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On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong.
Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it.
That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now).
Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought.
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United States42640 Posts
On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought.
How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election?
Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into?
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On July 12 2017 07:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:09 Doodsmack wrote:On July 12 2017 06:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2017 06:37 Gorsameth wrote:On July 12 2017 06:33 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2017 06:26 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
A criminal conspiracy to do what, exactly? Obtain illegally obtained information from a foreign government for the purpose of influencing the election. Good morning
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.
The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.
What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?
I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.
Best
Rob Goldstone Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?
Best,
Don https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20 I'm not sure that those regulations prohibit the receipt of opposition research from a foreign national. It also doesn't look like those regulations relate to criminal statutes (the enabling statutes aren't in Title 18). Setting aside the legality of the entire situation. Do you now accept that the Russian investigation is not a hoax and that (thanks to Donald Jr) there is now proof of Russia directly interacting with the highest levels of the Trump campaign (leaving aside the question if they accepted the help or not, that would be the next step to prove). I still haven't seen anything that shows criminal conduct warranting an investigation into Trump. I have always thought it likely that there were some back channel communications between the Trump campaign and Russia during the election. This, in and of itself, isn't problematic. What would be problematic would be the Trump campaign participating in an actual illegal activity that the Russians were conducting. For example, Trump's campaign facilitating the Russian hacking of the DNC server would be criminal. Merely receiving information, regardless of how it is obtained, after the fact? Probably not. Would that info ever be received from Russia for free? The investigation is also a counter intel one, because Russia is a foreign adversary. To simply gloss over it as not criminal is only 10% of the story. As a hypothetical, if it were to be proven that it happened, and it really wasn't criminal, Congress would probably pass a law to make it criminal in the future. I have no idea. You can't convict people on speculation and the hypothetical. As always, I'm waiting to see how this plays out. How many times have numerous posters in this thread pronounced Trump's demise due to an instance of alleged [criminal] wrongdoing? And how many time have they been right? Last I checked, they're all still batting zero. You'd think that people would have learned to not be so presumptuous by now.
You realize this is all a continuation of the initial investigations, right?
They're batting zero because there hasn't been a pitch yet.
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On July 12 2017 07:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2017 07:09 Doodsmack wrote:On July 12 2017 06:45 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2017 06:37 Gorsameth wrote:On July 12 2017 06:33 xDaunt wrote:On July 12 2017 06:26 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 06:20 xDaunt wrote:
A criminal conspiracy to do what, exactly? Obtain illegally obtained information from a foreign government for the purpose of influencing the election. Good morning
Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.
The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.
What do you think is the best way to handle this information and would you be able to speak to Emin about it directly?
I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.
Best
Rob Goldstone Thanks Rob I appreciate that. I am on the road at the moment but perhaps I just speak to Emin first. Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer. Could we do a call first thing next week when I am back?
Best,
Don https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20 I'm not sure that those regulations prohibit the receipt of opposition research from a foreign national. It also doesn't look like those regulations relate to criminal statutes (the enabling statutes aren't in Title 18). Setting aside the legality of the entire situation. Do you now accept that the Russian investigation is not a hoax and that (thanks to Donald Jr) there is now proof of Russia directly interacting with the highest levels of the Trump campaign (leaving aside the question if they accepted the help or not, that would be the next step to prove). I still haven't seen anything that shows criminal conduct warranting an investigation into Trump. I have always thought it likely that there were some back channel communications between the Trump campaign and Russia during the election. This, in and of itself, isn't problematic. What would be problematic would be the Trump campaign participating in an actual illegal activity that the Russians were conducting. For example, Trump's campaign facilitating the Russian hacking of the DNC server would be criminal. Merely receiving information, regardless of how it is obtained, after the fact? Probably not. Would that info ever be received from Russia for free? The investigation is also a counter intel one, because Russia is a foreign adversary. To simply gloss over it as not criminal is only 10% of the story. As a hypothetical, if it were to be proven that it happened, and it really wasn't criminal, Congress would probably pass a law to make it criminal in the future. I have no idea. You can't convict people on speculation and the hypothetical. As always, I'm waiting to see how this plays out. How many times have numerous posters in this thread pronounced Trump's demise due to an instance of alleged [criminal] wrongdoing? And how many time have they been right? Last I checked, they're all still batting zero. You'd think that people would have learned to not be so presumptuous by now. You realize this is all a continuation of the initial investigations, right? They're batting zero because there hasn't been a pitch yet.
I'm not referring to the investigators. I'm talking about various posters around here. Do I really need to make a "hall of shame" type of post that shows the speculative nonsense that has been spewed in this thread over the past several months?
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A preview of what is coming next week on the Trump-Russia show.
4 hours after DonJR sets up meeting with Russian Lawyer to get Clinton dirt, Trump promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt.
+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/yashar/status/884900796957171712
June 9: Trump Jr. meeting
June 12: Assange announces HRC leaks coming
June 15: Guccifer 2.0 launches on Wordpress
+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/884901829477322752
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I (vaguely) look forward to seeing what the responses to all this are tomorrow from the various parties and politicians.
it'll be interesting to see what spins everyone is putting on things.
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On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into?
I can't speak for GH, but I've heard from Republicans that they 100% don't care about the fact that the Trump crew colluded with Russia. They just don't care. Most of them even admit it by now, but it's all just a big "So what?" So the only thing more and more focus on Russia will do will just distract from any topic that is actually meaningful when it comes to trying to persuade Trump supporters to stop loving him. It kind of reminds me of GH's/ others' position that Democrats aren't focusing on the platforms that many Americans (especially swing voters) care about, which leads to messages that aren't resonating with those who they should be speaking to. Is the moral high ground worth it if you sacrifice all your political capital and control? I honestly don't know, but Democrats are losing to Republicans and that's not helping America.
But then again, I don't know what issues *should* be the Democratic focus, and it's not like they have a lot of power now anyway.
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On July 12 2017 07:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into? I can't speak for GH, but I've heard from Republicans that they 100% don't care about the fact that the Trump crew colluded with Russia. They just don't care. Most of them even admit it by now, but it's all just a big "So what?" So the only thing more and more focus on Russia will do will just distract from any topic that is actually meaningful when it comes to trying to persuade Trump supporters to stop loving him. It kind of reminds me of GH's/ others' position that Democrats aren't focusing on the platforms that many Americans (especially swing voters) care about, which leads to messages that aren't resonating with those who they should be speaking to. Is the moral high ground worth it if you sacrifice all your political capital and control? I honestly don't know, but Democrats are losing to Republicans and that's not helping America. But then again, I don't know what issues *should* be the Democratic focus, and it's not like they have a lot of power now anyway.
Democrats need to be focusing on social media and other messaging platforms to just get the word out. More Bernie rallies. More goals. More vision. They need to be spending their time spreading reasons why their perspective on government is effective and appropriate. Interestingly enough, the Obama economy isn't really giving people a reason to listen. Things are totally fine right now.
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The timing of all of this is so fascinating, even if it proves nothing. Literally hours after the meeting Trump talkings about dirt on Clinton next week. The DNC emails are dropped the next week. You can't make this stuff up, no one would believe you.
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On July 12 2017 07:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into? I can't speak for GH, but I've heard from Republicans that they 100% don't care about the fact that the Trump crew colluded with Russia. They just don't care. Most of them even admit it by now, but it's all just a big "So what?" So the only thing more and more focus on Russia will do will just distract from any topic that is actually meaningful when it comes to trying to persuade Trump supporters to stop loving him. It kind of reminds me of GH's/ others' position that Democrats aren't focusing on the platforms that many Americans (especially swing voters) care about, which leads to messages that aren't resonating with those who they should be speaking to. Is the moral high ground worth it if you sacrifice all your political capital and control? I honestly don't know, but Democrats are losing to Republicans and that's not helping America. But then again, I don't know what issues *should* be the Democratic focus, and it's not like they have a lot of power now anyway.
Now here is an enlightened post.
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On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into?
Sure, and a thorough look into how to prevent it in the future would probably be a good thing. But one would be "stop interfering in other countries elections so we aren't being hypocritical" and that's a non-starter sooo....
My next question would be, we aren't going to stop, so the rest of the world definitely isn't going to stop, how can we reduce their efficacy? "Be transparent", another non-starter, so how about better security? The DNC never even turned over it's servers to federal investigators, so the government doesn't really even know exactly how those emails were obtained. So, don't expect much in the keeping up with hackers department.
So what about holding people accountable, well Jr. looks like he and others on the campaign wanted dirt on Hillary and would take it from anywhere (as would the Republican party if they thought they would get away with it) so they aren't going to turn on Trump and threaten to send his kid to prison, or abandon him if it miraculously went through the motions of a trial and threaten impeachment if he pardoned his son.
So yeah, a forensic look at what happened and how our system is prepared to deal with it, and what we can change to influence how we handle it next time, that would be fantastic. However, this constant Trump spasming over every dumb thing they say or do or leaks is beyond played out at this point.
I know a lot of people don't know better, but I imagine you do, that this is a lot of theater to make it look like we have a government interested or capable of preventing what is obvious profiteering by the president and what seems like at least the willingness to go to any length to gain a political advantage, including working with actors of a foreign government. But we don't, at least not at the moment. Instead we have a lot of huffing and puffing and an executive branch built out of rebar reinforced, steel shingled, bricks.
I don't doubt you could convince some Republicans (maybe even ~15) to say off the record they would like Trump to be impeached with the votes locked in, getting them to ever find a way to both win their seat back and impeach Trump is going to take something like the check I described earlier, and even something like that might not be enough.
So as was said, it's a distraction and a waste (beyond a forensic look, which Mueller is as close as we're going to get), and Democrats need to stop being so stubbornly stupid about not making the changes they need to be making.
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On July 12 2017 08:01 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrats need to be focusing on social media and other messaging platforms to just get the word out. More Bernie rallies. More goals. More vision. They need to be spending their time spreading reasons why their perspective on government is effective and appropriate. Interestingly enough, the Obama economy isn't really giving people a reason to listen. Things are totally fine right now.
That Democrats need to be focusing on other, more important things does not mean that this investigation is "just for show".
I disagree with GH's premise that this entire business is just for settling petty disputes between the political parties. If this is as real as it's appearing to be, we should be letting the investigation play out and looking carefully at what it turns up. That the Democrats shouldn't be parading this around as some sort of victory or "see I told you so" is also true, but that doesn't mean the investigation itself is pointless.
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On July 12 2017 00:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
I feel like this isn't really getting enough attention.
This statement by a slimy sack of balls was made 6 weeks after the email. That's what you voted into office, don't for a single second think that TrumpSR somehow is different. He comes very much after his father. There's no space for the usual whataboutism left either, regardless of how much you want Hillary to be the bad guy somehow in this story.
This is an undeniable fact: it's not just untrue what he said, it's blatant and deliberate lying. I'd let some stuff slip in regards to Trump because he might not know better, but in this case, it's rather clear.
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On July 12 2017 08:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 08:01 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrats need to be focusing on social media and other messaging platforms to just get the word out. More Bernie rallies. More goals. More vision. They need to be spending their time spreading reasons why their perspective on government is effective and appropriate. Interestingly enough, the Obama economy isn't really giving people a reason to listen. Things are totally fine right now.
That Democrats need to be focusing on other, more important things does not mean that this investigation is "just for show".
I disagree with GH's premise that this entire business is just for settling petty disputes between the political parties. If this is as real as it's appearing to be, we should be letting the investigation play out and looking carefully at what it turns up. That the Democrats shouldn't be parading this around as some sort of victory or "see I told you so" is also true, but that doesn't mean the investigation itself is pointless.
I'm not saying this is for show. I am just poking my head in to say what I think democrats need to do to be successful as a party.
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Just realized that Don Jr copied Manafort and Kushner on the email chain. So that wipes out the notion that he went rogue.
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On July 12 2017 07:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into? I can't speak for GH, but I've heard from Republicans that they 100% don't care about the fact that the Trump crew colluded with Russia. They just don't care. Most of them even admit it by now, but it's all just a big "So what?" So the only thing more and more focus on Russia will do will just distract from any topic that is actually meaningful when it comes to trying to persuade Trump supporters to stop loving him. It kind of reminds me of GH's/ others' position that Democrats aren't focusing on the platforms that many Americans (especially swing voters) care about, which leads to messages that aren't resonating with those who they should be speaking to. Is the moral high ground worth it if you sacrifice all your political capital and control? I honestly don't know, but Democrats are losing to Republicans and that's not helping America. But then again, I don't know what issues *should* be the Democratic focus, and it's not like they have a lot of power now anyway.
Somehow I doubt Republicans wouldn't care if Trump colluded with Russia. Their line so far is that it didn't happen and it's just the liberal media. If it turns out that there was quid pro quo collusion, I think you would see impeachment. The key point here is that Russia is a foreign adversary.
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On July 12 2017 08:12 Doodsmack wrote:
Just realized that Don Jr copied Manafort and Kushner on the email chain. So that wipes out the notion that he went rogue.
Just a bunch of the most senior Trump associates planning stuff. Trump totally not involved. lmao
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On July 12 2017 08:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 08:01 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrats need to be focusing on social media and other messaging platforms to just get the word out. More Bernie rallies. More goals. More vision. They need to be spending their time spreading reasons why their perspective on government is effective and appropriate. Interestingly enough, the Obama economy isn't really giving people a reason to listen. Things are totally fine right now. That Democrats need to be focusing on other, more important things does not mean that this investigation is "just for show". I disagree with GH's premise that this entire business is just for settling petty disputes between the political parties. If this is as real as it's appearing to be, we should be letting the investigation play out and looking carefully at what it turns up. That the Democrats shouldn't be parading this around as some sort of victory or "see I told you so" is also true, but that doesn't mean the investigation itself is pointless.
I mean it's not supposed to be pointless, the whole point is that you enjoy the show (and don't hold Democrats accountable for their incompetence or corporate dependencies).
Like they are really ready to lose 2018 to this hollow sham of a party because a winning message might net them less donor dollars to be disseminated to the political class.
On July 12 2017 08:14 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 07:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 12 2017 07:47 KwarK wrote:On July 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 12 2017 07:40 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I mean, even if it isn't "wrong" Donald Trump and his campaign systematically denied and lied to the American people about this issue over, and over, and over again. And then Trump fired Comey to make it go away.
I don't see how anyone can't see that as wrong. Well if something isn't illegal (and proven to have happened in a court) I can think of at least two parties that would argue it's acceptable. Same with consistently lying about it. That's one of the things I don't get about all this, we know it's all for show and settling petty disputes between political groups and nothing will come of it (even if this Don Jr. thing is much worse than reported now). Unless the idea is that the Republican base is going to suddenly turn on Trump and want him/his family in prison. In which case these Democratic delusions are worse than I thought. How are you still running with "it's all for show" after it has been proven that Trump Jr. met with Russian government representatives in an attempt to get information to help win the election? Do you not think that's a problem worth looking into? I can't speak for GH, but I've heard from Republicans that they 100% don't care about the fact that the Trump crew colluded with Russia. They just don't care. Most of them even admit it by now, but it's all just a big "So what?" So the only thing more and more focus on Russia will do will just distract from any topic that is actually meaningful when it comes to trying to persuade Trump supporters to stop loving him. It kind of reminds me of GH's/ others' position that Democrats aren't focusing on the platforms that many Americans (especially swing voters) care about, which leads to messages that aren't resonating with those who they should be speaking to. Is the moral high ground worth it if you sacrifice all your political capital and control? I honestly don't know, but Democrats are losing to Republicans and that's not helping America. But then again, I don't know what issues *should* be the Democratic focus, and it's not like they have a lot of power now anyway. Somehow I doubt Republicans wouldn't care if Trump colluded with Russia. Their line so far is that it didn't happen and it's just the liberal media. If it turns out that there was quid pro quo collusion, I think you would see impeachment. The key point here is that Russia is a foreign adversary.
Here, let's say this gets really dirty really fast and Republicans lose several seats. Let's go crazy and say Democrats win 7 seats (like .00001 chance) That gives Democrats 53 senate seats. They could bring impeachment up for a vote, but then they need 66 senators to sign on.
Please, anyone who seriously thinks there's even a remote chance for impeachment, just give me the 13 Republican Senators who are impeaching a Republican president?
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On July 12 2017 08:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2017 08:12 Doodsmack wrote:
Just realized that Don Jr copied Manafort and Kushner on the email chain. So that wipes out the notion that he went rogue. Just a bunch of the most senior Trump associates planning stuff. Trump totally not involved. lmao
I find it absolutely unbelievable that Trump didn't know what was going on, given those 3 were privy to it.
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so gh, what do you think bernie should do to improve his chances of winning if he goes for president again?
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EPT
