EPTOn October 31 2013 00:25 RvB wrote:
Why ? circumstances change and it will only help the civilians of Cuba.
Why ? circumstances change and it will only help the civilians of Cuba.
Warming of relations means becoming more friendly and open.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 584
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
Warming of relations means becoming more friendly and open. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote: Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch. We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them. Why? Cuba no longer is a threat in any way. Can you think of any reasons besides ZOMG commies? | ||
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Sermokala
United States14210 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:08 heliusx wrote: Why? Cuba no longer is a threat in any way. Can you think of any reasons besides ZOMG commies? My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined. Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote: Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch. We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them. What does more harm to the population, the dictatorship or the blockade? What part do we have control over? (And when I say we, I mean the US) The US has no general policy problem with dictatorships either and by all measurements Cubas dictatorship is quite a good one*. Edit: *As far as dictatorships go. On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote: My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined. Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country. Building good public institutions and a stable society is a precursor for democracy. A fact often lost on US policy makers (or, perhaps, just in the rethoric used by them). Those public institutions do well with good economic conditions including things like trade, which we are currently hindering. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18446 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote: My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined. Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country. If you have sanctions because Raul Castro is a dictator, why doesn't the US have similar sactions against half the countries in Africa, Asia and other Carribean islands? Oh wait, it's because Raul Castro is a filthy commie. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote: Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country. and the sanctions have been doing such a great job of weakening the castros, huh right-wingers don't get to talk about their moral opposition to dictators, it's just hypocrisy | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote: Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch. We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them. Since when is that a requirement to lift sanctions? Do I need to list the sort of horrible people that we trade with? The Cold War is over. Fidel is no longer the head. Our reasons for sanctions are outdated at best. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10958 Posts
Castro was better for Cuba than the Regime before him (thats pretty much an undeniable fact, he wan't/isn't a "good guy" but you trade with plenty of "bad leaders" all over the world.. You even call some of them "allies"). There was a time when the Embargo made sense but that time is over since... At least 20 years (AT LEAST). Why is it still up? Just for old times sake? Well... There is one good thing comming from it (from a totally egoistic european perspective), Cuba isn't overrun by american tourism ^^. | ||
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Adila
United States874 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:27 Velr wrote: I really wonder how Kuba would have done witheout the US-Embargo (or a less harsh/complete one). Castro was better for Cuba than the Regime before him (thats pretty much an undeniable fact). There was a time when the Embargo made sense but that time is over since... At least 20 years (AT LEAST). Why is it still up? Just for old times sake? Cubans in Florida make up a very influential voting bloc. In my opinion, they are the only reason we still have an embargo on Cuba. I do not see any objective reason for it (ie. Nuclear, Chemical, Biological, Terrorists, etc.) | ||
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Sermokala
United States14210 Posts
Cuba works as a country beacuse castro sent all the white, middle class. Educated people away to america then emptied his jails and mental hospitals. Trade will benifit the people but putting pressure on them to have an open capitalist nation will benifit them more. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14210 Posts
All this doesn't apply to cuba which was already westernized and doesn't need a dictator to prosper. Unlike African nations it was ready t go past dictator stage and move onto the world stage. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:53 Sermokala wrote: How many dictators that we supported saved lives and benifited people by spreading peace. like pinochet and mobutu | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18446 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:18 heliusx wrote: Well you could at least let sermonkala clarify his position on dictators we prop up before implying he's being a hypocrite. How about now? :D | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18446 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:53 Sermokala wrote: And on the subject of dictators we prop up id have to say that they're good until they're not. Look a yugoslavia and lybia. How many dictators that we supported saved lives and benifited people by spreading peace. Part of having control over the dictator is being able to stop him easily if he goes bad, which we haven't done well. It was all hipster and popular to support democracy in that country until people realized that the nation wasnt ready yet for it and is now stuck in a military dictatorship like it was before All this doesn't apply to cuba which was already westernized and doesn't need a dictator to prosper. Unlike African nations it was ready t go past dictator stage and move onto the world stage. Yeah, because Batista was a super-friendly dude and not corrupt at all! I'm not saying Castro was good for Cuba. I have actually been there and seen the problems. But trying to claim the situation pre-Castro was in any way better (excluding ideological viewpoints) is absurd. EDIT: and just to clarify, Batista himself was a military dictator... just one supported by the US. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On October 31 2013 01:42 Sermokala wrote: Africa doesn't count beacuse its still a tribal mess that the euros never bothered to either fix or help out in any way. China is responsible for that part of the country now and good luck talking to them about human rights issues. Cuba works as a country beacuse castro sent all the white, middle class. Educated people away to america then emptied his jails and mental hospitals. Trade will benifit the people but putting pressure on them to have an open capitalist nation will benifit them more. So how's that been working so far? | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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Cillas
Germany78 Posts
And look at the countries u support atm. Thats "under control"? | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
Oh I knew he was going to full on hypocrite and then make all kind of justifications. I just usually have better discussion when I try not to jump the gun.  | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
edit: Over 50years of sanctions have yealded 0 results, wouldn't opening up the country to the wonders of tourism money and better living conditions for everybody be a faster way to 'democracy' | ||
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