they are cramed into every non-game second, cutting off the introductions and the recaps. I missed half of what the casters were talking about because of twitch comcercials. Get your production crew in line to not cover up content to make a fast buck. Trust me, if it continues, I will stop watching proleague, and I am fairly sure I'm not alone.
3: Rotate casters. While most of these posts are attacking the two casters who've apeared most often, I do not mean to here. There is a stagnation to the casts, where casters aren't sure of what to say, so they fill that time with pointless/worthless crap. Rotating just one of those casters would provide a new energy and insite, meaning even the filler time will have some worth. I understand that the koreans control the video feed, but we do control the audio, so we should make it the best we can. Right now I wouldn't be surprised to find out the proleague english cast is being done in an appartment somewhere with the blinds closed and tons of take out boxes.
4: Fully remove the korean comentators. This is incredibly annoying. Why does anyone feel the need to have 2 different languages, 4 (or 5?) people total trying to cast the same game, at the same time, on the same stream? Yeah, the korean voices are a little lower, but they are still there, and if I understood korean I could probably just listen to them cast. I know the first few games, the incoming stream sound was muted so we lost game sounds and everything. But I remember a few games after it was fixed so that we have game sounds without the korean crap. Somehow we've gotten the korean casters back in the picture.... Fix it.
5: Do something useful with the time between games, or the time between series. Yes, I know that EG is partly running the english stream, and they are vampires for money, but come the hell on.... Is it nessesary to have music and comercials playing continuously for the 15-30 minutes between series? Couldn't we do something useful with this time.... Like have segements of best game moments, worst game moments, analyze games, or just basic unit control?
6: Pie. Since I'm asking for everything, I'd like some pie too.
These are some really good suggestions.
In ANY other tournament cast (IPL, DH, MLG, IEM, GSL, whatever) I can tab out and play another game or work on something else in between the action and still listen for the next game or a cool part in the game to tab back in. I'll hear some adds but its not a big deal. But when I have to listen to the same 1-3 adds repeatedly for 20 minutes, every 20-30 minutes, I cannot stand it and just turn off the stream (usually) or mute it and maybe tune back in sometime later to watch a game.
Also, for the casters, I did indeed tune in today and SNM is improved. I still dislike him and feel he adds nothing worthwhile to the cast except for being able to understand Korean, but now he at least doesn't completely ruin the casts for me anymore.
I'm actually really surprised how many complain about SNM's accent... it sounds totally fine to me, I've never had a single problem understanding him. He might have a slight lisp, but it's really not that bad. He speaks better english than a ton of people I know (especially all my math teachers... UGH)
On January 21 2013 18:39 Godwrath wrote: I think the bigger issue is not the caster themselves, but how the format is not working for a foreign audience. Kespa should use the Tastosis formula at GOMTV, where they have their own desk, we can see them talking after/before games, building up storylines, etc.
I think that is an issue, but not the bigger issue. A few people are concerned about the intermissions, and also about the Korean caster background noise, but those are things that will automatically get fixed over time as PL gets themselves situated more comfortably. The issue that needs to be brought up is the casters' ability to cast, which is why that is the bigger issue.
To be fair, not many casters around would know how to properly cast those games on Kespa maps, specially if they don't have access to an observer for their own.
To be honest, this is less than a weeks' worth of research done for your full time job. It's not hard.... Ofc most casters can't do that prior to researching them. These 2 casters wouldn't have been able to do with before researching them either. That doesn't make them better casters, that makes them paid PL casters. Pretty general and easy requirements if that's all you're looking for...
On January 21 2013 19:18 Visage814 wrote: I'm actually really surprised how many complain about SNM's accent... it sounds totally fine to me, I've never had a single problem understanding him. He might have a slight lisp, but it's really not that bad. He speaks better english than a ton of people I know (especially all my math teachers... UGH)
Yeah actually, I was thinking about it too. Mainly because there are few very praised casters, whose accent is much worse - Khaldor being the prime example, and mostly all the players that are casting like Grubby, TLO or Tod to name a few. (Don't get me wrong, I love all those and I don't really mind accents, it just seems weird to me that someone complaine about SNM accent which is nearly non-existent).
I don't care about accents or chemistry as much as just wanting more analysis. They both feel like play-by-play casters and two play-by-play casters is always a poor combination IMO. Analysis is good. Please do it more!
I no longer watch SPL because of SNM, and if I do its the korean stream/VODs. Whiplash is "OK", but not very knowledgable. If you are reading this and you want to improve, then SNM in particular, you need to work on your english language, pronunciation and game knowledge. Most of what you say is either wrong, needless filler or contradicting whiplash.
So many plain out wrong calls. And so few enthusiasm. I expect 2 things from a commentator, analyzing with great accuracy what's going on and bringing a certain degree of excitement. I've no business in someone telling me with a straight voice what I can already see on my screen.
It's true they have come a long way since the beginning, but their casting is still subpar and will remain so for quite a while. I do not believe proleague is the proper place to learn casting. Little game knowledge, not a very solid interaction between the two, a lot of gibberish, poor overall production quality overall.
they just need improvement + need more emotion when they speak with a huge engagement. that's what makes korean audio so good even if i don't understand a word.
SNM needs some to do some serious, serious work on his speech. The lisp, the stutters, the inability to put together a smooth sentence, it's all incredibly jarring and annoying, so much so that I can't listen to it. Your job is to talk. You need to be good at talking. You aren't good at talking. Fix this.
Whiplash is a lot better at talking, but definitely needs to work on interpreting better what he's seeing.
And there's also no chemistry between the casters. Neither seems to understand the humor of the other at all, especially SNM, and it results in a lot of awkward exchanges.
On January 21 2013 20:12 SiroKO wrote: So many plain out wrong calls. And so few enthusiasm. I expect 2 things from a commentator, analyzing with great accuracy what's going on and bringing a certain degree of excitement. I've no business in someone telling me with a straight voice what I can already see on my screen.
I think they would be better off not trying to predict anything, for this reason. It would be better if they just stick to describing the action as it happens. If they act excited by what is happening it will be a lot better than throwing out 3-4 wrong predictions in the first 5-8 minutes of every game.
Whiplash is pretty good but SNM lacks basic knowledge about the game needed to cast. The number of times he's completely misread openings/builds while trying to cover it up with ~hilarious~ jokes has gotten to the point where it beggars belief.
On January 21 2013 20:12 SiroKO wrote: So many plain out wrong calls. And so few enthusiasm. I expect 2 things from a commentator, analyzing with great accuracy what's going on and bringing a certain degree of excitement. I've no business in someone telling me with a straight voice what I can already see on my screen.
I think they would be better off not trying to predict anything, for this reason. It would be better if they just stick to describing the action as it happens. If they act excited by what is happening it will be a lot better than throwing out 3-4 wrong predictions in the first 5-8 minutes of every game.
I agree with you. Bring excitement and stop trying to analyze what you know nothing of. Seeing them wondering why there were no helions creep tumor denial against 4 queens, or whether or not 25 magix boxed mutalisks would lose to 4 unrepairable thors was quite painful.
I'm not asking them to be at a Thud (French IronSquid caster) or BW Tasteless level, but at least step your game up.
ps : I acknowledge how hard it is to get excited behind a computer desk at night, and I personaly wouldn't be able to do it without taking substances.
Overall I think they've improved significantly since they've started. I can watch the stream without putting it on mute, the commentary is better and there is less yelling. There's been more play by play and less false predictions. I hope that the thread can provide some constructive feedback. I think an important point is to find a good balance for the back and forth between the 2 casters, complement each other's qualities, give each other space, focus on what you're comfortable with. Good luck guys.
Whiplash is good. He seems to have decent analysis (he's rarely wrong enough to the point where the opposite of what he says is true). I dislike SNM though. He's not very fluid with his speech or something. A weird sort of cadence. And he doesn't seem to know much about the game.
Also, OP you should create two different polls, one for Whiplash and one for SNM.
I believe SNM speaks Korean, right? If so, then I suggest you get inside info from Korean teams/players so you can give such nuggets during the cast. Also you can listen to Korean casts of games to learn the game even if you don't really want to play. I know you're not in Korea, but surely through connections you can get at least solid info on Kespa teams, random nuggets that aren't confidential but still allow viewers to connect more with the players.
I think connection with players is very important. And with TL partnering up with Kespa, this gives a brand new inside look at kespa team houses and players, to bring players and fans together. Perhaps have some fans ask the players some questions, and have those answers during the cast. It's not always about dry knowledge. A lot of fans root for teams/players through emotion. And this emotional attachment was mostly deprived during the BW days due to the scene being totally Korean. This should be rectified in SC2 if Kespa truly want to make this an international market.
The casters was in my opinion really bad at the beginning, but after working together some, they got better. It's still not being close to enjoyable as tastosis, but a step in the right direction. I hope they continue working hard to improve.
On January 21 2013 19:18 Visage814 wrote: I'm actually really surprised how many complain about SNM's accent... it sounds totally fine to me, I've never had a single problem understanding him. He might have a slight lisp, but it's really not that bad. He speaks better english than a ton of people I know (especially all my math teachers... UGH)
Yeah actually, I was thinking about it too. Mainly because there are few very praised casters, whose accent is much worse - Khaldor being the prime example, and mostly all the players that are casting like Grubby, TLO or Tod to name a few. (Don't get me wrong, I love all those and I don't really mind accents, it just seems weird to me that someone complaine about SNM accent which is nearly non-existent).
You say his accent is nearly non-existent, but you aren't a native english speaker. to an native english speaker, foreigners accents are glaringly obvious, SNM's is extremely pronounced. I don't care about the accent, but its obviously there. The amount of people that think Soe is actually English annoys me, to any native speaker she is obviously not English, she has the least accent of any non-native caster/personality in SC2 but to someone who grew up less than 15 miles from Buckingham Palace, its quite obvious that she is German.
There is always a twang, no matter how slight and British/Americans/Australians will always pick up on it. It is afterall, our language. I actually speak English as a second language, technically, as I spoke French until the age of 4, however I've always lived in the Uk so I have a UK accent. When I speak French, even tho I do if flawlessly, a French person can still tell I'm not French because my accent is always slightly off to their ear.
One obvious thing that I notice that bugs me, can't even remember if its SNM who says it is......"in the meanwhile". That hurts every time I hear it. You can either say "meanwhile" or "in the mean time" I would hope that its not the native english speaker making the mistake constantly ;p
To me, in a vaccum, SNM and whiplash have improved loads. However, when compared to apollo, tastosis, bitterdam, wolfdor etc... They are nowhere near... Which is sad because SPL is actually quite good to watch.
it s not that they just give wrong predictions (evryone does form time to time) but the way they describe strategies on certain maps or buildorders is just terrible
mybe it s because today we are used to the high quality casting of other events such as gsl / ipl / iem and so on.
when there is a pvt in non PL games and terran starts with gas first usually non PL casters talk about the posibility of banshe or helion drops.
when there is a pvt in PL and terran opens with gas first the commentators will discuss about BW carear of some Player their record the haircut the colour of stuff i dont care and so on
even when ist getting better , they still have a long way to go
and i somehow doubt that snm will ever reach the lvl of quality we are used from other casters. (thou shall not mix unit names in a casting , thou shall not call the guy who will be dead meat in 30 seconds winner of the game ! and so on)
On January 21 2013 11:46 Son of Gnome wrote: Whiplash is cool, but snm... yeah....
I personally like whiplash more as well, but I feel like snm is growing a lot. The only thing I really don't like about his casting is that he can't handle whiplashes jokes and kinda blows him off and doesn't play along.
Agreed. I enjoy the casts alot, it just seems that every time whiplash (the foreigner, right?) tries to make a joke, snm has no qualms about blowing him off, like he lacks a sense of humor, or something. I always attributed to their cultural differences, such as when someone here in Georgia (I'm originally from Cuba) tells me to 'cut off/on' the lights. But, the GSL casters do not seem to have a problem with it.
Its not that they are especially bad, It's just that they could've gotten someone like apollo to do it which would've been far far better imo (Slight fanboyism).
Im guessing they are not actually ingame them selfs instead are just having to rely on what the obs shows them wich is a big diffrence if you are comparing them to casters on GSL / IPL / DH / IEM wich always have personal access to all the observer tabs. I hope they keep improving, i currently dont listen to them to much but if they keep at it i probably will at some point.
On January 21 2013 22:45 Mooneyes wrote: Im guessing they are not actually ingame them selfs instead are just having to rely on what the obs shows them wich is a big diffrence if you are comparing them to casters on GSL / IPL / DH / IEM wich always have personal access to all the observer tabs. I hope they keep improving, i currently dont listen to them to much but if they keep at it i probably will at some point.
That's what they have, like old BW casts, except that they have access to a stream without the korean commentary.
SNM works better as a John figure, just doing translations when he's needed and going backstage to help out instead (it makes sense, because foreigner players participating will have a hard time without translators). He has barely any knowledge of the game, makes for most of the awkwardness in the casts, and does not sound that good live.
Let Whiplash work with someone else, like an actual analysis caster.
Whiplash is doing a nice job in my opinion, snm is at about the same level of casting as Khaldor is to me. Like the guy but just can´t listen to him for long.
The white guy needs to stop but the Korean commentator is trying. I don't really mind the casting, just appreciate the game.
Also, a note for all casters. YOU DONT HAVE TO ANALYZE IN DEPTH. Just go over the game, play-by-play, and do some basic analyzing like upgrades, army sizes, engagements and macro. Stop trying to do a daily live.
"snm" is probably the worst sc2 caster in history. His lisp/speech impediment/mental disability or whatever the hell it is, is just entirely TOO much. It's insane. Let's be honest here, he's horrible, has no idea what he is talking about, and constantly fights with tripping over his own words. He has zero command over the English language and it makes my ears bleed to hear him try to talk.
On January 22 2013 00:53 Kluey wrote: Also, a note for all casters. YOU DONT HAVE TO ANALYZE IN DEPTH. Just go over the game, play-by-play, and do some basic analyzing like upgrades, army sizes, engagements and macro. Stop trying to do a daily live.
Although I agree and prefer that style of casting (and do it myself), the community is pretty split on the issue. Lots of people will say "I can see what's going on, give me analysis" instead. =/
They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl.
On January 22 2013 00:53 JackReacher wrote: "snm" is probably the worst sc2 caster in history. His lisp/speech impediment/mental disability or whatever the hell it is, is just entirely TOO much. It's insane. Let's be honest here, he's horrible, has no idea what he is talking about, and constantly fights with tripping over his own words. He has zero command over the English language and it makes my ears bleed to hear him try to talk.
There are french casters who are A LOT worse. But SNM has indeed a lot of work to do in order to become a proper proleague caster.
On January 22 2013 01:04 MarkCJ wrote: They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl.
Did SNM actually bash sc2 on proleague? Wow, then he's stupider than I thought. I saw him bash sc2 quite often on TL and in stream chats but on a televised show? I don't know why he even took the job if he thinks sc2 is so inferior to BW.
On January 22 2013 01:04 MarkCJ wrote: They're not bad, they've had some funny moments so i must say overall i enjoy them. If you excuse some odd calls from SNM then it's nice to listen to, I get exited when they get exited and they keep me engaged and I enjoy SNMs insight on his progamers knowledge.
See.. I dont play this game.. proleague to me is more casual. Sit back and have a beer type of entertainment. It's Bo1 afterall.. So no analytics is actually refreshing to me, no need to think or take anything seriously it's just a jolly time =)
However when I heard SNM bash sc2 I totally just though how unprofessional that was. I don't care what vulture micro would have been like in this situation or how drops in BW were more exiting. people tuned in to watch sc2 not to listen to something I hear too often on Tl.
Did SNM actually bash sc2 on proleague? Wow, then he's stupider than I thought. I saw him bash sc2 quite often on TL and in stream chats but on a televised show? I don't know why he even took the job if he thinks sc2 is so inferior to BW.
well I say bash on sc2.. from my experience he keeps on reminiscing on and on about how in BW it would have been better..to me it feels like he kinda indirectly bashes sc2 by talking about how BW so great on a bloody sc2 cast! I feel like he's forced at gunpoint to cast sc2 sometimes lol
To those of you saying that they could have got better casters, yes probably, infact Kaelaris said he was asked(probably others as well) but for various reasons I guess they didn't want to and they ended up with SNM and Whiplash.
I've tuned in to quite a few games this season and here's what I've got to say about the English casting duo:
- It's not that bad. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as some people say it is. I've heard much worse (English) amateur/semi-professional casting for BW/SC2 for all these years and I think the SNM+Whiplash duo is better than a whole lot of them.
- More teamwork, please! One thing that stands out as a major area of improvement is teamwork. Instead of building on each other's points, the SNM+Whiplash casting often wanders in two different directions as each caster tries to carry his own train of thought with very little regards to the other. Rookie mistake? Maybe. The beauty of the original Korean casting team (@ OGN) is that with over a decade of experience, they have amazing teamwork and build up the excitement piece by piece until the GG.
Let me give you a Mario Strikers (Wii) example: the original OGN team tries to score by doing connecting a bunch of sick passes to build up the ball charge then scores with the biggest one-timer, GG. The SNM+Whiplash duo is kind of like Toad and Hammer Bro trying to score individually with their skill/charge shots. The amazing string of passes from the OGN team manages to avoid the tackles (hate and criticism) from the defending team (the "eSports fans") and when the slow-mo for the big shot is engaged, everyone gets absorbed into the moment before the play culminates in an epic goal. On the other side, the newbie Toad trying to solo through the defenders gets crushed (by the defending team / eSports fans) into the electric fence, ball is loose, Hammer Bro picks it up, right away starts charging for the hammer shot, before get demolished in the face by the defending team again.
Was that confusing? Point: needs better teamwork!
- Less stating the obvious, needs more depth and breadth. This is a fairly general statement and it comes with a bunch of exceptions and things but the point is, casters need to offer something that the viewers can't get on his/her own. It can be anything from past match statistics to player-specific jokes as long as it's based on something factual. We don't want to know about what you (caster) did on ladder two weeks ago, we want to know why the player is doing an unusual build in this specific map and what consequences it may lead to. It's not asking for mind-reading capabilities, it's asking for a well-constructed "educated guess" on the situation. Saying "oh he's doing immortal-sentry all-in again, it's a powerful build when done right, opponent is in big trouble" and "this immortal-sentry may work better on this map due to x and y and on top of that, the opponent is totally not expecting it as you can see from his build, so in z minutes we can expect him to be completely shocked" seems similar, but the viewer gets more satisfaction from that extra bit of expert information.
- Don't get excited before we do. We, the self-entitled viewers, want to be excited. We don't care if you are. It's the reality and it's your job so it's up to you (the casters) to make up for it. Like I said above, you need teamwork to build up excitement. Pass on the analysis back and forth, add and pad on the chain of thought, and don't be afraid to sound like a crazy dog if the situation calls for it. Even after a big main army battle and the seconds before the inevitable GG, float our hopes up there with stuff like "we can almost feel his despair as he gathers his remaining armies, hoping for a miracle" instead of "and the supply difference is 170 to 60 as we wait for him to GG out".
- Respect both old BW-veterans and newcomers to SC2. It's okay and maybe even beneficial to reference BW once in a while - what's wrong with comparing the current state of the game with its roots? I think it's good for all viewers to know stuff like how a player's specific style evolved since his BW days, or how he adapted his style with the new/changed unit dynamics. One thing I have to say here though, is that you shouldn't use BW references if you aren't sure about is details. It makes us (who actually know a little more than you do about certain aspects) disgusted.
There was one game where Crazy (BW: Crazy-Hydra) was making a ton of lings, and you blabbed on for the last ~10 minutes of the game how this style is like the Crazy Zerg style from BW where you pump lings non-stop and toss them at the enemy until they get overwhelmed. Well, that's a small part of the actual strategy, and you missed the core point of it. The Crazy Zerg style indeed makes a lot of lings - but for a specific purpose. In BW ZvT, transitioning from Lair tech to Hive tech can be done in various ways - but commonly the zerg player morphs a handful of lurkers to hold ramps, occupy key map positions, and maybe even try drop plays. The Crazy Zerg strategy skips that. While microing the heart out of the mutalisk stack and keeping Terran player disjointed, the Zerg player pumps lings and immediately techs to Hive with no other gas expenses (maybe except ground unit defence upgrades). The point of Crazy Zerg is to reach Hive tech very fast and with lots of gas (even on 2 or 3 gas situations) so that once you reach Hive, you can immediately produce ultralisks (skip defilers because they are for pussies) and immediately overpower the Terran player. So yes, lots of lings are sacrificed, but the point is to reach Hive and make fast ultralisks. Casting time is short and the game is intense, so I understand that you can't explain all this in detail even if you knew it. However, I got sick of hearing "oh this is like Crazy Zerg from BW" "in BW there is this Crazy Zerg style where you pump lings" "Crazy about to win with Crazy Zerg style from BW" "Crazy, using Crazy Zerg style from BW, takes the set for KT" etc. A 10-second context information like "this is similar to Crazy Zerg from BW - but instead of going fast Hive + ultralisks like in BW Crazy Zerg, [in this game of SC2 right now] he's just going to try to finish his opponent with tons of zerglings!" would have got the job done properly.
- Most of all, keep the enthusiasm up! I've written huge blocks of text above because I genuinely want to raise the English casting level up a few notches so that the viewers (including myself) can have a better experience. Thanks for the efforts and GLHF!
Some things I think Whiplash and SNM need to improve are
1) When a player does something that they don't agree with they often call it a "mistake" and skip over the reasoning why its happening - for instance in the final match HerO v TY (I think) the Vikings were in many ways forced out of position by HerO, and TY trying to stutter step his bioball + build reinforcements meant he was slow to move over the vikings and also had he moved the vikings without the support of his core army he would have ran the risk of having them picked of by stalkers on the way etc. Calling things an out right mistake often hurts the players and makes viewers think that players are incompetent which is rarely the case. 2) The casters seem to lack synergy at this stage its to be expected that they wouldn't be cutting one another out/ pointing out the others mistake in a likely upsetting manner (in comparison to maybe making a joke or saying I think what you mean to say is xyz) 3)Also if SNM really is set on pursuing a career in casting he may want to look into having a chat with a speech therapist or getting some lessons on broadcasting vocalizing/breathing that could reduce the noticeable issues that he is having
If you need to see a fucking speech therapist, a job in casting is the last thing you should consider. I'm all for personal betterment and overcoming obstacles, but not at the expense of the viewers and the quality of the product produced by an entire industry. SC2 as a whole should not suffer just because one person wants to get over his fucking speech impediment. There is such a thing as too much tolerance, despite what political-correctness-philes would have you believe. Get this guy away from the microphone ASAP, for the love of all that is holy.
In the beginning I was not sure, if I can handle the cast, but, after 7 weeks of improving, it's a lot better. I think in round 4 the casters will be really good, so gl and hf in the future
I like the insight and korean on the fly translating. I dislike the playbyplay and strategy analysis they are giving. This can be redeemed, but will it be done fast? Hard to say. SNM needs caster training and perhaps even more english lessons to make his casting more coherent.
I'd like to echo the point: SNM is fairly unbearable to listen to. Whiplash is good and would benefit greatly with a partner that facilitates synergy. They lack the essence of casting as a duo - synergy.
Sola transfers 6 drones from his main to his third ~7 minutes into the game and Whiplash thinks Sola is pulling drones to go all-in?!
WHAT?!
It would have been funny if he said it as a joke "OH MAN HERE COMES THE 7-MINUTE 6-DRONE-PULL ALL-IN I TALKED ABOUT!!" (this is why Tasteless is so good-- his understanding of the pro metagame is pretty poor as well, but he knows enough to turn his ignorance into comedy)... but Whiplash wasn't joking.
I can't fathom how anyone that follows professional SC2 would assume all-in rather than standard drone maynarding.
I think Whisplash is doing a good job given the circumstances (I guess they are not pro), but SNM is really a big problem for the show. I'm sorry to say that and I have nothing personnal against him. His knowledge of the game his not good but the worst part is what he says outside the game analysis.
One thing to improve would just be general awareness of what's happening. I remember one ZvT SNM was ranting on and on about how one spore crawler won't be enough to stop the banshees, which would have been fine if it wasn't for the fact that you could clearly see on the screen the zerg was building about 6 spore crawlers already, something which went completely unacknowledged. Then another game he called some storms terrible for missing the ground army when in fact they were hitting a big bunch of clumped up vikings. Maybe that's just something that comes with practice but it's really important, viewers shouldn't feel like banging their heads on the table because a caster is missing obvious stuff like that.
It feels like they are very inexperienced with the game, and sometimes, it's very hard to ignore. When that's the case, I usually mute the stream, but then the stream becomes very flat and bland. I don't doubt they will improve with time though, if management decides to keep them casting, and they give their best effort.
On a somewhat unrelated note, I really have to give a huge shoutout to Nathanias for providing additional commentary for the Proleague games. It's been literally thanks to him that I've been able to follow most of the Proleague teams and matches besides EG-TL. And since then, I've become more emotionally attached with players, teams, and the league itself. LOV U 4-EVER DARK NATHANIAS
I honestly can't vote for anything other than "I dislike it". I feel a little guilty however because Whiplash is actually a decent caster. SNM has no personality and is at least partially responsible for killing eSports.
I think the situation would be salvagable if Whiplash was able to mute SNM's mic before the match; I would prefer periods of silence to hearing SNM's uninformed, or often outright wrong, analysis of what's going on.
It's getting better I suppose. But one thing that does bother me is when the two of them begin arguing over stuff (someone says something, the other corrects, the original caster then tries to defend himself and retorts). Very unprofessional
And there is the issue of having a good casting voice. Some people just have good casting voices. SNM does not sadly. Do I recommend voice lesson or something? I don't know.
Still, I don't think the casting is up to the standards that I would expect from a premier teamleague.
On January 22 2013 03:14 Bagration wrote: Still, I don't think the casting is up to the standards that I would expect from a premier teamleague.
That's a big part of it I think. The fans hold proleague to a high standard because it is _the_ team league. If these guys were doing some one-off tournament I don't think they'd receive a shred of criticism.
I like both of them fine as personalities, just something about their casting style seems off to me.
I'll watch the cast and I will enjoy it, but it seems a little haphazard/forced. I know this isn't very constructive as criticism goes, but this is just what comes to mind when I think of the casts. It just seems a little bit awkward.
I'm sure it'll get better over time and I hope to see both of them get much better!
It was silly to hire them. For the most professional and respected team league in SC2, you don't hire casters and say, "Oh, don't worry. They'll get to the required level in time" - they're either at that level, or they don't get the job.
On January 22 2013 03:28 Jedclark wrote: It was silly to hire them. For the most professional and respected team league in SC2, you don't hire casters and say, "Oh, don't worry. They'll get to the required level in time" - they're either at that level, or they don't get the job.
I'm guessing there are no more than 3-4 qualified individuals who are willing to accept the job. What's with all these posts that assume there are waves of casters lining up to quit their job/schooling, move to the other side of the world, and get paid slightly more than minimum wage?
I watched the first two weeks with sound, afterwards I just muted them and listened to music while watching the matches. What I found is that they commented very dull, and basically went play by play only, without giving any valuable insights into the playstyles or builds that we see. If they try to predict or interpret what's strategically happening, they are usually very far off. They lack any kind of synergy and did not add any entertainment value. What they did and what they put much emphasis on, is providing BW background of the players and how they performed in the past SPLs. Unfortunately, I couldn't care less about that (I never followed BW, and if someone sucks at SC2, what's the relevance if they did well in a Proleague three years ago?). Of course that is all my personal perspective and that might have totally changed by now, as I haven't listened to them in the last few weeks. So I might give them another try, considering there are quite a few here saying that they have improved. What's more important to me however, is that the observer they use is not very good (the one on English VODs, don't know about the Korean one, at least compared to Legend and Adebisi). He is often missing important parts of engagements while looking at very unimportant stuff and is in general not highlighting interesting stuff enough.
On January 22 2013 00:53 Kluey wrote: Also, a note for all casters. YOU DONT HAVE TO ANALYZE IN DEPTH. Just go over the game, play-by-play, and do some basic analyzing like upgrades, army sizes, engagements and macro. Stop trying to do a daily live.
Although I agree and prefer that style of casting (and do it myself), the community is pretty split on the issue. Lots of people will say "I can see what's going on, give me analysis" instead. =/
Can't please everyone!
You actually can though.
You can have one caster for analysis and one for play by play. Starcraft, other e-sports, and regular sports have been doing this for a LONG time. Artosis and Tasteless (GSL Code S), Rotterdam and Mr. Bitter (NASL), and previously Wolf and DOA (GSL Code A), and later DOA and Cats PJs (IPL) are all examples of an analyst and a play by play caster combo.
On January 22 2013 03:28 Jedclark wrote: It was silly to hire them. For the most professional and respected team league in SC2, you don't hire casters and say, "Oh, don't worry. They'll get to the required level in time" - they're either at that level, or they don't get the job.
I'm guessing there are no more than 3-4 qualified individuals who are willing to accept the job. What's with all these posts that assume there are waves of casters lining up to quit their job/schooling, move to the other side of the world, and get paid slightly more than minimum wage?
Doa and... others (don't recall) were going to cast PL, and then KESPA fucked them over. Doa even made a post about it because he thought they wouldn't have an English cast at all.
Afterwards, they gave the casting over to the foreign scene (EG, TL, IPL) and they did a good job at first. I wish they just continued to do this. I'll take random IPL casters over these guys.
snm voice is annoying, whiplash voice is okay although i didn't really tried to understand everything he said ( i don't know how good they are at the game ) Most incredible thing is that i had to make "in depth" search on google to actually know who is who.
It just feels to me like they've been forced to cast this sometimes. I rarely feel like they have much passion for the game, they obviously care alot for the players and the team's, but I still feel like they don't play SC2 all that much.
Makes you wonder how good it would have been with Kaelaris in there.
I wonder who else was contacted though. Obviously the GSL casters are off-limits, and Bitterdam are in NASL, but I'm sure they could've gotten people like Orb and Apollo if they tried hard enough. Kaelaris too. After all, they only really need just 3 or 4 days for events like Dreamhack and IEM.
Whiplash can be alright but the other guy just *facepalm* if artosis is a 10/10 whip lash is 6/10 other guy is 3/10. I wish they would fly me out lol at least I would know what I was talking about.
On January 22 2013 03:58 derpface wrote: I dislike when people complain or hate on something just because they can.
If you dont like to listen you can just mute or actually try to feedback in a constructive way.
Deal with it.
This is a thread asking for feedback. As it happens to be, a majority of people do not have a very positive opinion of their work, so of course a lot of criticism is voiced. If you want to forbid criticism, then this shouldn't be a feedback thread but a fan club thread.
If you don't like to read criticism you can just avoid reading this kind of thread or actually open a fan club for them.
On January 22 2013 03:58 derpface wrote: I dislike when people complain or hate on something just because they can.
If you dont like to listen you can just mute or actually try to feedback in a constructive way.
Deal with it.
I would argue that most people in this thread are being relatively constructive, although most of the responses lean towards the negative. If, by chance, the casters read the criticism and work on improving their faults, it'll be a great benefit to everyone.
Example: Jaedong vs Argo, Game #2 last night, mid-game (me paraphrasing):
SNM: Jaedong is extremely behind, it will be a long time before he can afford to start a 4th base. Me: **Look at minimap, 4th base started, half complete**
These errors occur basically every game and are like nails on a chalkboard.
I think they need to work better as a duo. I get the impression that they are both used to solo casting. I do not know what to recommend, but perhaps they could get some advice from casters who are used to working a part of a pair.
They are unacceptably terrible. This isn't a charity, if you get paid to do something it is not unreasonable for people to expect you have to have even the slightest talent for it - "You couldn't do better" is NOT an argument, myself and others didn't decide to make it our job. They are really just the worst. I imagine the SPL will lock down a proper casting duo for next season as soon as they can and just ride it out with these guys while they have to.
On January 22 2013 03:58 derpface wrote: I dislike when people complain or hate on something just because they can.
If you dont like to listen you can just mute or actually try to feedback in a constructive way.
Deal with it.
Being constructive would imply that the poster feels that the problem is fixable. Making blatantly wrong statements about the game state consistently and generally not understanding even the ultra basics of the game doesn't really leave you much in terms of value from their commentary. In my mind, this is the equivalent of a Bronze player asking for strategy advice, when really they just need to get better at the ultra basics of the game.
I'm generally pretty easygoing when it comes to casters, but I did mute the stream and went to Nathanias's RaidCall when I've watched Proleague the past. I always start off giving them a chance to show improvement, but I've been disappointed every time.
You're also welcome to "deal with" people complaining about them, as well. It kind of goes both ways, especially since this is a designated feedback thread.
Only thing that I found disturbing was the word "however" after a while atleast. It takes some time to get used to each other. Not everyone can be grandmaster on day one.
I've tuned in to quite a few games this season and here's what I've got to say about the English casting duo:
- It's not that bad. Honestly, I don't think it's as bad as some people say it is. I've heard much worse (English) amateur/semi-professional casting for BW/SC2 for all these years and I think the SNM+Whiplash duo is better than a whole lot of them.
- More teamwork, please! One thing that stands out as a major area of improvement is teamwork. Instead of building on each other's points, the SNM+Whiplash casting often wanders in two different directions as each caster tries to carry his own train of thought with very little regards to the other. Rookie mistake? Maybe. The beauty of the original Korean casting team (@ OGN) is that with over a decade of experience, they have amazing teamwork and build up the excitement piece by piece until the GG.
Let me give you a Mario Strikers (Wii) example: the original OGN team tries to score by doing connecting a bunch of sick passes to build up the ball charge then scores with the biggest one-timer, GG. The SNM+Whiplash duo is kind of like Toad and Hammer Bro trying to score individually with their skill/charge shots. The amazing string of passes from the OGN team manages to avoid the tackles (hate and criticism) from the defending team (the "eSports fans") and when the slow-mo for the big shot is engaged, everyone gets absorbed into the moment before the play culminates in an epic goal. On the other side, the newbie Toad trying to solo through the defenders gets crushed (by the defending team / eSports fans) into the electric fence, ball is loose, Hammer Bro picks it up, right away starts charging for the hammer shot, before get demolished in the face by the defending team again.
Was that confusing? Point: needs better teamwork!
- Less stating the obvious, needs more depth and breadth. This is a fairly general statement and it comes with a bunch of exceptions and things but the point is, casters need to offer something that the viewers can't get on his/her own. It can be anything from past match statistics to player-specific jokes as long as it's based on something factual. We don't want to know about what you (caster) did on ladder two weeks ago, we want to know why the player is doing an unusual build in this specific map and what consequences it may lead to. It's not asking for mind-reading capabilities, it's asking for a well-constructed "educated guess" on the situation. Saying "oh he's doing immortal-sentry all-in again, it's a powerful build when done right, opponent is in big trouble" and "this immortal-sentry may work better on this map due to x and y and on top of that, the opponent is totally not expecting it as you can see from his build, so in z minutes we can expect him to be completely shocked" seems similar, but the viewer gets more satisfaction from that extra bit of expert information.
- Don't get excited before we do. We, the self-entitled viewers, want to be excited. We don't care if you are. It's the reality and it's your job so it's up to you (the casters) to make up for it. Like I said above, you need teamwork to build up excitement. Pass on the analysis back and forth, add and pad on the chain of thought, and don't be afraid to sound like a crazy dog if the situation calls for it. Even after a big main army battle and the seconds before the inevitable GG, float our hopes up there with stuff like "we can almost feel his despair as he gathers his remaining armies, hoping for a miracle" instead of "and the supply difference is 170 to 60 as we wait for him to GG out".
- Respect both old BW-veterans and newcomers to SC2. It's okay and maybe even beneficial to reference BW once in a while - what's wrong with comparing the current state of the game with its roots? I think it's good for all viewers to know stuff like how a player's specific style evolved since his BW days, or how he adapted his style with the new/changed unit dynamics. One thing I have to say here though, is that you shouldn't use BW references if you aren't sure about is details. It makes us (who actually know a little more than you do about certain aspects) disgusted.
There was one game where Crazy (BW: Crazy-Hydra) was making a ton of lings, and you blabbed on for the last ~10 minutes of the game how this style is like the Crazy Zerg style from BW where you pump lings non-stop and toss them at the enemy until they get overwhelmed. Well, that's a small part of the actual strategy, and you missed the core point of it. The Crazy Zerg style indeed makes a lot of lings - but for a specific purpose. In BW ZvT, transitioning from Lair tech to Hive tech can be done in various ways - but commonly the zerg player morphs a handful of lurkers to hold ramps, occupy key map positions, and maybe even try drop plays. The Crazy Zerg strategy skips that. While microing the heart out of the mutalisk stack and keeping Terran player disjointed, the Zerg player pumps lings and immediately techs to Hive with no other gas expenses (maybe except ground unit defence upgrades). The point of Crazy Zerg is to reach Hive tech very fast and with lots of gas (even on 2 or 3 gas situations) so that once you reach Hive, you can immediately produce ultralisks (skip defilers because they are for pussies) and immediately overpower the Terran player. So yes, lots of lings are sacrificed, but the point is to reach Hive and make fast ultralisks. Casting time is short and the game is intense, so I understand that you can't explain all this in detail even if you knew it. However, I got sick of hearing "oh this is like Crazy Zerg from BW" "in BW there is this Crazy Zerg style where you pump lings" "Crazy about to win with Crazy Zerg style from BW" "Crazy, using Crazy Zerg style from BW, takes the set for KT" etc. A 10-second context information like "this is similar to Crazy Zerg from BW - but instead of going fast Hive + ultralisks like in BW Crazy Zerg, [in this game of SC2 right now] he's just going to try to finish his opponent with tons of zerglings!" would have got the job done properly.
- Most of all, keep the enthusiasm up! I've written huge blocks of text above because I genuinely want to raise the English casting level up a few notches so that the viewers (including myself) can have a better experience. Thanks for the efforts and GLHF!
This is a perfect example of constructive criticism. I wish more people would take time to actually put thought into their posts instead of just downright whining. Well said, I whole-heartedly agree.
On January 22 2013 03:58 derpface wrote: I dislike when people complain or hate on something just because they can.
If you dont like to listen you can just mute or actually try to feedback in a constructive way.
Deal with it.
I advise you take your own advice and not click on this thread.
I personally have muted 95% of the SPL. Something tells me the people running the show would want to avoid me doing that. In order to avoid that, they'd have to know there is a problem in the first place.
Anyway, I just wish they'd use someone that has some standing in the community and is widely enjoyed by most people already. This doesn't seem like the level of event that should be a testing ground for unproven and personality-lacking casters.
SPL is awesome and doesn't deserve anything less out of their commentators.
I like their casting. It seems alright. But is there anyway to listen to korean castnig? I'm korean and I would prefer to listen to Korean casting over English casting even though I like SNM's casting voice.
On January 22 2013 04:44 Vasoline73 wrote: I think it's funny most people say they like Whiplash more than SNM because I feel the opposite.
Both of them have been improving though, so hopefully they keep getting better and better.
He has a relatively low level of knowledge regarding the game itself, but he has a clear voice and doesn't fumble with his speaking as much as SNM does. Game knowledge will improve over time, and if he's really dedicated to his job like the big-name casters are, he'll do his research by watching VODs for premiere tournaments like MLG, GSL, Dreamhack and IEM, and actually play the game on a relatively high level in order to find out trends, patterns and to quickly gather what is going on and what will most likely be happening soon from simply looking at the situation at hand. After all, working as an analyst with outdated information is an easy way to get fired in the real world.
Analytical casters like Artosis, Apollo and Rotterdam play on the ladder at very high levels, and you can see it showing through their analysis during games. Day9 also used to play at a very high level until after the first few ladder seasons, when he had the time to do so.
On January 22 2013 03:28 Jedclark wrote: It was silly to hire them. For the most professional and respected team league in SC2, you don't hire casters and say, "Oh, don't worry. They'll get to the required level in time" - they're either at that level, or they don't get the job.
I'm guessing there are no more than 3-4 qualified individuals who are willing to accept the job. What's with all these posts that assume there are waves of casters lining up to quit their job/schooling, move to the other side of the world, and get paid slightly more than minimum wage?
Doa and... others (don't recall) were going to cast PL, and then KESPA fucked them over. Doa even made a post about it because he thought they wouldn't have an English cast at all.
Afterwards, they gave the casting over to the foreign scene (EG, TL, IPL) and they did a good job at first. I wish they just continued to do this. I'll take random IPL casters over these guys.
It was so stupid that they didn't let DOA cast- honestly he would have been way better. Typical KESPA control-freaking as usual.
One of the most frustrating thing is that we are in a business where tons of qualified people would have done a better job.
I am okay for giving a chance to new faces (in fact, I think it's necessary), but come on, why on earth would you chose those two for such an important league, this just blows my mind.
Whiplash is.... okay, and might be salvageable with a different co-caster. SNM is essentially a passion-less Moletrap with far worse pronunciation and command of the english language. The dude simply has no place casting a tournament as prestigious as proleague.
On January 22 2013 05:01 snam wrote: For me, the worst part of the broadcast is the horrible observer who frequently misses battles and drops.
This too. Even for such a prestigious league, they seem to have an observer that doesn't seem to have much experience with observing. What happened to their BW observers? Or are these the same observers (who haven't really adjusted to the SCII interface)?
I feel like the kid that I was that missed a broadcast of X-men because of church every single time the observer misses these important climactic battles.
There's getting better but still have a ways to go, both as separate castes as well as a duo. They don't play well off of each other yet and the humor isn't really there. Not to mention the awkward "I wasn't talking about that" sort of things like last night (talking about the difficulty of other games when the other guy was talking about something completely different).
Some people are not meant to be casters. I would love to cast games, but I know that I don't have the necessary oration skills to do so. SNM is one of those people that simply isn't meant to be a caster. It doesn't matter how much he practices, he will never be as fluent with his words as people like Artosis, Apollo, or Grubby. It's genetic. I don't mean to bash on the guy, but you can't let him think its working for him. Like many others have said before me, you gotta call it like it is. He shouldn't pursue a career of casting, period.
On January 22 2013 03:58 derpface wrote: I dislike when people complain or hate on something just because they can.
If you dont like to listen you can just mute or actually try to feedback in a constructive way.
Deal with it.
This is a thread asking for feedback. As it happens to be, a majority of people do not have a very positive opinion of their work, so of course a lot of criticism is voiced. If you want to forbid criticism, then this shouldn't be a feedback thread but a fan club thread.
If you don't like to read criticism you can just avoid reading this kind of thread or actually open a fan club for them.
Deal with it.
I dont want any god damn fanclub.
Its just that people just say "They're bad" and thats it. No FEEDBACK at all.
Just stupid to go out and say its bad when you dont have anything else to add.
I quite enjoy the PL casts, they've improved since late 2012, and I hope they continue to do so. I'd also agree with what several people have already said: the observing needs to be a bit more work. For comparison (in my opinion) GSL observers have that fantastic game sense, every frame they catch is of great significance, always effectively switching between units on the field and units in production, and clicking on army units intermittently to update the audience on how upgrades are going. In PL, we still sometimes have issues of missing drops or larger scale battles, which is a bit of a hindrance. I love watching PL, but I think the greatest improvement to be made lies with the observers at the time being.
More on topic: Whiplash and SNM have made great improvement in their casting. I admit sometimes the humor is hit and miss, but they certainly have a solid grasp of the game, the casting itself just needs a bit of refinement (which can only come with passion and practice). I anxiously await to see what 2013 holds for them and for PL in general!
I dislike their casting a lot. I'm sure they will get better over time but a tournament like Proleague should not have amateur casters. What was the reason they got rid of Bitter/TB?
On January 22 2013 05:29 Juggernaut477 wrote: I dislike their casting a lot. I'm sure they will get better over time but a tournament like Proleague should not have amateur casters. What was the reason they got rid of Bitter/TB?
It was a test cast while they were looking for a more permanent set of casters. After all, you can't really expect guys like TotalBiscuit and MrBitter to show up every single time because the former runs a team and the latter already has a stable job at NASL.
I actually think that if SNM starts to play a game and understand what's happening on the screen, he could be decent. Not like top-tier caster with awesome voice but still decent. I can understand that it's hard to get someone to cast at this awkward hour and Korean seems to be reasonable pick to translate when there's interview or something happens like referee is needed but SNM seriously has to put heart into this thing and start to play like mad to get that understanding/watch other casters and get broader idea on how to cast.
On January 22 2013 03:32 Cel.erity wrote: What's with all these posts that assume there are waves of casters lining up to quit their job/schooling, move to the other side of the world, and get paid slightly more than minimum wage?
Maybe at the last minute there aren't many people. But otherwise for the darn proleague there should be someone decent casters. Where does the Artosis, Tasteless, Khaldor and Wolf come from? If proleague pays nothing compared to GOMTv it is another problem but if we had 4 very competent casters that moved or were in Korea to cast a pretigous korean league, there should be one or two more. It is more demanding than the GSL but when you see Khaldor casting non stop you think it must be doable. Even if you only find someone half as good, it'll be a huge improvement.
I think Whiplash might be somewhat fine with some general enthusiasm, which is the biggest thing missing from SPL English casting when compared to Korean Proleague casting. But I don't think SNM is anything but a genuinely terrible caster. Unfortunately I can't imagine enjoying listening ever to him, because his language expression and clarity--both of which are essential to any type of caster--just cannot improve. Regrettably I don't think I'd be reporting anything differently if he were funnier, better analytically, or worked better with Whiplash even slightly: Kyrao is right on the money when he says some people are not meant to be casters, and SNM is one of them. :|
I assume most top masters/grandmasters players cannot stand their cast at all. I personally dont watch pro league... All they do is state the obvious... Im sure they are great ppl... but maybe they should try to play a few thousand games at high masters+ level so that they can understand the decision makings, mind games, and also predict the outcome of engagements and games better.
So many times i find myself knowing exactly what a player is up to just to have to caster say something that doesnt make any sense... then the player ends up proving me right and them wrong and Im like ahhhhhhhhh fk this shit LOL.
I know its hard to be an Artosis or a Apollo. but its PRO LEAGUE. I expect the caster to explain to us how they think a player should react from scouting certain things. I want them to tell us WHY that player took that decision instead of another. I want them to know what other options he could have taken. I want them to tell us exactly what build a player is up to.
Idk maybe im too harsh, Im sure casual players can enjoy their cast, they are great guys that love their jobs.. but.... too hard for me to watch . I seriously think i could do a better job ( sorry...
On January 22 2013 06:02 Snake.69 wrote: I assume most top masters/grandmasters players cannot stand their cast at all. I personally dont watch pro league... All they do is state the obvious... Im sure they are great ppl... but maybe they should try to play a few thousand games at high masters+ level so that they can understand the decision makings, mind games, and also predict the outcome of engagements and games better.
So many times i find myself knowing exactly what a player is up to just to have to caster say something that doesnt make any sense... then the player ends up proving me right and them wrong and Im like ahhhhhhhhh fk this shit LOL.
I know its hard to be an Artosis or a Apollo. but its PRO LEAGUE. I expect the caster to explain to us how they think a player should react from scouting certain things. I want them to tell us WHY that player took that decision instead of another. I want them to know what other options he could have taken. I want them to tell us exactly what build a player is up to.
Idk maybe im too harsh, Im sure casual players can enjoy their cast, they are great guys that love their jobs.. but.... too hard for me to watch . I seriously think i could do a better job ( sorry...
The thing is that even if you don't want analytical casting you'll still have a bad time because they are the opposite of interesting/funny/enthousiastic/passionate
pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
On January 22 2013 06:11 Snusmumriken wrote: pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
I've watch SPL a few times and I've decided that even though I've already paid for my subscription, I'll only be watching some of the EG-TL matches. The main reason being Supernovamaniac's casting; it really doesn't work out in my opinion. Whiplash is fine for the most part; he gives some decent analysis, but seeing how he's supposed to be the analysis-part of the casting team, he could be talking more about the build orders and the game more often (that's the only thing I can complain about for Whiplash). Supernovamaniac on the other hand, has much more to work on than his casting partner. I understand that Supernovamaniac's native language may not be English, but given that his job is to cast the English stream for a tournament of SPL's caliber, this should not be an issue. The main things that bug me about Supernovamaniac's casting that bothers me is when he stumbles over his words, has weird intonations that would not normally be a part of a native English speaker's speech, and that he is often times at a loss for words so he take an unusually long time to say what he has to say. Another main problem that I find with Supernovamaniac's casting is that he talks over his co-caster a lot; this is a huge deal because it makes the cast appear less professional and it just makes me cringe to hear a caster cut his co-caster off. It's also a bit annoying to see Supernovamaniac attempt to do analysis of the games after the game when it's clearly Whiplash's job (seeing how Whiplash was/is? a former pro and ranked pretty high on ladder).
Don't get me wrong here, I don't hate Supernovamaniac and I'm not picking on his casting just because his native language might not be English. English is my second language as well and I know that with time and effort, these kinds of things can be fixed
SNM is Korean the last time I heard. Which is why he's fluent in the language and translates the interviews. He probably lived in the US from a young age, but probably not a young enough age (the older you are, the more your parents and hometown friends' accents and intonations get absorbed by you).
Which is why I'm happy my neighborhood had American kids.
I quite enjoy the casting duo. It can be awful at times when they talk over each other but even people like Tastosis do this occasionally. They've been casting together for such a short period of time, expecting them to perform flawlessly together is a mug's game.
To the people bashing SNM's english, I hope you realize it isn't his native language. He does a great job and has only gotten better and more fluid over the last month. Imagine how difficult your job would be if you were expected to do it in French.
Similarly, why do I get a warning for bashing Catspajamas or Incontrol for being a caster that I cannot stand listening to, but people have been free to do the same to these guys? If you don't like listening to them either give constructive feedback or mute/find another stream to watch. Simple as that.
On January 22 2013 06:02 Snake.69 wrote: I assume most top masters/grandmasters players cannot stand their cast at all. I personally dont watch pro league... All they do is state the obvious... Im sure they are great ppl... but maybe they should try to play a few thousand games at high masters+ level so that they can understand the decision makings, mind games, and also predict the outcome of engagements and games better.
So many times i find myself knowing exactly what a player is up to just to have to caster say something that doesnt make any sense... then the player ends up proving me right and them wrong and Im like ahhhhhhhhh fk this shit LOL.
I know its hard to be an Artosis or a Apollo. but its PRO LEAGUE. I expect the caster to explain to us how they think a player should react from scouting certain things. I want them to tell us WHY that player took that decision instead of another. I want them to know what other options he could have taken. I want them to tell us exactly what build a player is up to.
Idk maybe im too harsh, Im sure casual players can enjoy their cast, they are great guys that love their jobs.. but.... too hard for me to watch . I seriously think i could do a better job ( sorry...
I agree, and this is the main issue I have with the SPL casts. The English might not be the best, the atmosphere might be a little awkward, the recall of results a little lacking, but those are usually tolerable. What I really dislike is when the casters have inferior game and metagame knowledge to me, and I don't even watch/play that much. This is their job, they should really make sure that they have solid game understanding. They should also work on the other things I mentioned, but until I can actually get valuable SC2-related information from them I'm better off watching the Korean stream and casting it to myself.
Cons: Lack of caster synergy between the two of them, as mentioned by others. Rarely do they play off each other's jokes, etc. It often feels a little awkward, as if it's just two guys who happen to work together and that's it, as opposed to say, Tastosis or Bitterdam, where you can really feel an underlying relationship that isn't solely defined by their work.
Pros: Above-average knowledge of the Brood War scene. While I don't feel it's quite as complete as say, Sayle (after casting an entire season of Proleague by himself), I feel like it's a step up from the average SC2 caster who is mostly familiar with TBLS and a few others. Real-time Korean translations of interviews, commentary is also a really nice plus.
I don't play this game much, so I can't really comment on the accuracy of analysis/prediction or whatever, but I can say that improving the co-caster synergy and overall presentation/feel of the cast would go a long way towards improving the final product. If anything, I'd almost think that if they brought in a 3rd caster with a high-amount of analytical knowledge (i.e. player-caster, perhaps) the cast would get better. SNM doesn't really feel like he's 100% fit for a caster role from an oratory standpoint, but his knowledge of the Korean language and the BW scene would help augment a standard Analytic-Color caster pair.
On January 22 2013 06:37 BlazingGlory wrote: I am happy with these two. Of course they are not the best, but the amount of bashing is unreal.
Same here.
Also, it's actually good to get a break from the "usual suspects".
Really? This isn't a rookie league where we want to wait and see how the casters develop........... THIS IS PROLEAGUE the best casters with experience should be assigned to this so I can watch my favorite players from broodwar with epic casting rather then having my ears bleed
On January 22 2013 06:37 BlazingGlory wrote: I am happy with these two. Of course they are not the best, but the amount of bashing is unreal.
Same here.
Also, it's actually good to get a break from the "usual suspects".
Really? This isn't a rookie league where we want to wait and see how the casters develop........... THIS IS PROLEAGUE the best casters with experience should be assigned to this so I can watch my favorite players from broodwar with epic casting rather then having my ears bleed
Except, the best casters with the greatest experience are already tied to contracts, don't want to give up and move to Korea, or have other things they still want to be able to do like cast other tournaments. It's not like they had any other better options of people willing to move to Korea and cast for them. Not to mention, never have any other casting options available to them besides proleague. Having to cast proleague is obviously an exclusive thing. You don't have time for anything else. You can't stop and go cast a DH, MLG, etc, you have Proleague, and only proleague. Vacations? Only outside of Proleague time(which isn't that often). I don't think you realize what you have to give up to cast Proleague.
On January 22 2013 06:11 Snusmumriken wrote: pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
Makes sense. We only paid 5 dollars.
Thats interesting how everyone assumes that. I did too until I heard they are actually making more than wolf and kaldor.
On January 22 2013 06:37 BlazingGlory wrote: I am happy with these two. Of course they are not the best, but the amount of bashing is unreal.
Honestly, and I don't know if I do, but I wouldn't be surprised to speak for a lot of others; but the worst thing for me is the terrible analysis. You can say what you want about people's opinions of their accents, jokes, or whatever, but objectively, you can't deny that they have lacking analysis. SNM at least frequently calls or discusses something incorrectly, and that is the worst thing they can do imo. They can work on everything they want, and I know they're improving, but if they keep delivering flawed analysis, people will still be annoyed even if they fixed everything else.
On January 22 2013 06:11 Snusmumriken wrote: pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
Makes sense. We only paid 5 dollars.
Thats interesting how everyone assumes that. I did too until I heard they are actually making more than wolf and kaldor.
I was talking from a buyer's standpoint. SNM and Whiplash obviously get paid more than GSL casters because it's all run by Kespa, and you know they have the money.
If GSL had more years under their belts, they'd probably be paying more.
As for SNM and Whiplash's potential salaries, they probably don't deserve it as of right now but they were the only ones that actually stepped up to the challenge of going to Korea to cast Proleague.
If Kespa actually listens to the fans, they'll probably have better casters midway this year or next season (latter being more likely because they're rigid that way). If not, you'll probably have to wait a few years until SNM gets better with his grasp on the English language and game knowledge, and Whiplash with his analytical casting, and both of them with their synergy.
My favourite part of their casting is how they stay more on topic than most other casters out there. While other casters in the industry will suddenly go on tangent and talk about personal life stuff whenever there's a lull in the action, SNM/Whiplash keep the conversation on StarCraft.
That said, I still feel like there's a lot of improvement to be done on their part when it comes to casting the game. They definitely do not come close to Tastosis when those two are actually focused on the game instead of something like their favourite colour. I compare them to Tastosis specifically because that's the quality of casting knowledge and play-by-play I've come to expect out of English broadcasts coming out of Korea.
It's a lofty expectation to meet, but I think if they keep working hard and brush up more on their SC2 (SNM in particular, here), there's no reason why they can't do it. In the meantime, I'll continue watching Proleague and listening to them grow as casters.
On January 22 2013 06:11 Snusmumriken wrote: pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
Makes sense. We only paid 5 dollars.
Thats interesting how everyone assumes that. I did too until I heard they are actually making more than wolf and kaldor.
I think they definely can improve, but also that they have definely improved in this last few weeks, so I think they are on the good track. Give them a month or two before throwing them to the pit!
SNV needs to do some more play-by-play and de-awkwardize his half-jokes a bit, Whiplash needs to get better at the analysis of the game, and the duo needs more chemistry; but those problems are nothing that some focused work can not solve.
They have a really fucking difficult job that requires a lot of preparation and work, I respect them for improving (no matter what pace that's at) but I think the next step is probably for SNM to slow down a bit, and for both of them to stop forcing so many jokes(I do wish I could have heard his jokes about Bong vs Paralyze, but alas my schedule conflicts).
On January 22 2013 06:11 Snusmumriken wrote: pro league is most likely (obviously) not paying foreign casters much whatsoever as they focus heavily on the korean scene. As always you get what you pay for.
Makes sense. We only paid 5 dollars.
Thats interesting how everyone assumes that. I did too until I heard they are actually making more than wolf and kaldor.
Really? Source?
Im in Korea. Lets just say i heard it from someone here. I didnt belive it either. I know others asked for too much.
I mute the stream almost every time I watch it. They just like to say what's happening (which they sometimes get wrong somehow) and then actually just repeat that as many times as possible. A good example was Stephano vs Sola. When Sola was battling at Stephano's third, the casters said about 10 - 15 times "Sola has the roach advantage." We can SEE that, guys. Like holy shit, how many fucking times do we need to be told the same shit?
Their extended game knowledge is garbage. They don't know openers, they can't read tech or resources and they absolutely have no idea what sort of damage certain pushes do at various times of the game.
Considering this is ProLeague, aka THE stream I should be showing my friends that I want to get into SC2, this is the most abysmal shit I could have asked for. Sure they're improving, but I want legitimately good casters NOW for ProLeague. Bring these guys on in a year when they've developed enough game knowledge to get themselves out of bronze.
On January 22 2013 03:28 Jedclark wrote: It was silly to hire them. For the most professional and respected team league in SC2, you don't hire casters and say, "Oh, don't worry. They'll get to the required level in time" - they're either at that level, or they don't get the job.
I'm guessing there are no more than 3-4 qualified individuals who are willing to accept the job. What's with all these posts that assume there are waves of casters lining up to quit their job/schooling, move to the other side of the world, and get paid slightly more than minimum wage?
Doa and... others (don't recall) were going to cast PL, and then KESPA fucked them over. Doa even made a post about it because he thought they wouldn't have an English cast at all.
Afterwards, they gave the casting over to the foreign scene (EG, TL, IPL) and they did a good job at first. I wish they just continued to do this. I'll take random IPL casters over these guys.
It was so stupid that they didn't let DOA cast- honestly he would have been way better. Typical KESPA control-freaking as usual.
This is a pretty wide misconception that a lot of people have about the whole Doa situation. Doa works for OGN, therefore if Kespa wanted Doa to cast for them, they would need to contract OGN to provide the english Proleague stream. I guess there were talks to that effect, but they fell through. I don't know what took place in these talks and whether it was an issue of Kespa being too controlling, or money, or what. In any case, understand that there's a world of difference between hiring your own casters and letting another company take control over your broadcast.
I get a feeling I know more about the game than they do, and that's a bad thing. They should add expertice and drop knowledge bombs, or improve the viewing experience. It doesn't feel like they do neither of those things.
This will probably change. I disliked Gretorp when he first began to cast for NASL as well and now I love his casting. I do however feel like this casting job is a little to big to use as a learning experience.
They have a lot of potential. I don't think they are quite there as casters yet, but I think if they keep trying that in a month or two they will be good casters (one thing that I definitely agree with is quality of analysis; please, please make sure that you're calling things a little more accurately, especially when it comes to pushes or timings!). I do get frustrated sometimes with the quality of the casting right now, however.
One thing that I do really like, however (and I've seen this mentioned a couple times), is that they stay on topic. No time-wasting jokes or complete tangents like what Tasteless does sometimes - in the downtime, they talk about things like map stats, player stats, and other things that spectators might find interesting. So definite kudos for that, and keep it up!
I wish IEG as their employer did a better job at justifying to have them on site in Korea other than having them in the same timezone. They are not really in the actual studio, they are not on camera, they are not observers in the actual games, and they simply cast over what comes in on the stream feed.
If you didn't know better you'd think it's just some random commentators somewhere on the globe restreaming the Korean feed and simply casting in English over it. And then you wonder what the big deal is about. Of course, there are behind-the-scenes things that elude the common viewer, such as in person helping IEG understand the international audience better, assist with content production on site in Korea (i.e. the EG-TL interviews at the team house), and so on. But if you actually go the full mile, hire English casters, and make them move to Korea, why then would you not better include them in the production?
I have to agree that the casting itself could be better (and hence I often find myself rather watching the Korean stream). But it's not like IEG didn't reach out to more established casters. In the end, it was only SNM and Whiplash who agreed to take IEG's offer, both in terms of arrangements and salary. What IEG had to offer obviously did not succeed in attracting other more experienced commentators and thus we have to live with this and can only blame the production company.
Many have already pointed out the pros and cons of SNM and Whiplash, as well as what they could and should improve on. I agree with a lot of it, so I will not repeat it. That aside, I hope IEG as the production company will also improve on their part and do a better job.
i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
On January 22 2013 09:06 valentine1 wrote: i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
Though I mostly agree, I think there's no amount of practical improvement that SNM could do to make him a good caster. Certain people are simply not meant to do certain things, that's life. Casting requires a decent voice and likeability, both of which are exceptionally hard to "work on". Tasteless and Artosis are naturally charming individuals, so you really can't make that comparison.
Sorry, but these guys are too socially awkward to host a broadcast. They are completely unable to fill space without invoking a facepalm from 90% of the audience.
Their game knowledge may improve, but I can't see either of these guys developing enough charisma to actually host.
On January 22 2013 09:06 valentine1 wrote: i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
Though I mostly agree, I think there's no amount of practical improvement that SNM could do to make him a good caster. Certain people are simply not meant to do certain things, that's life. Casting requires a decent voice and likeability, both of which are exceptionally hard to "work on". Tasteless and Artosis are naturally charming individuals, so you really can't make that comparison.
perhaps you're right, i can easily concede that tastless and artosis are naturally charming! but can't we all remember back when these threads were calling for khaldor's head because of his 'accent' and 'terrible english?' is it even the same khaldor today that started in code a all those seasons ago? i thought he was pretty funny back then and a decent caster, but he's 100% legit awesome now. maybe you'll argue that he's naturally charismatic as well, and maybe you're right. i don't know the answer, but tremendous transformations do occur, and khaldor was pretty static when he started. i'm gonna wait and see what happens!
On January 22 2013 09:06 valentine1 wrote: i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
Though I mostly agree, I think there's no amount of practical improvement that SNM could do to make him a good caster. Certain people are simply not meant to do certain things, that's life. Casting requires a decent voice and likeability, both of which are exceptionally hard to "work on". Tasteless and Artosis are naturally charming individuals, so you really can't make that comparison.
perhaps you're right, i can easily concede that tastless and artosis are naturally charming! but can't we all remember back when these threads were calling for khaldor's head because of his 'accent' and 'terrible english?' is it even the same khaldor today that started in code a all those seasons ago? i thought he was pretty funny back then and a decent caster, but he's 100% legit awesome now. maybe you'll argue that he's naturally charismatic as well, and maybe you're right. i don't know the answer, but tremendous transformations do occur, and khaldor was pretty static when he started. i'm gonna wait and see what happens!
Oh, that's only because Khaldor was paired up with moletrap. Once he got constantly paired with Wolf, we started seeing the true Khaldor in action.
one thing I Didnt see comented is that kespa probably only gets foreign money with twitch subscripcions,therefore they had to get cheap casters to make profit, dont expect to see better castes anytime soon
On January 22 2013 09:06 valentine1 wrote: i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
Though I mostly agree, I think there's no amount of practical improvement that SNM could do to make him a good caster. Certain people are simply not meant to do certain things, that's life. Casting requires a decent voice and likeability, both of which are exceptionally hard to "work on". Tasteless and Artosis are naturally charming individuals, so you really can't make that comparison.
perhaps you're right, i can easily concede that tastless and artosis are naturally charming! but can't we all remember back when these threads were calling for khaldor's head because of his 'accent' and 'terrible english?' is it even the same khaldor today that started in code a all those seasons ago? i thought he was pretty funny back then and a decent caster, but he's 100% legit awesome now. maybe you'll argue that he's naturally charismatic as well, and maybe you're right. i don't know the answer, but tremendous transformations do occur, and khaldor was pretty static when he started. i'm gonna wait and see what happens!
Khaldor may have taken some criticism when he started doing GSL, but he also had a lot of staunch fans by that time (myself included). That natural charisma you're talking about was pretty apparent... I seem to remember listening to him cast in German (which I don't understand at all) just because he had such good energy.
Not that I disagree with your overall point, I personally hope that SNM and Whiplash improve, and I don't think we're going to have much choice but to give them the time. It would be different if they were pretending it was a polished product and charging accordingly, but with a $5 price-tag, what can you really say.
I've never been one to criticize casters. The community is WAY too hard on them and I would never consider doing it because people are just far too critical. You can't even sneeze, or repeat a word twice, or stutter, or call a player the wrong name even ONCE or people will never forget. Esports is a bunch of esoteric nerdy asshats. All that being said, I can't believe TL doesn't have someone better doing this. I'm sorry but these guys are amature. There were no other up and coming casters that weren't more deserving of the exposure to 10k + viewers a night? I find that hard to believe. I personally find the ISTL guys and CSL guys far more enjoyable.
GL and I certainly hope they find their niche in this shitty community.
On January 22 2013 09:06 valentine1 wrote: i've been watching GSL since open season 1, and you'd have to be crazy not to see the improvement that tasteless and artosis have made over that time. in addition, it's not just the fact that the game was new then and no-one really knew what was going on (eg: fruitdealer fast expanding, omg), it's that they put in a lot of time and effort into becoming better.
that's what these two are doing. i have paid my cash for proleague and am enjoying their casts. sure, they're not as good as tastosis and wolfdor, but if you honestly expect them to be 'the best' because 'its proleague' then you've got unrealistic expectations. 2012-2013 season 1 has been running for nearly two months and the total games played is at my current estimate, less than open season 1 and 2 combined with english casts. give them time, encourage them, because if you whine hard enough then maybe you'll get yourself an even worse replacement(s) for you all to whine about all over again.
be constructive, please. be constructive without being condeming. it's the only way they'll improve. i'm probably just wasting my breath typing all this, but i feel that sometimes TL isn't about coming together to share knowledge, moreso about trying to make others feel bad and assert nerd superiority. how sad.
Though I mostly agree, I think there's no amount of practical improvement that SNM could do to make him a good caster. Certain people are simply not meant to do certain things, that's life. Casting requires a decent voice and likeability, both of which are exceptionally hard to "work on". Tasteless and Artosis are naturally charming individuals, so you really can't make that comparison.
perhaps you're right, i can easily concede that tastless and artosis are naturally charming! but can't we all remember back when these threads were calling for khaldor's head because of his 'accent' and 'terrible english?' is it even the same khaldor today that started in code a all those seasons ago? i thought he was pretty funny back then and a decent caster, but he's 100% legit awesome now. maybe you'll argue that he's naturally charismatic as well, and maybe you're right. i don't know the answer, but tremendous transformations do occur, and khaldor was pretty static when he started. i'm gonna wait and see what happens!
Oh, that's only because Khaldor was paired up with moletrap. Once he got constantly paired with Wolf, we started seeing the true Khaldor in action.
Taking the flame bait, tbh I really disliked Wofldor until Season 5 last year. Khaldor just seemed to always talk over Wolf (which I guess is funny considering how Moletrap used to talk over Khaldor), and it made the games not as interesting as they could have been. After they just powered through so many games towards the end of last year, I felt that they both really improved in their game knowledge and also team chemistry. Hopefully we get to see similar improvement from these two. Just diligently studying the game, and working on speaking skills.
On January 22 2013 11:04 Berceno wrote: one thing I Didnt see comented is that kespa probably only gets foreign money with twitch subscripcions,therefore they had to get cheap casters to make profit, dont expect to see better castes anytime soon
...They get no money because subscription is only 5$.
Subscription is only 5$ because they didn't take the time to make a proper portal. Their content is terrible, the stream doesn't have a production team for the english stream, it's impossible to watch vods without getting spoiled, their casters are terrible.
Usually in business you invest to have a good product and then people pay for it. They make an english website -> have an english production with good casters -> people pay to watch vods -> ??? -> profit.
On January 22 2013 12:02 Dontkillme wrote: Gotta love TL, disliking something they get for free. You know that there is a free korean stream site on Naver and some other site.
I am sincerely sorry for trying to help improve casters who clearly need work in an effort to both increase the validity of their cast, the enjoyment that people get (see: more will watch and kespa gets more money), and decrease the amount of hate that SNM and whiplash get. I am sorry if that offends you.
In all honesty, while the people who are mindlessly caster bashing are out there, this post doesn't really make sense in a thread entitled "Appreciation/(constructive is implied) criticism."
Is there something wrong with trying to improve SPL, or should we just let SNM and whiplash go through it themselves, and figure everything out, just because we don't pay (5$ per year is virtually free) like we do for GSL? I don't see the problem with trying to help them improve, and of course you're allowed to dislike something even if it's free.
If you want to say a "if you dislike it, then don't watch" then it's a lose-lose. Kespa loses viewers, SNM/Whiplash lose the opportunity for feedback, and viewers lose content. Controlled criticism is a much better option, and that's what the (majority of) thread is about.
I wanted to add this poll because I am curious. Whenever I could grab games of my favorite BW players to watch I was ecstatic and it felt amazing to watch epic games. However because I am bias (as I loved BW) I find it incredibly unacceptable to have this level of commentary (bad) for a legendary league. It really takes away from the epic feeling of the league even though we are being graced by having an English commentary stream provided. If this was an up and coming league or even an indie league by random community members then sure I could accept this level of commentary but I really find it unacceptable to have this commentary for this league (sorry for being redundant).
I've only ever unmuted the stream once to see what all the bitching was about. I found it was accurate. I don't see these two ever being the next big casters, but if they could just improve from mediocre to tolerable, I think they'd see a more wide-acceptance. They seem to just have literally no dynamic whatsoever (which I'm aware is VERY difficult to achieve as Wheat has told us, but still, work on it).
SNM, Whiplash, you two are doing a fine job, and you deserve our support. I'm sorry this
I think the folks posting in this thread are demanding and impatient. They do not care for development or improvement, they simply demand perfection. You can't build Rome in a day.
You Two have an amazing opportunity and deserve our support. You are easy targets because they are new. Thank you for risking your young lives to bring this opportunity to us.
If you guys are reading this, fuck the haters. Haters hate. They are going to hate. Your job is to do the best you can with the tools and experience you have. Be patient and stalwart because you're doing fine. All public figures get picked on, especially rising figures. Leave the negativity on the forums and love much. Thank you for all that you do.
On January 22 2013 13:06 Olex wrote: I think the folks posting in this thread are demanding and impatient. They do not care for development or improvement, they simply demand perfection. You can't build Rome in a day.
In general, I don't think people expected the casting to start out at such a low quality. It makes sense if it's a less-prominent league, but people expected more out of PL and its casters.
They actually take away from the league (imo). I usually have the stream muted because of them. I would prefer almost any other caster.
The fact the one dude speaks Korean is ok (I guess), but the there isn't much he has to translate and whenever he is the other dude is always like, "LOL, I don't speak Korean, I am going to take a piss." We really didn't need to know that information, especially in a time you shouldn't be talking anyways...
On January 22 2013 13:06 Olex wrote: SNM, Whiplash, you two are doing a fine job, and you deserve our support. I'm sorry this
I think the folks posting in this thread are demanding and impatient. They do not care for development or improvement, they simply demand perfection. You can't build Rome in a day.
You Two have an amazing opportunity and deserve our support. You are easy targets because they are new. Thank you for risking your young lives to bring this opportunity to us.
If you guys are reading this, fuck the haters. Haters hate. They are going to hate. Your job is to do the best you can with the tools and experience you have. Be patient and stalwart because you're doing fine. All public figures get picked on, especially rising figures. Leave the negativity on the forums and love much. Thank you for all that you do.
This "opportunity" is available since nearly a decade. I can't watch korean SPL stream correctly now, I have to stick with this poor english stream if I want to watch the games live, which I really prefer to. At least I can watch every single 720p korean vods 15 mins after the games, but I miss the YouTube korean stream (It doesn't work for me and many others this season).
On January 22 2013 13:06 Olex wrote: SNM, Whiplash, you two are doing a fine job, and you deserve our support. I'm sorry this
I think the folks posting in this thread are demanding and impatient. They do not care for development or improvement, they simply demand perfection. You can't build Rome in a day.
You Two have an amazing opportunity and deserve our support. You are easy targets because they are new. Thank you for risking your young lives to bring this opportunity to us.
If you guys are reading this, fuck the haters. Haters hate. They are going to hate. Your job is to do the best you can with the tools and experience you have. Be patient and stalwart because you're doing fine. All public figures get picked on, especially rising figures. Leave the negativity on the forums and love much. Thank you for all that you do.
Haters will hate, and they're stupid for doing so, but SNM and whiplash would be silly not to scan this thread, or elsewhere, for tips on what they should be doing to improve. Often the best help comes from people who are watching you play (cast) and making suggestions based on what they see.
It's irrational to hate blindly and say they'll never ever be successful, but it's equally irrational to say "y'all are doing great, keep it up!" and cushion/baby them when we should be middle grounding it and saying "y'all are improving, but work still needs to be done."
Personally, I'll always tune in to proleague as long as I get a sense they're trying. If that stops, or they stop improving and it seems like they just don't care, I can always mute and listen to nathanias.
Few things. #1 Stay focus on the game, I lose interest very fast when you start talking about random stuff that isnt related to the game. This include random story or just random build order you could do in that map that doesnt apply to the current match. I know some other caster will do this to entertain but the community need to know the personality of the caster before they do so.
#2 Try to be more exciting. Give you an example, LD from Dota2. To me, he is the best caster in esports. I dont really watch dota2 but the casting he did at the international 2 was sick.
#3 Split your role better to avoid talking over each other, like one talk more about the micro (battle) and other one talk more about the macro (strat, meta, play style) between battle.
I personally had no problem with them from the start, not saying they were good though. Like someone mentioned prior it was nice not having the standard combos, had enough tasteless "uhsss" for a lifetime. I feel like they have literally 0 chemistry.
Barely filtered vitriol scribbled anonymously is 20/80 constructive, by the looks of it.
On January 22 2013 14:55 Alryk wrote: Personally, I'll always tune in to proleague as long as I get a sense they're trying. If that stops, or they stop improving and it seems like they just don't care, I can always mute and listen to nathanias.
I frankly think they just need more time and experience. They haven't been on the job all that long. Go back to season 1-3 GOMTV Tastosis casts, they were still a bit rough, and that was from 2 well known guys who had a ton of bw playing and casting experience, years worth. These are just 2 guys who are relatively new to the scene and new to being heard by several thousand, cut them a break a bit. Also not having them as in game observers can severely hamper the quality of the casting.
I dont think they are bad at all. I like Whiplash, sometimes his casting is pretty good. SNM does need some work on speaking clearer and his accent (heavy accent). I also think he doesn't play a big role in the duo. Whiplash is normally the one calling whats going on, and analyzing. While SNM kinda hovers around in the background not doing much but agreeing with Whiplash.
I do like the little facts they throw around while a match is getting setup. For example map stats, rivalries, and other little tidbits here and there about BW history.
I think they will get better at it as time goes on though. They are improving imo.
I like their work. I think their jokes could use some polishing, but that's about it. I think, in dealing with KeSPA, they probably don't get the best of help from the Korean end of broadcasting, so they're doing fine with their commentary and analysis. I agree with those who are reminding us of Tastosis when SC2 was still new...they have come a long way, with their joke quality. A lot of it was trial and error.
Personally, the more professional a commentator is, the more I enjoy him (or her). I like the way that NBA, NFL, and NHL commentators speak about their respective games...but they have the big edge that they're in their 40s or older, they are backed by very experienced broadcasting companies, and they have been in the sports industry for longer than SC1 has existed (much less BW or SC2). So it's not really fair to expect most commentators for SC2 to be up to par with pro sports commentators; but it's a nice thing for which they could strive. My $.02.
Suffice to say, I think they're doing a good job with calling the games and talking about strategies. Some things they probably just don't know because they don't talk to the players directly, and they don't have all the possible facts due to the current setup. But they're doing just fine.
I don't have a problem with Whiplash, but SNM is really bad imo. Saying stuff like "if Stork gets one more kill, it's official he's back" just irks me ... his play wasn't spectacular by any means vs Fantasy or S2 (didn't see vs Sacsri). Sure, he won, and that's what counts, but in no way did he look solid or like he could constantly beat people down.
These comments are really what get me - the massive exaggerations. Stop. Please stop.
On January 22 2013 16:47 FabledIntegral wrote: I don't have a problem with Whiplash, but SNM is really bad imo. Saying stuff like "if Stork gets one more kill, it's official he's back" just irks me ... his play wasn't spectacular by any means vs Fantasy or S2 (didn't see vs Sacsri). Sure, he won, and that's what counts, but in no way did he look solid or like he could constantly beat people down.
These comments are really what get me - the massive exaggerations. Stop. Please stop.
I think the same way. Whiplash does not say these nonsense comments. SNM is also a bit harder to understand for me (Im no native speaker), it always seems like his tongue is a bit numb.
I am sorry S&M, but you just butchered the Rain vs. Roro game just now. It was horrible. I am also starting to get sick of hearing "on top of that", "behind that", "however", etc... being wrongly used.
Both S&M and Whiplash do not have enough game knowledge to provide detailed casting of what is actually going on. Not only do they struggle to figure out the underlying strategies and general direction of the game, they struggle to distinguish clearly all of the actions that are happening before their eyes. Their descriptions of what happens during the game, or during a battle, are their own reactions and some observations loosely mashed together.
On January 22 2013 18:05 cywinr wrote: I am sorry S&M, but you just butchered the Rain vs. Roro game just now. It was horrible. I am also starting to get sick of hearing "on top of that", "behind that", "however", etc... being wrongly used.
Both S&M and Whiplash do not have enough game knowledge to provide detailed casting of what is actually going on. Not only do they struggle to figure out the underlying strategies and general direction of the game, they struggle to distinguish clearly all of the actions that are happening before their eyes. Their descriptions of what happens during the game, or during a battle, are their own reactions and some observations loosely mashed together.
There is a lot to work on...
this, also he keeps saying things are "in a big trouble" over, and over, and over...
While they're at it, why not let them cast the Superbowl too! Oh, that's right, something that prestigeous is reserved for those with experience and popularity. Perhaps the 14% approval rating says something. Why not let them gain experience casting something no one watches until they are good enough where they deserve to cast Pro League. Whiplash seems like he will reach that potential someday. Not so sure about SNM. Can you imagine 2 amateur guys with no broadcast experience casting an English Premier League game or an NFL game for ESPN? Of course you can't and that's why that company is successful. Even if it's 2 former pros. Let's take Scottie Pippen and Dikembe Mutombo(since even non native English speakers get hired). How interesting would that broadcast actually be without someone with some broadcast experience and charisma? How much can you really analyze a game and how neccessary is that at the cost of having a true communicator to lead the broadcast?
When you watch the Superbowl next Sunday, consider the broadcasters. How much energy they have as well as charisma and chemistry. Also note that they offer analysis and insight, but notice it isn't neccessarily THAT MUCH. Some times it's just obvious stuff pointed out in a charismatic way (John Madden). They key is they don't try to stretch themselves by taking chances and say something WRONG. That's called a mistake!
The broadcasting of Starcraft 2 clearly took a step back in the wrong direction with this hire after all the improvements that have happened over the last 2-years. Hopefully this will be a step back for 2 steps forward, but I don't expect that if things continue with the personnel in the saddle right now.
Please note, I don't blame Whiplash and SNM, they did what anyone would have done and they're obviously trying. But to think they wouldn't receive as much negative feedback as they've received would be naive. To those that are in that 14%, I understand where you are coming from, but also imagine how enjoyable this would be to watch if a top caster was doing this instead of these Rookies.
This thread is not going to do anything if people just keep bitching and not giving any form of concrete detail. The easiest way to do so is to just use the list BBCode. I.E. <list> then add as many bullets as needed <*>. Not trying to back seat mod, but I think saying something like:
I think Whiplash is doing OK, but he needs to focus on the game (or at least the story line) and stop getting off track as much. I also think that he has issues with SNM concerning their fluidity as partners, so they should practice casting in their offtime to replays.
I think SNM is struggling, in order to remedy that, he should practice a bit more. Along with that, he should stop making side comments to "liven up" the surrounding story, let Whiplash do that, and have SNM focus on the micro/macro in game. Have SNM do analysis while Whiplash does some analysis, and have whiplash take a dominant role in color commentary.
Don't make jokes outside of the game until you are not in game. Don't be Tastosis, you will never be Tastosis. In fact, though you may become as loved as a casting duo later on, for right now I'd love it if the jokes stayed when you guys are waiting on the game to start rather than in the game.
I enjoy the casting, and I don't see why people consider them amatuers when I've seen significantly worse out of other leagues and in other video games. I think if people followed this method, SNM and Whiplash could look through here without people jumping down their throats as much. Editors regularly give 10% positive feedback and 90% negative feedback, I think that if we were to do that, SNM and Whiplash could come in here and see what they are doing RIGHT and what they are doing WRONG.
Much love guys, I enjoy SPL very much, and I like your casting quite a bit, though I realize (and so do you two) that it can improve .
On January 23 2013 08:47 Wrangler wrote: While they're at it, why not let them cast the Superbowl too! Oh, that's right, something that prestigeous is reserved for those with experience and popularity. Perhaps the 14% approval rating says something. Why not let them gain experience casting something no one watches until they are good enough where they deserve to cast Pro League. Whiplash seems like he will reach that potential someday. Not so sure about SNM. Can you imagine 2 amateur guys with no broadcast experience casting an English Premier League game or an NFL game for ESPN? Of course you can't and that's why that company is successful. Even if it's 2 former pros. Let's take Scottie Pippen and Dikembe Mutombo(since even non native English speakers get hired). How interesting would that broadcast actually be without someone with some broadcast experience and charisma? How much can you really analyze a game and how neccessary is that at the cost of having a true communicator to lead the broadcast?
When you watch the Superbowl next Sunday, consider the broadcasters. How much energy they have as well as charisma and chemistry. Also note that they offer analysis and insight, but notice it isn't neccessarily THAT MUCH. Some times it's just obvious stuff pointed out in a charismatic way (John Madden). They key is they don't try to stretch themselves by taking chances and say something WRONG. That's called a mistake!
The broadcasting of Starcraft 2 clearly took a step back in the wrong direction with this hire after all the improvements that have happened over the last 2-years. Hopefully this will be a step back for 2 steps forward, but I don't expect that if things continue with the personnel in the saddle right now.
Please note, I don't blame Whiplash and SNM, they did what anyone would have done and they're obviously trying. But to think they wouldn't receive as much negative feedback as they've received would be naive. To those that are in that 14%, I understand where you are coming from, but also imagine how enjoyable this would be to watch if a top caster was doing this instead of these Rookies.
In fairness, people complain all the time about sports commentators too.
It's worth noting that part of the problem is that Proleague is a Korean event, broadcast for the international audience. Comparing American commentators for Americans sports is hardly a fair comparison. What you would want to ask is whether, say, the French broadcast and commentary of the Superbowl is excellent as well.
On January 23 2013 09:04 docvoc wrote: This thread is not going to do anything if people just keep bitching and not giving any form of concrete detail. The easiest way to do so is to just use the list BBCode. I.E. <list> then add as many bullets as needed <*>. Not trying to back seat mod, but I think saying something like:
I think Whiplash is doing OK, but he needs to focus on the game (or at least the story line) and stop getting off track as much. I also think that he has issues with SNM concerning their fluidity as partners, so they should practice casting in their offtime to replays.
I think SNM is struggling, in order to remedy that, he should practice a bit more. Along with that, he should stop making side comments to "liven up" the surrounding story, let Whiplash do that, and have SNM focus on the micro/macro in game. Have SNM do analysis while Whiplash does some analysis, and have whiplash take a dominant role in color commentary.
Don't make jokes outside of the game until you are not in game. Don't be Tastosis, you will never be Tastosis. In fact, though you may become as loved as a casting duo later on, for right now I'd love it if the jokes stayed when you guys are waiting on the game to start rather than in the game.
I enjoy the casting, and I don't see why people consider them amatuers when I've seen significantly worse out of other leagues and in other video games. I think if people followed this method, SNM and Whiplash could look through here without people jumping down their throats as much. Editors regularly give 10% positive feedback and 90% negative feedback, I think that if we were to do that, SNM and Whiplash could come in here and see what they are doing RIGHT and what they are doing WRONG.
Much love guys, I enjoy SPL very much, and I like your casting quite a bit, though I realize (and so do you two) that it can improve .
I disagree with everything you said except for the fact that SNM is struggling. He is solely responsible for me using the Korean stream instead. My feedback is that if you need people telling you how to do your job, then you are not qualified for it and should improve quickly or step aside before you get fired.
On January 23 2013 09:04 docvoc wrote: This thread is not going to do anything if people just keep bitching and not giving any form of concrete detail. The easiest way to do so is to just use the list BBCode. I.E. <list> then add as many bullets as needed <*>. Not trying to back seat mod, but I think saying something like:
I think Whiplash is doing OK, but he needs to focus on the game (or at least the story line) and stop getting off track as much. I also think that he has issues with SNM concerning their fluidity as partners, so they should practice casting in their offtime to replays.
I think SNM is struggling, in order to remedy that, he should practice a bit more. Along with that, he should stop making side comments to "liven up" the surrounding story, let Whiplash do that, and have SNM focus on the micro/macro in game. Have SNM do analysis while Whiplash does some analysis, and have whiplash take a dominant role in color commentary.
Don't make jokes outside of the game until you are not in game. Don't be Tastosis, you will never be Tastosis. In fact, though you may become as loved as a casting duo later on, for right now I'd love it if the jokes stayed when you guys are waiting on the game to start rather than in the game.
I enjoy the casting, and I don't see why people consider them amatuers when I've seen significantly worse out of other leagues and in other video games. I think if people followed this method, SNM and Whiplash could look through here without people jumping down their throats as much. Editors regularly give 10% positive feedback and 90% negative feedback, I think that if we were to do that, SNM and Whiplash could come in here and see what they are doing RIGHT and what they are doing WRONG.
Much love guys, I enjoy SPL very much, and I like your casting quite a bit, though I realize (and so do you two) that it can improve .
I disagree with everything you said except for the fact that SNM is struggling. He is solely responsible for me using the Korean stream instead. My feedback is that if you need people telling you how to do your job, then you are not qualified for it and should improve quickly or step aside before you get fired.
Sheesh, I hope you're never a manager. You asking complete casters to emerge like Athena from the head of Zeus. It's an iterative process and both they and the casting profession as a whole will get better.
Whiplash may one day be a good caster but currently its hard to gauge how good/bad he is when his co-caster is so terrible. SNM will never be a good caster. He doesn't have the personality, voice or charisma for the job of a caster. He does however do a good job at translating when he is able to hear the Koreans talk (which has a lot of value). I honestly wouldn't have subscribed to SPL if I knew that SNM and whiplash were casting. I would of just watched the Korean stream and listen to Nathanias cast.
On January 23 2013 09:04 docvoc wrote: This thread is not going to do anything if people just keep bitching and not giving any form of concrete detail. The easiest way to do so is to just use the list BBCode. I.E. <list> then add as many bullets as needed <*>. Not trying to back seat mod, but I think saying something like:
I think Whiplash is doing OK, but he needs to focus on the game (or at least the story line) and stop getting off track as much. I also think that he has issues with SNM concerning their fluidity as partners, so they should practice casting in their offtime to replays.
I think SNM is struggling, in order to remedy that, he should practice a bit more. Along with that, he should stop making side comments to "liven up" the surrounding story, let Whiplash do that, and have SNM focus on the micro/macro in game. Have SNM do analysis while Whiplash does some analysis, and have whiplash take a dominant role in color commentary.
Don't make jokes outside of the game until you are not in game. Don't be Tastosis, you will never be Tastosis. In fact, though you may become as loved as a casting duo later on, for right now I'd love it if the jokes stayed when you guys are waiting on the game to start rather than in the game.
I enjoy the casting, and I don't see why people consider them amatuers when I've seen significantly worse out of other leagues and in other video games. I think if people followed this method, SNM and Whiplash could look through here without people jumping down their throats as much. Editors regularly give 10% positive feedback and 90% negative feedback, I think that if we were to do that, SNM and Whiplash could come in here and see what they are doing RIGHT and what they are doing WRONG.
Much love guys, I enjoy SPL very much, and I like your casting quite a bit, though I realize (and so do you two) that it can improve .
I disagree with everything you said except for the fact that SNM is struggling. He is solely responsible for me using the Korean stream instead. My feedback is that if you need people telling you how to do your job, then you are not qualified for it and should improve quickly or step aside before you get fired.
Sheesh, I hope you're never a manager. You asking complete casters to emerge like Athena from the head of Zeus. It's an iterative process and both they and the casting profession as a whole will get better.
Nah man, my expectations for a 'good' caster are pretty low: don't irritate the shit out of me. Whiplash is completely fine imo
On January 23 2013 09:04 docvoc wrote: This thread is not going to do anything if people just keep bitching and not giving any form of concrete detail. The easiest way to do so is to just use the list BBCode. I.E. <list> then add as many bullets as needed <*>. Not trying to back seat mod, but I think saying something like:
I think Whiplash is doing OK, but he needs to focus on the game (or at least the story line) and stop getting off track as much. I also think that he has issues with SNM concerning their fluidity as partners, so they should practice casting in their offtime to replays.
I think SNM is struggling, in order to remedy that, he should practice a bit more. Along with that, he should stop making side comments to "liven up" the surrounding story, let Whiplash do that, and have SNM focus on the micro/macro in game. Have SNM do analysis while Whiplash does some analysis, and have whiplash take a dominant role in color commentary.
Don't make jokes outside of the game until you are not in game. Don't be Tastosis, you will never be Tastosis. In fact, though you may become as loved as a casting duo later on, for right now I'd love it if the jokes stayed when you guys are waiting on the game to start rather than in the game.
I enjoy the casting, and I don't see why people consider them amatuers when I've seen significantly worse out of other leagues and in other video games. I think if people followed this method, SNM and Whiplash could look through here without people jumping down their throats as much. Editors regularly give 10% positive feedback and 90% negative feedback, I think that if we were to do that, SNM and Whiplash could come in here and see what they are doing RIGHT and what they are doing WRONG.
Much love guys, I enjoy SPL very much, and I like your casting quite a bit, though I realize (and so do you two) that it can improve .
I disagree with everything you said except for the fact that SNM is struggling. He is solely responsible for me using the Korean stream instead. My feedback is that if you need people telling you how to do your job, then you are not qualified for it and should improve quickly or step aside before you get fired.
Sheesh, I hope you're never a manager. You asking complete casters to emerge like Athena from the head of Zeus. It's an iterative process and both they and the casting profession as a whole will get better.
Nah man, my expectations for a 'good' caster are pretty low: don't irritate the shit out of me. Whiplash is completely fine imo
On January 23 2013 09:04 docvoc wrote:
I think Whiplash is doing OK
On January 23 2013 09:12 Sluggy wrote:
I disagree with everything you said except for the fact that SNM is struggling.
Personally I like the fact that these casters sometimes derail into other topics; Artosis and Tasteless combo, and Wolf and Kahldor combo both do these things and I really enjoy their differences in personalities when their interests surface. Whiplash and Supernovamanic are bringing up off topic comments to fill in the downtime of standard game play. I think they should be commended for their interesting comments at least.
Secondly, I think out of all the casting duos out there, Whiplash and Supernovamanic understand Korean the best and therefore are at a big advantage when it comes to information provided to the viewers about the official rulings and such. Over the course of SPL there has been many instances where their knowledge of Korean has provided grateful information to the foreign viewers. If their Korean improves further, they can converse with the Kespa players much more and provide interesting triva which foreigners would otherwise be oblivious towards.
I hope Whiplash and Supernovamanic continue with their castings of SPL, they are doing really well considering their short partnership ( I don't know much about them besides the fact that Supernovamanic use to be a mod on many twitch chat rooms). The awkwardness in their comments sometimes shows their asynchronous combination; but their nerds, who hasn't been awkward towards even their close friends.
Whiplash and Supernovamanic, you're both doing a good job. gl hf
I just want to say that I really do not enjoy the casting because of 1 thing only: the accent of SNM. I can't stand it, and since it's an English cast I really expect a very good English speaker who can pronounce and communicate clearly.
For example, let's look at news anchor, I have never seen a morning news with someone who can't even pronounce the words clearly and slur when he needs to speak fast. Imagine SNM and WHIPLASH doing the morning news on fox. Lol. Professionalism is everything. If Proleague wants to be taken seriously then they need STANDARD.
But honestly, I think Kespa just don't care about English audience.
On January 23 2013 15:41 Fearest wrote: I just want to say that I really do not enjoy the casting because of 1 thing only: the accent of SNM. I can't stand it, and since it's an English cast I really expect a very good English speaker who can pronounce and communicate clearly.
For example, let's look at news anchor, I have never seen a morning news with someone who can't even pronounce the words clearly and slur when he needs to speak fast. Imagine SNM and WHIPLASH doing the morning news on fox. Lol. Professionalism is everything. If Proleague wants to be taken seriously then they need STANDARD.
But honestly, I think Kespa just don't care about English audience.
Investing in a new audience is a daunting task, so they will choose to hire cheaper alternatives to test the waters. I'd say personally the feedback they'll get in terms of numbers would be justifiable in terms of market value, which may in turn allow them to invest more into the foreign audience so we might get better casters and stream quality in the future. However, with the emergence of LoL, I really feel like they wont spend that much more resources on SC2 streams, when they're probably going to earn 10x as much working on LoL broadcasts.
Like the guy above me said, I don't think PL cares about the english cast at all. They just barely managed to pull together the bare minimum - two guys that can speak English.
On January 23 2013 15:41 Fearest wrote: I just want to say that I really do not enjoy the casting because of 1 thing only: the accent of SNM. I can't stand it, and since it's an English cast I really expect a very good English speaker who can pronounce and communicate clearly.
For example, let's look at news anchor, I have never seen a morning news with someone who can't even pronounce the words clearly and slur when he needs to speak fast. Imagine SNM and WHIPLASH doing the morning news on fox. Lol. Professionalism is everything. If Proleague wants to be taken seriously then they need STANDARD.
But honestly, I think Kespa just don't care about English audience.
Rotterdam sometimes gets his tongue twisted during casts, but he still remains a great caster.
U can't even split them. They cast together. Last night, they said something was going to happen and they were dead wrong like usual (as the roaches were moving out they were discussing the mistakes the zerg player was making...he won with a timing less than a minute later--pretty humorous i know, but discouraging.
still grade them a c- if not based purely on proleague itself
Just to say something positive about SNM, I do like the Korean to English translations he does. I think if he improved his English a bit it would make a big difference.
On January 23 2013 15:54 yyfpulls wrote: Like the guy above me said, I don't think PL cares about the english cast at all. They just barely managed to pull together the bare minimum - two guys that can speak English.
Maybe they were misrepresented on their resumes/interviews? SNM - "I've been casting BW for a while now and have a pretty solid following (which by BW numbers, he kind of did) ANNNDDDDD I can translate from Korean to English on top of that."
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "That sounds great! We could use a caster with a good following and knows our players. And you accept what we're offering you?! You're hired!!!!!"
Whiplash - "I was a SC2 pro early on and ran pretty deep at a couple MLGs. I was a grandmaster on the US ladder"
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "Ran deep in MLG eh? Those are pretty tough from what I hear, AND you're grandmaster level? Shit, we could use you for analysis. Plus you accept what we're offering you! You're hired!!!!"
I'm annoyed by the caster bashing more than their casting. Whiplash seems to somewhat know what's going on overall. SNM either has to step up his knowledge or his play by play casting. They've just been casting together for a short time, give them some time to grow into their roles.
On January 23 2013 15:54 yyfpulls wrote: Like the guy above me said, I don't think PL cares about the english cast at all. They just barely managed to pull together the bare minimum - two guys that can speak English.
Maybe they were misrepresented on their resumes/interviews? SNM - "I've been casting BW for a while now and have a pretty solid following (which by BW numbers, he kind of did) ANNNDDDDD I can translate from Korean to English on top of that."
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "That sounds great! We could use a caster with a good following and knows our players. And you accept what we're offering you?! You're hired!!!!!"
Whiplash - "I was a SC2 pro early on and ran pretty deep at a couple MLGs. I was a grandmaster on the US ladder"
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "Ran deep in MLG eh? Those are pretty tough from what I hear, AND you're grandmaster level? Shit, we could use you for analysis. Plus you accept what we're offering you! You're hired!!!!"
I agree with (what I'm seeing the majority of people are saying, that Whiplash is doing a better job thus far than SNM. There's definitely room for improvement for the them both, and I hope that they will take any criticism in a constructive manner in order to make the viewing experience more enjoyable.
At this stage in the game there's basically no excuse for having such shallow insight. People watch these casts to either be entertained or to learn more about the game and these casters aren't doing either.
I don't understand the hate directed specifically at SNM. They're a terrible casting duo, but I'd say they're about equally terrible. SNM has a little more trouble coming up with coherent sentences (although both fumble their lines constantly) and his accent is kinda weird but whatever.
There are moments where you can see they are improving, though, and I think it will be fine towards the end of the season/playoffs (if proleague keeps them for that long).
I still think moletrap is "over-hated". Doa would have been good but there was some controversial issue with something he said, I think, I'd like to hear/read it again if someone will post a link for me. (Apparently I don't care enough to search right now) :Þ
I just hope we have better casters next season, that's the main thing. Please though, people, please don't attack the people personally. The main gripe for me is that there are definitely more deserving and suitable people out there who aren't tied up in other casting jobs regularly (so not necessarily 'big' names).
Unfortunately these two don't have the sort of personality needed to cover their technical casting (there's nothing wrong with this, most people don't. Simple as that). They either need to significantly improve their game knowledge, and start to push that angle while casting the matches, or they just need to flat out be replaced. Wouldn't care if this were some amateur league, but it's fucking SPL...
They lack of charisma (the way they speak is very boring) and game knowledge (misjudging even simple situations). They need to improve in at least one part immensely. It's sad to say, but they have absolutely nothing going for them right now.
just because tastelss is loved by many sc 2 fans that doesnt mean he is a good caster. with 'um (x1000 i hear him say -___- so fucking annoying, be professinal and learn2speak)...duhhh...i think...derrrrrrrrr....its gg guys (wtf? then, why the fuck am I watching this game right now....u took away my excitement)' i thought i was hearing some retard trying to cast sc 2 matches. only because artosis' covers the details of the games, tasteless gets away with his shitty comments and casting.
anyways back to the topic, SNM and whiplash are pretty decent IMO. yea SNM kinda bullshit sometimes, but give that guy some breaks, i think he will be lot better soon.
as for whiplash, he needs to minimize his lil mistakes, such as miscalling names of the player, color of the players, or if TvZ or TvP -___-;;;; lol. if he can fix his minor mistakes, he will be a great caster.
PLUS, SNM needs to say 'AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH' ...idk why he stopped...
On January 28 2013 19:45 ThomasR wrote: snm is pretty much as annoying as moletrap
Moletrap isn't as bad imo, and while I think SNM has improved a little bit. He still is far below a reasonable standard to be set for an English-speaking proleague caster. Fine if he was purely just a translator. Whiplash is coming into his own and more or less establish an identity I can relate to a bit positively though. That isn't to say Whiplash is infallible, both make their mistakes, but seems like SNM despite all his efforts still fumbles things quite often.
Really wish they'd bring Doa along, whatever the reason, it can't be that bad can it? If he were to replace SNM, that would be a huge improvement.
Please don't bring Moletrap into this. Or other casters for that matter. This is about the proleague casting duo who are, imho, improving slowly but steadily. I don't think SNM's probem is an accent. Im' pretty sure it's some kind of speech impediment. He seems to have trouble with the letter "R" and has to put extra effort into it and that affects his overall fluency.
Both need to learn the game inside and out. Before they do, they need to stop making too many calls about what the players are doing. I really hope they are not reading this thread. It's pretty far from constructive. This is borderline hate thread.
edit. Apparently he is korean which could explain the R.
On January 28 2013 21:09 d00p wrote: Please don't bring Moletrap into this. Or other casters for that matter. This is about the proleague casting duo who are, imho, improving slowly but steadily. I don't think SNM's probem is an accent. Im' pretty sure it's some kind of speach impediment. He seems to have trouble with the letter "R" and has to put extra effort into it and that affects his overall fluency.
Both need to learn the game inside and out. Before they do, they need to stop making too many calls about what the players are doing. I really hope they are not reading this thread. It's pretty far from constructive. This is borderline hate thread.
Korean accent does not mean speech impediment @__@
On January 28 2013 21:02 lost_artz wrote: I would take moletrap and Doa over these two. Also the 2 second lag on the audio to video is rather annoying.
Hell, I would even take Apollo and he literally annoys me to the point of muting him.
Apollo??!?!??! WOOOOOOOOOOT.... you're insane... Apollo and Artosis are by far the most Professional, Hansome, Inteligent and Nerds Casters in Starcraft history..... Also they both have an insane prediction skills ...
btt: I rly dont know why they dont take DoA and add someone else who is known in the esport scene.... i dont know both of these casters and i rly dont enjoy their casting... their jokes are lame, predictions always fail and so on.. .. sorry if im rude but many people in chat also complain about these things but nothing is changing
On January 28 2013 20:47 theBALLS wrote: I don't understand the hate, I really don't. They're not the greatest, but they're not painful to listen to.
For me their voices are not pleasant to listen to because no matter what they say it sounds flat and doesn't get me excited. Plus they/snm often use awkward sentences, for example using "but" to chain multiple (long) sentences together. They don't work well with another and misjudge situations quite often.
So for me it is hard not to mute the stream because my attention goes to criticizing the casters instead of getting information from their cast.
Improving steadily. Although I think it was dumb to just throw them in there in such a big tournament, I think they are an improvement to the opening casts from TB, and as I mentioned they are ever improving!
On January 28 2013 21:09 d00p wrote: I don't think SNM's probem is an accent. Im' pretty sure it's some kind of speach impediment. He seems to have trouble with the letter "R" and has to put extra effort into it and that affects his overall fluency.
He seems to have trouble with the letter R which is indicative of many people that natively speak certain Asian languages. Which I'm fairly sure makes it an accent and not a speech impediment, that's actually pretty insulting.. A number of Asian languages don't distinguish between the L and the R sound. I don't speak Korean, but I know that's the case for Japanese.
I think they really improved and I start to like it. Next they should work on their hype-making/voice-spectrum (too monotone atm). Keep up the good work :-)
On January 28 2013 21:09 d00p wrote: I don't think SNM's probem is an accent. Im' pretty sure it's some kind of speech impediment. He seems to have trouble with the letter "R" and has to put extra effort into it and that affects his overall fluency.
He seems to have trouble with the letter R which is indicative of many people that natively speak certain Asian languages. Which I'm fairly sure makes it an accent and not a speech impediment, that's actually pretty insulting.. A number of Asian languages don't distinguish between the L and the R sound. I don't speak Korean, but I know that's the case for Japanese.
Go ahead and get insulted then. I didn't know he is korean. I'm aware of the problem asians have with R, thanks.
edit. And technically it's the same thing as a speech impediment for a westener. His tongue is unable to perform the tricks necessary due to lack of practise, though a speech impediment is more an innate inability, or a combination of both I guess but is surmountable with practise.
On January 28 2013 21:40 d00p wrote: He is Korean? Why would they pick a Korean to do an english cast? I did not know he is korean. That would explain it.
because he can then translate from korean to english maybe?
On January 28 2013 21:40 d00p wrote: He is Korean? Why would they pick a Korean to do an english cast? I did not know he is korean. That would explain it.
because he can then translate from korean to english maybe?
Could be, though I haven't seen it utilized much so far. I have only watched like 40% of it though.
On January 28 2013 21:40 d00p wrote: He is Korean? Why would they pick a Korean to do an english cast? I did not know he is korean. That would explain it.
On January 28 2013 21:40 d00p wrote: He is Korean? Why would they pick a Korean to do an english cast? I did not know he is korean. That would explain it.
because he can then translate from korean to english maybe?
Could be, though I haven't seen it utilized much so far. I have only watched like 40% of it though.
well he translates the interviews and seems to be the one to communicate with kespa. he translates quite a bit actually.
Although the rate of improvement is not the fastest ever, i feel like their casting gets better almost with every single cast. Some problems are still persistent, like undermining/ ignoring each others jokes which needs to go away asap. The ability to play of each other seems like the most common aspect which renders some casting duos as "the best". The only other complaint will be that they are starting to speak better bout the games, but both need a more diverse tonal range. Both SNM and whiplash should try to diversify their narratives to make them less monotone. Personally I often feel like PL is just 6 combined sets, without a real feel into the teams perspectives/ matchup hypes/ ace pressure. All of these could be fixed by making sure that their current tones adjust to better convey the points they are trying to make. I feel like this is has the biggest room for improvement, and will sway the most people over. Just think of how often tastosis or wolf/khaldor or tb emphasize that they are SUPER excited, that this is gonna be an INSANE matchup, how it was a GREAT set of games, emphasizing these points with appropriate (excited) tone makes you instantly more engaged.
I also want to mention a request to KeSpa that they put the english casters on stream more often for us english viewers, at least instead of the shots of the korean commentators. I think thats quite silly considering we have already seen that they have the green screen in place. The net result is that the casters feel like translators and not casters in between the games. I think both SNM and Whiplash look very likeable, and I would not be surprised if a lot of people started enjoying the casts slighly more if they could connect the voices with the faces/ personalities.
TLDR: keep improving, its not bad. Work on your joke synergy (i am not sure to what extent this can be "worked out" as I am sure two great friends would have no problem with that) and diversifying your tone to match the current situation. Also, kespa get their faces on stream more often, but not during games!
On January 28 2013 21:40 d00p wrote: He is Korean? Why would they pick a Korean to do an english cast? I did not know he is korean. That would explain it.
because he can then translate from korean to english maybe?
Could be, though I haven't seen it utilized much so far. I have only watched like 40% of it though.
well he translates the interviews and seems to be the one to communicate with kespa. he translates quite a bit actually.
Ok gotcha. I only watch select VODs and almost never the whole broadcast.
I'm not sure which of the guys it is, (the korean one?) which is REALLY nervous. To the point that he smacks his cocaster to be quiet when the game is starting. Even tho everyone could hear he was done talking =o They need to ease up abit i feel
They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
By next season you mean next year? For some reason I don't really get the voice hate, maybe it's because their voices are normal in my experience in America. Then again Americans tend to sound hideous at English lol.
On January 28 2013 22:59 warmus wrote: Although the rate of improvement is not the fastest ever, i feel like their casting gets better almost with every single cast. Some problems are still persistent, like undermining/ ignoring each others jokes which needs to go away asap. The ability to play of each other seems like the most common aspect which renders some casting duos as "the best". The only other complaint will be that they are starting to speak better bout the games, but both need a more diverse tonal range. Both SNM and whiplash should try to diversify their narratives to make them less monotone. Personally I often feel like PL is just 6 combined sets, without a real feel into the teams perspectives/ matchup hypes/ ace pressure. All of these could be fixed by making sure that their current tones adjust to better convey the points they are trying to make. I feel like this is has the biggest room for improvement, and will sway the most people over. Just think of how often tastosis or wolf/khaldor or tb emphasize that they are SUPER excited, that this is gonna be an INSANE matchup, how it was a GREAT set of games, emphasizing these points with appropriate (excited) tone makes you instantly more engaged.
I also want to mention a request to KeSpa that they put the english casters on stream more often for us english viewers, at least instead of the shots of the korean commentators. I think thats quite silly considering we have already seen that they have the green screen in place. The net result is that the casters feel like translators and not casters in between the games. I think both SNM and Whiplash look very likeable, and I would not be surprised if a lot of people started enjoying the casts slighly more if they could connect the voices with the faces/ personalities.
TLDR: keep improving, its not bad. Work on your joke synergy (i am not sure to what extent this can be "worked out" as I am sure two great friends would have no problem with that) and diversifying your tone to match the current situation. Also, kespa get their faces on stream more often, but not during games!
I actually find wolf and khaldor to be monotone very frequently during games, so I'm not sure why you would use them as an example. It's almost like their style is to be monotone lol.
As for SNM and whiplash, they very clearly are improving which I commend considering the amount of discouragement the people in this thread and elsewhere have attempted to heap on them. Their improvement demonstrates their potential as casters.
in game is... bearable but so-so... off-game chatter is... awkward, seems to me they are not friends and have no subjects to discuss... One says something, the other borderline ignores it or doesn't answer, it's.... sad. Not really fun to listen to.
I haven't watched enough PL games live to give me the right to an opinion about the English casting. However, whenever I have watched the Korean vods, the ENERGY that Korean casters have is beyond mad. I never watched BW either but literally ANY clip on youtube of Korean BW videos has the casters going fucking mental.
Basically my point is, I cannot understand or speak a single word of Korean, but their enthusiasm is such a huge entertainment, the cast is still good for me even though I have no idea what they're saying.
I think, if they were on camera for the English stream, instead of the Korean casters, they would be a lot more popular by being more relatable.
I dislike their casting for reasons probably stated repeatedly in this thread, but the main turn-off for me is the accent of SNM. It´s not Kelly Milkies bad, but it´s still very distracting. I know, of course, that it cannot easily be improved upon, but being comprehensible should be the number one priority of any caster.
On January 28 2013 23:56 Daswollvieh wrote: I think, if they were on camera for the English stream, instead of the Korean casters, they would be a lot more popular by being more relatable.
I dislike their casting for reasons probably stated repeatedly in this thread, but the main turn-off for me is the accent of SNM. It´s not Kelly Milkies bad, but it´s still very distracting. I know, of course, that it cannot easily be improved upon, but being comprehensible should be the number one priority of any caster.
Hmm... makes me wonder...
Poll: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
Nah, I understand him fine (52)
80%
American/Canadian (11)
17%
European (1)
2%
Other (1)
2%
65 total votes
Your vote: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
(Vote): American/Canadian (Vote): European (Vote): Other (Vote): Nah, I understand him fine
Curious because I would think anyone who's been around a (probably once upon a time) fob would find him quite comprehensible.
On January 28 2013 23:56 Daswollvieh wrote: I think, if they were on camera for the English stream, instead of the Korean casters, they would be a lot more popular by being more relatable.
I dislike their casting for reasons probably stated repeatedly in this thread, but the main turn-off for me is the accent of SNM. It´s not Kelly Milkies bad, but it´s still very distracting. I know, of course, that it cannot easily be improved upon, but being comprehensible should be the number one priority of any caster.
Hmm... makes me wonder...
Poll: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
Nah, I understand him fine (52)
80%
American/Canadian (11)
17%
European (1)
2%
Other (1)
2%
65 total votes
Your vote: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
(Vote): American/Canadian (Vote): European (Vote): Other (Vote): Nah, I understand him fine
Curious because I would think anyone who's been around a (probably once upon a time) fob would find him quite comprehensible.
Yes, comprehensible was a poor choice of words. I meant that - for me - his accent often distracts from the viewing and listening experience.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
By next season you mean next year? For some reason I don't really get the voice hate, maybe it's because their voices are normal in my experience in America. Then again Americans tend to sound hideous at English lol.
I recently saw the series where we saw the hillarious double proxy DT game on Entombed, i remember that i liked the casting a lot during parts of those games.
I think someone here said it best. They aren't horrible or something, it's just they aren't good enough for the PL, which has around 7k to 10k people watching
SNM/Whiplash are here to stay so I don't see the point in bashing them and crying at KeSPA. Anyway, the improvement is noticeable, keep working on it. I'm also very happy that they have help and support from other English casters in Korea. These boys will be awesome eventually.
On January 28 2013 23:56 Daswollvieh wrote: I think, if they were on camera for the English stream, instead of the Korean casters, they would be a lot more popular by being more relatable.
I dislike their casting for reasons probably stated repeatedly in this thread, but the main turn-off for me is the accent of SNM. It´s not Kelly Milkies bad, but it´s still very distracting. I know, of course, that it cannot easily be improved upon, but being comprehensible should be the number one priority of any caster.
Hmm... makes me wonder...
Poll: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
Nah, I understand him fine (52)
80%
American/Canadian (11)
17%
European (1)
2%
Other (1)
2%
65 total votes
Your vote: SNM is incomprehensible? Are you...
(Vote): American/Canadian (Vote): European (Vote): Other (Vote): Nah, I understand him fine
Curious because I would think anyone who's been around a (probably once upon a time) fob would find him quite comprehensible.
SNM isn't incomprehensible, His english is very, very good for someone speaking it as a second language. However, it is still clearly a second or third language for him, and one that he did not pick up until later in life. He just doesn't have any natural flow to his speech, and it's a huge barrier to developing the often-mentioned "chemistry" that they lack so much. His jokes fall flat much more often than they should, he contradicts himself in wording, and he talks over the top of the other caster (half the time saying the same thing, or directly contradicting what whiplash is saying, and the other half saying something completely unrelated) like he doesn't follow where the train of thought is going.
The casting has definitely improved, and it's nice to get the korean translations, but... couldn't you charge $10 for the season, and give us a third guy to do translations? I can't help but feel that the improvement would be carried along MUCH faster if we were to get two native english speakers casting.
BTW for anyone using the wolf/khaldor team to talk about how a duo should work... I think Khaldor and wolf lately have just sounded tired. There's no energy there. I prefer almost all the IPL guys, nathanias, an artosis solo cast, and probably whiplash to those two.
On January 23 2013 15:54 yyfpulls wrote: Like the guy above me said, I don't think PL cares about the english cast at all. They just barely managed to pull together the bare minimum - two guys that can speak English.
Maybe they were misrepresented on their resumes/interviews? SNM - "I've been casting BW for a while now and have a pretty solid following (which by BW numbers, he kind of did) ANNNDDDDD I can translate from Korean to English on top of that."
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "That sounds great! We could use a caster with a good following and knows our players. And you accept what we're offering you?! You're hired!!!!!"
Whiplash - "I was a SC2 pro early on and ran pretty deep at a couple MLGs. I was a grandmaster on the US ladder"
KeSPA employee who doesn't give a fuck about the foreign scene and has no clue - "Ran deep in MLG eh? Those are pretty tough from what I hear, AND you're grandmaster level? Shit, we could use you for analysis. Plus you accept what we're offering you! You're hired!!!!"
Maybe?
Summed it up, but Whiplasher is doing a good job imo, it's just that sometimes SNM seems to get off track and looses focus or something. At least that's what happened the few games i got to watch before work today.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
Well said. The sole predictor of buying another season pass will be if they cast again or not. PL is a big stage and I don't feel they are commensurate with the stage.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
Well said. The sole predictor of buying another season pass will be if they cast again or not. PL is a big stage and I don't feel they are commensurate with the stage.
So if well known casters are unable or unwilling to move to Korea then you're going to take it out on Kespa and SNM/whiplash?
Whiplash is doing fine/above average, but man SNM is horrible. It's not even his delivery/speech, just the things he chooses to say are retarded and his attempts at humor are consistently cringe-inducing. Whiplash solo would be a lot better and I will definitely be buying a subscription if SNM drastically improves overnight or is gotten rid of.
SNM seems to get stressed out too much. When Tasteless and Artosis fuck up they just let it go. And it sometimes goes completely unoticed. But SNM keeps apologizing, which brings needless attention to mistakes. His accent is fine to me, but I can understand some Europeans/ South Americans may have trouble following him.
On January 28 2013 21:09 d00p wrote: I don't think SNM's probem is an accent. Im' pretty sure it's some kind of speach impediment. He seems to have trouble with the letter "R" and has to put extra effort into it and that affects his overall fluency.
He seems to have trouble with the letter R which is indicative of many people that natively speak certain Asian languages. Which I'm fairly sure makes it an accent and not a speech impediment, that's actually pretty insulting.. A number of Asian languages don't distinguish between the L and the R sound. I don't speak Korean, but I know that's the case for Japanese.
I'm leaning toward not labeling it Korean accent. I have a bit of that accent myself and have interacted with many Koreans over the years. On the other hand, I have a native English speaker friend who talks almost exactly like SNM. Both he and SNM sound fluent and I have zero problem understanding them, but it sounds a bit like they're eating and talking at the same time. It also reminds me of fallout's Wazer Wifle.
On January 23 2013 15:54 yyfpulls wrote: Like the guy above me said, I don't think PL cares about the english cast at all. They just barely managed to pull together the bare minimum - two guys that can speak English.
Maybe they were misrepresented on their resumes/interviews? SNM - "I've been casting BW for a while now and have a pretty solid following (which by BW numbers, he kind of did) ANNNDDDDD I can translate from Korean to English on top of that."
Hahaha, how fitting. I can see that he's actually trying to work on that though ("On top of d... in addition!") and I have to give him credit for it.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
As much as I support voting with your money, the ticket is $5. There's no way I'm not going to pay that lol
SNM certainly has enunciation issues. The debate drill of speaking with a pencil in the mouth to improve clarity and force enunciation might greatly help him.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
As much as I support voting with your money, the ticket is $5. There's no way I'm not going to pay that lol
Tbh, since Korean VODs are free on YT, Youtube is organized better than Twitch, the video stream is exactly the same and I watch on mute anyways, there is no way I'm paying 5$ again. Now, if they had the same with just the game sounds (in English), I'd pay 5$ immediately.
I actually think SNM is a decently funny guy, but it's hard when you're being stonewalled by your co-caster.
Paraphrasing:
"Not drinking alcohol is considered a crime against the nation in Korea. It can get you arrested."
"No, it's not."
...
There does seem to be a bit on animosity, kinda like when Khaldor and moletrap were casting in the GSL. Maybe one (or both) of them see the other person as the problem. Hopefully they can get past that, because at the moment it sure ain't clicking.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
Well said. The sole predictor of buying another season pass will be if they cast again or not. PL is a big stage and I don't feel they are commensurate with the stage.
So if well known casters are unable or unwilling to move to Korea then you're going to take it out on Kespa and SNM/whiplash?
Well, sort of. The motivations behind buying the ticket was HD stream quality with English casting and access to VODs. Since I watch them live, the VODs aren't the motivation, so its HD quality and English casting. I don't listen to the casting anymore and watch on mute (or watch the Korean stream) so yeah, there isn't really much of a reason left to buy the ticket.
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
Well said. The sole predictor of buying another season pass will be if they cast again or not. PL is a big stage and I don't feel they are commensurate with the stage.
So if well known casters are unable or unwilling to move to Korea then you're going to take it out on Kespa and SNM/whiplash?
Well, sort of. The motivations behind buying the ticket was HD stream quality with English casting and access to VODs. Since I watch them live, the VODs aren't the motivation, so its HD quality and English casting. I don't listen to the casting anymore and watch on mute (or watch the Korean stream) so yeah, there isn't really much of a reason left to buy the ticket.
Plus the free Youtube VODs are 720p, while paid Twitch VODs are 480p only.
One of them (I honestly didn't know either of them before starting to watch Proleague) just reminds me of HD Starcraft so much. Sooooo unfunny and annoying it's unbearable. His general knowledge also seems to be lacking (I suppose it's SNM and not Whiplash from what I can read on here but I don't care enough to dig and find out.) PL would def benefit from having better casters. Wish Tastosis could do both leagues -.-
On January 28 2013 23:29 MateShade wrote: They're just not cut out to be casters. Nothing personal but if you have one arm you probably shouldn't become a boxer. Accent/speech impediment whatever it doesn't matter they're both uninteresting and unprofessional sounding, and they disagree with each other constantly, I will not pay money next season if they are casting.
As much as I support voting with your money, the ticket is $5. There's no way I'm not going to pay that lol
Tbh, since Korean VODs are free on YT, Youtube is organized better than Twitch, the video stream is exactly the same and I watch on mute anyways, there is no way I'm paying 5$ again. Now, if they had the same with just the game sounds (in English), I'd pay 5$ immediately.
Yea this is pretty much how I feel... I bought the 5$ subscription because it's so cheap but I still don't even watch SPL because it's so boring. If they had some exciting casters like Tastosis I might bother myself to watch. But as it is, I'm just going to take advantage of the free YT channel because I only watch like one SPL game every few weeks...
Truth be told, I stopped watching PL mainly because of my dislike for the casters, mostly SNM, tho it's not only him, whiplash says a lot of wrong stuff.
I strongly dislike SNM casting. His commentary detracts from the game, he doesn't seem to understand what's happening most of the time. As others have said, he seems to contradict himself a lot - even within the same sentence. Whiplash seems okay I guess.
Heh, it kind of seemed like Whiplash was kind of (figuratively) cannibalizing SNM a bit in the cast last night. Can't blame him to be honest. It's not just SNM's speech impediment, but his game knowledge seems lacking at best. Whiplash might not be much better in that regard. However, he's got a decent voice and I could certainly see him pulling a Doa.*
*Here read as: Getting by initially due to the contrast in voice quality with his fellow caster. [Though personally, I miss KellyMilkies] Though game knowledge may have been lacking initially hard work paid off and he eventually became one of the most respected casters in the business.
On January 29 2013 05:27 TheDougler wrote: Heh, it kind of seemed like Whiplash was kind of (figuratively) cannibalizing SNM a bit in the cast last night. Can't blame him to be honest. It's not just SNM's speech impediment, but his game knowledge seems lacking at best. Whiplash might not be much better in that regard. However, he's got a decent voice and I could certainly see him pulling a Doa.*
*Here read as: Getting by initially due to the contrast in voice quality with his fellow caster. [Though personally, I miss KellyMilkies] Though game knowledge may have been lacking initially hard work paid off and he eventually became one of the most respected casters in the business.
Doa is awesome. But you seriously miss KellyMilkies? Calling Hellions LaceCaws?! no thank you o_O
I only like very few caster atm in the Sc2 scene so I might be very harsh, and I have to say that these guys are probably one of the worst.... everything from broadcasting (talking over each other, mumbeling, coughing into the mic, akward topics, lack of chemistry etc) to game knowledge is really low. I dont think these caster follow the Sc2 scene at all....they seem to know some BW... Its just seems very sloppy casting to me with very little preparation...They should at least prepare themselves for the games... and do not cast like its a regular skypecall, you actually have an audience.."talk to them"...
On January 29 2013 05:27 TheDougler wrote: Heh, it kind of seemed like Whiplash was kind of (figuratively) cannibalizing SNM a bit in the cast last night. Can't blame him to be honest. It's not just SNM's speech impediment, but his game knowledge seems lacking at best. Whiplash might not be much better in that regard. However, he's got a decent voice and I could certainly see him pulling a Doa.*
*Here read as: Getting by initially due to the contrast in voice quality with his fellow caster. [Though personally, I miss KellyMilkies] Though game knowledge may have been lacking initially hard work paid off and he eventually became one of the most respected casters in the business.
Doa is awesome. But you seriously miss KellyMilkies? Calling Hellions LaceCaws?! no thank you o_O
Dude, she was hot
The KellyMilkies bit is beside the point though. Whiplash could be okay if it wasn't for SNM. Also:
On January 29 2013 05:24 neoghaleon55 wrote: I gave up on them when they said "mowaudaws come out of factowies" last night on air
the more i watch the more i like them. Not sure what standard people on TL are using in order to compare their SC casters to, but I think they are fine. Then again I don't watch to listen to casters, I watch to see the games. Kinda like any other sport......
On January 29 2013 05:45 hangarninetysix wrote: SNM does have some speech issues.
Whiplash seems okay except for the fact that he acts like he doesn't really like SNM, which leads to some awkward moments.
Can you blame him? This is a major career opportunity for him and it's turning out really bad because he's casting alongside somebody who really shouldn't be there.
Since pretty much everybody is just shitting on them, some of which I think is deserved and some not, I figure I'll say something positive about them. I like that SNM knows a little bit about the backgrounds of a lot of the kespa players. Like he knows their Brood War history and random little things like nicknames they have/had and things like that. There are very few people who have that sort of knowledge, partially because not everybody followed BW, but mostly because there aren't many casters who know korean.
On January 29 2013 05:58 ApBuLLet wrote: Since pretty much everybody is just shitting on them, some of which I think is deserved and some not, I figure I'll say something positive about them. I like that SNM knows a little bit about the backgrounds of a lot of the kespa players. Like he knows their Brood War history and random little things like nicknames they have/had and things like that. There are very few people who have that sort of knowledge, partially because not everybody followed BW, but mostly because there aren't many casters who know korean.
Agree. I really enjoy his random BW history lessons.
On January 29 2013 05:49 Buff345 wrote: the more i watch the more i like them. Not sure what standard people on TL are using in order to compare their SC casters to, but I think they are fine. Then again I don't watch to listen to casters, I watch to see the games. Kinda like any other sport......
Because SPL is a big/important event, people wanted to have a pro casters. Like GSL S/A ones. Compare Tastosis or Wolf and Khaldor with SNM and Whiplash... And we've got amateur casters instead. For SPL. For example no one complained when IGN got some amateur casters to cast some of their events and even held a casters contest and let winners to cast some games on IPL5. There was too many games anyway and they only casted a few of those. -----
SNM really likes BW and doesn't like SC2. I got that much from time when he was a mod on Sea's stream (when Sea was in TL). So it's kinda "normal" that he lacks knowledge and passion when commenting SC2. And he also doesn't have anything else to compensate it. I mean take some well known caster for example, like TB. He doesn't know about game THAT much either, he's busy with other games, his youtube channel, other projects etc. But he can commentate very well (some may like him, some won't, ofc, but he's still proffesional caster). So in case with SNM...He doesn't have anything at all to be a good SC2 caster. Voice, diction, knowledge of the game, passion to cast SC2 games. Nothing at all. Plus as mentioned already, SNM and WP doesn't work very well together, so it only makes things worse.
Apart from the previously noted awkwardness/voice issues/poor chemistry....they seem to have a glaring lack of game knowledge and sense for SC2. It only shows up some of the time, but frankly it's very jarring when it does. Whether it's calling games early and wrongly or simple inablility to read the flow of the game and see what's coming, they just don't know the game as well as ME, much less Tastosis or Doa.
EPT
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