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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Introvert
United States5065 Posts
On February 03 2018 02:51 Sandvich wrote: Well it's really not since the committee voted not to release the dem memo. https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/02/politics/democrats-memo-russia-adam-schiff-devin-nunes/ They voted against making it public immediately, iirc . That's not the same. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:10 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What is interesting about FISA is that they're almost never denied. I'm not sure if this means applications are only submitted when the backing information is obviously there or if they just hand them out like candy though. If only there was a way to formally investigate this rather then through one sided partisan memo's to the press. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:06 On_Slaught wrote: Am I crazy or is this whole thing one big fallacy? Who cares if he is biased? The FBI and FISA judge are evidence based parties and would look to confirm the information, which is what it seems the FBI did. They found that some of it was inaccurate/unknown and some corroborated what they had found. Why does it matter WHO and WHY the information was given? Hell, Hillary herself could have gone to the FBI and it wouldn't change the validitity of any facts presented. Because Nunes and others think the Deep State exists. Cut and dry. No one can divorce themselves from their political views and act unbiased if they work in the government. So the FBI and Justice department are tainted and should be cleared out and replaced every election. This is what these anti-government conservatives believe. Mind you, the systems in place in the FBI and Justice department were designed to prevent that after Nixon and Herbert Hoover. They are supposed to span elections and administrations to provide stability and resist the political whims of the moment. By doing this, they are attempting to turn the FBI and Justice department into a political tool of the winning party that election cycle. On February 03 2018 03:13 xDaunt wrote: For all of you on the left who are confused regarding what this memo really means, let me help you out. First and foremost, the memo does not exonerate Trump or anyone else who is being investigated. Trump may still be a Russian agent who will get impeached. However, the memo does strongly suggest that the FBI abused the FISA court process for political purposes, particularly when you look at the memo in the context of all of those Strozk/Page text messages that are out there. The unavoidable conclusion is that the FBI leadership was dirty, and democrats need to halt their unabashed support for Comey, McCabe, et al. Can I just get you to clear up one thing? Nunes wrote this memo and he is also political biased against the investigation into Trump's team. Do you agree with that assessment of the memo's author. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:11 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/959290557011931136 Well, I definitely agree with ol' Joe about that. He's ignorant. | ||
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farvacola
United States18870 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:10 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What is interesting about FISA is that they're almost never denied. I'm not sure if this means applications are only submitted when the backing information is obviously there or if they just hand them out like candy though. A guidepost helpful in terms of understanding FISA is the Supreme Court case that effectively excluded huge portions of potential challengers from federal court. Check out Clapper v. Amnesty International, 568 U.S. 368 (2013). | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:13 xDaunt wrote: For all of you on the left who are confused regarding what this memo really means, let me help you out. First and foremost, the memo does not exonerate Trump or anyone else who is being investigated. Trump may still be a Russian agent who will get impeached. However, the memo does strongly suggest that the FBI abused the FISA court process for political purposes, particularly when you look at the memo in the context of all of those Strozk/Page text messages that are out there. The unavoidable conclusion is that the FBI leadership was dirty, and democrats need to halt their unabashed support for Comey, McCabe, et al. Are you talking about secret society meetings within the FBI again? And once again, nothing in this memo is worth jack shit. Its written by a man who is supposed to formally be reclused from the investigation because he is a potential suspect. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:15 Gorsameth wrote: Are you talking about secret society meetings within the FBI again? I don't know whether there's a "secret society" or not, but there very clearly is a strong anti-Trump political bias at the FBI. The fact that they concealed the origins of the dossier in the FISA application confirms as such. It's not even debatable anymore. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:17 xDaunt wrote: I don't know whether there's a "secret society" or not, but there very clear is a strong anti-Trump political bias at the FBI. The fact that they concealed the origins of the dossier in the FISA application confirms as such. It's not even debatable anymore. If the FBI thinks Trump is compromised, wouldn't that be a good cause for bias? | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:13 xDaunt wrote: For all of you on the left who are confused regarding what this memo really means, let me help you out. First and foremost, the memo does not exonerate Trump or anyone else who is being investigated. Trump may still be a Russian agent who will get impeached. However, the memo does strongly suggest that the FBI abused the FISA court process for political purposes, particularly when you look at the memo in the context of all of those Strozk/Page text messages that are out there. The unavoidable conclusion is that the FBI leadership was dirty, and democrats need to halt their unabashed support for Comey, McCabe, et al. I fully agree that if Comey or McCabe were dirty, they need to go down. However, in a vacuum this memo doesn't prove that. I'll wait to see the FBI's and Democrats' response memos first before we roll out the Marshalls. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:17 xDaunt wrote: I don't know whether there's a "secret society" or not, but there very clearly is a strong anti-Trump political bias at the FBI. The fact that they concealed the origins of the dossier in the FISA application confirms as such. It's not even debatable anymore. I'm not convinced on the origins part. They would need to tell the judge who gave them the information and why he obtained it. My bet is that they simply informed the judge it was opposition research in relation to the election and omitted which specific political party paid for it because they didn't feel it was relevant to the fact set. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:18 Mohdoo wrote: If the FBI thinks Trump is compromised, wouldn't that be a good cause for bias? Maybe, but it certainly doesn't look like the FBI had such information when it applied for the FISA warrant. The real question is what have they learned since then. But here's the rub. As far as we know, there still is no concrete information showing that Trump is compromised or a Russian agent. Not one good leak showing as such despite all the other shit that has leaked. Instead, and by all accounts, Mueller is focused on obstruction of justice, which is strictly derivative to what might be a fraudulent investigation. See the problem here? | ||
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ReTr0[p.S]
Argentina1590 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22675 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:21 xDaunt wrote: Maybe, but it certainly doesn't look like the FBI had such information when it applied for the FISA warrant. The real question is what have they learned since then. But here's the rub. As far as we know, there still is no concrete information showing that Trump is compromised or a Russian agent. Not one good leak showing as such despite all the other shit that has leaked. Instead, and by all accounts, Mueller is focused on obstruction of justice, which is strictly derivative to what might be a fraudulent investigation. See the problem here? Yeah, not Trump. Just multiple people in his campaign and transition team... | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Oh man, US politics. This is hilarious. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:17 xDaunt wrote: I don't know whether there's a "secret society" or not, but there very clearly is a strong anti-Trump political bias at the FBI. The fact that they concealed the origins of the dossier in the FISA application confirms as such. It's not even debatable anymore. Accepting this is true; does it even matter? The FISA application is practically a rubber stamp, do you think it would have been denied including that origin story? | ||
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:17 xDaunt wrote: I don't know whether there's a "secret society" or not, but there very clearly is a strong anti-Trump political bias at the FBI. The fact that they concealed the origins of the dossier in the FISA application confirms as such. It's not even debatable anymore. This is pretty classic xDaunt to say something controversial and assert it's "undebatable." The FBI is historically pretty Republican (although that doesn't mean they're not anti-Trump, granted). The Comey letter seems like pretty strong counter-evidence in this case, as well as the stories at the time that Comey's hand was forced by angry pro-Trump factions at the bureau. Did you mean to say "this is a piece of evidence in favor of my hypothesis, let's discuss how strong this evidence is"? Because your assertion is still looking real debatable right about now. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 03 2018 03:36 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Accepting this is true; does it even matter? The FISA application is practically a rubber stamp, do you really think it would have been denied including that origin story? It very well could. I don't know the FISA application process that well or what standards have to be met, but my gut tells me that the omissions probably are very significant, particularly if the nature of the dossier was misrepresented to the court. | ||
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