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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 585

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18828 Posts
October 30 2013 17:34 GMT
#11681
Unfortunately, like most political topics, Cuba-US relations have been totally co-opted by our political process and are now warped beyond recognition. That the voting implications of Florida are enough to stopper all progress in freeing up trade and what not is indeed a sad subject.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 30 2013 17:44 GMT
#11682
I concur that it's the voting implications of the cuba émigré bloc vote in florida (a major swing state in presidential elections) that are blocking change, rather than any sound strategy.
The embargoes were put into place to force castro from power, some 40 years later he retires due to ill health; conclusion: the embargoes didn't work.
In general, I observe that embargoes either work fast (the threat of embargo as much as the actual embargo) or they don't work at all.

I favor trade in general as it opens up lines of communication and makes it harder for a government to lie to its citizens; because when there's trade there's travel, and business travel is much harder for a government to monitor; so people get more communication in.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 18:02:53
October 30 2013 17:58 GMT
#11683
On October 30 2013 18:07 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2013 14:46 oneofthem wrote:
"having individuals decide their own healthcare option" is a joke surely. the entire problem resides in the lack of consumer choice in the way the 'market' is already set up. (due to lack of info, how healthcare is delivered through insurance and costs are determined by feudalistic kingdoms operating with impunity in their little piece of territory)

you can't give consumers the choice in a market that doesn't have choice. it's just doublespeak for doing nothing at all. when there's no choice in the market letting people do whatever without interference in that market won't lead you to freedom land

And by taking away more choices through regulation, even the choice to go without and save money for other things while you're young, government helps create choice.
Love it.

not eating is not a choice of food you know.

ensuring universal care is one necessary step towards glorious communism
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
October 30 2013 18:24 GMT
#11684
Sanctions and embargoes can do good things, but only when your goal is NOT the removal of the people in power. When they can give you something in return and keep their power, they will be willing to negotiate. Removing regimes by sanctions is rarely working even for unpopular dictators, and especially in case like Cuba when the regime was actually extremely popular at the start and still is to some extent.

Open trade has done more good in this regard than any sanctions ever did. Open trade allows slow erosion of regime's power and prepares way for change in governance towards democracy. Cuba will most likely change into some kind of democracy sooner or later, but sanctions won't have much to do with it and considering suffering they cause, they are not worth it. Unless of course your goal is not helping the people, but instead US political domination and punishing countries you consider your puppets for their bad behaviour, just like Sermokala displays.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 30 2013 18:37 GMT
#11685
Paul Ryan killed any lingering hopes of a grand bargain within moments of the budget conference kickoff on Wednesday.

In his opening remarks, the Wisconsin congressman and chairman of the House budget committee laid down a firm marker against new taxes, which are essential to any major deficit reduction proposal that can pass Congress and be signed into law.

"Taking more from hardworking families just isn't the answer. I know my Republican colleagues feel the same way," Ryan said. "So I want to say this from the get-go: If this conference becomes an argument about taxes, we're not going to get anywhere. The way to raise revenue is to grow the economy."

In the same opening remarks, Ryan urged action on scaling back Social Security and Medicare -- which progressives want to avoid at all costs, and which President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders have promised not to touch without new federal revenues.

"Ten thousand baby boomers are retiring every day. Health care costs are rising. Medicare and Social Security are going broke," Ryan said. "The Congressional Budget Office says if we don't act, we'll have a debt crisis. And if that happens, the most vulnerable will suffer first and worst. This debt weighs down our economy even today. ... We can't kick the can down the road anymore. We've got to get a handle on our debt -- now."

Senate Budget Chair Patty Murray (D-WA) made clear Wednesday that Democrats aren't going to enact GOP priorities without addressing some of their own.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 30 2013 19:52 GMT
#11686
without new taxes? easy, they just have to agree to reductions in military spending. rofl.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21705 Posts
October 30 2013 19:54 GMT
#11687
On October 31 2013 04:52 zlefin wrote:
without new taxes? easy, they just have to agree to reductions in military spending. rofl.

or fix the current tax loopholes.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 19:57:19
October 30 2013 19:57 GMT
#11688
not sure if there's THAT many loopholes; they should cut and streamline military spending anyways.
(and social security of course).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10722 Posts
October 30 2013 20:16 GMT
#11689
cutting social security is bad for the economy, just as bad if not worse than raising taxes.
ddrddrddrddr
Profile Joined August 2010
1344 Posts
October 30 2013 20:16 GMT
#11690
No military reduction because of jobs and defending freedoms and support our troops and red commies in China and blah blah blah.

Next idea?
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6220 Posts
October 30 2013 20:51 GMT
#11691
On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 01:08 heliusx wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:05 DoubleReed wrote:
Castro isn't even the leader anymore. Why do we still have sanctions against Cuba?

Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch.

We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them.


Why? Cuba no longer is a threat in any way. Can you think of any reasons besides ZOMG commies?

My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined.

Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country.

China gets a pass but isn't the opening up to the world and trading the thing that made them able to raise all those people out of poverty. I don't ser why Cuba would be different although admittedly I don't know a lot about the political situation in Cuba.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 20:57:26
October 30 2013 20:53 GMT
#11692
On October 31 2013 05:16 Velr wrote:
cutting social security is bad for the economy, just as bad if not worse than raising taxes.

It wouldn't be that bad to cut SSI for NEETs and mildy disabled people who could potentially work. Number of unemployed seeking employment would rise, and wages for unskilled non-minimum wage labor might fall, but more people could actually be working.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10722 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 21:11:53
October 30 2013 21:10 GMT
#11693
creating jobs that pay so little, that you still need to give out foodstamps and other help programs does basically nothing to your economy, you need people to buy stuff, social security assures that. Cutting social security means cutting potential customers.

Well... except if you want to exploit people china style... But i seriously hope thats not what your proposing.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
October 30 2013 21:16 GMT
#11694
On October 31 2013 05:51 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote:
On October 31 2013 01:08 heliusx wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:05 DoubleReed wrote:
Castro isn't even the leader anymore. Why do we still have sanctions against Cuba?

Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch.

We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them.


Why? Cuba no longer is a threat in any way. Can you think of any reasons besides ZOMG commies?

My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined.

Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country.

China gets a pass but isn't the opening up to the world and trading the thing that made them able to raise all those people out of poverty. I don't ser why Cuba would be different although admittedly I don't know a lot about the political situation in Cuba.
China gets a pass because since the 70s it was an anti-Soviet ally for the Americans. Thats why Republicans are still paranoid about Russia -- hence Mitt Romney labeling them as America's number 1 geopolitical foe -- while China keeps on trucking. Cuba just choose wrongly in 1960s when the Soviets and Chinese split up, if they had sided with China they'd be golden too.
NPF
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1635 Posts
October 30 2013 21:19 GMT
#11695
On October 31 2013 05:51 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 01:13 Sermokala wrote:
On October 31 2013 01:08 heliusx wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:57 Sermokala wrote:
On October 31 2013 00:05 DoubleReed wrote:
Castro isn't even the leader anymore. Why do we still have sanctions against Cuba?

Raul castro is the leader of cuba so your wrong. And raul was always the more ruthless of the bunch.

We can warm relations all we want but Im still not for a communist dictator that close to us. At the least we should expect free and fair elections even if raul stays in power with them.


Why? Cuba no longer is a threat in any way. Can you think of any reasons besides ZOMG commies?

My post was about the moral reasons about rewarding a violent dictator not about them being commies. China gets a pass for bringing more people out of poverty then the rest of the world combined.

Opening our economy to them will only strengthen rauls power hold on the country.

China gets a pass but isn't the opening up to the world and trading the thing that made them able to raise all those people out of poverty. I don't ser why Cuba would be different although admittedly I don't know a lot about the political situation in Cuba.


Cuba is actually a super popular tourist destination during winter or study breaks in Canada. Often people go down, tip a few dollars and buy/bring school supply presents for local children. So in that sense Cuba resorts are a bit open to a lot of Canadian tourists.
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 21:36:23
October 30 2013 21:28 GMT
#11696
On October 31 2013 06:10 Velr wrote:
creating jobs that pay so little, that you still need to give out foodstamps and other help programs does basically nothing to your economy, you need people to buy stuff, social security assures that. Cutting social security means cutting potential customers.

Well... except if you want to exploit people china style... But i seriously hope thats not what your proposing.

But the whole reason those jobs would come in to being would be to add revenue to some sort of enterprise. For example, let's say that you get hired to sell toys at $10/hr. Even if you might personally net just a little bit more money than you did while on SS, and although you may still receive food benefits / reduced costs for some things, you are still actually increasing the rate of commerce by moving more money around, and now the government does not have to support you as much. Win-win. Also companies get benefits for hiring people that have been out of work for a long time, which of course does not ensure that you will be hired to but does help when it comes to low wage jobs.

For the ones that do not find employment, their family would (hopefully)support them, which is less than ideal but at least diverts costs from the government. I suppose you could enlist in the military as well. I would not advocate cutting SS for people that physically cannot actually work or are much too mentally ill to hold a job, but to be honest I know multiple people on SSI / similar benefits programs that could work and contribute. There are also total bullshit reasons to be on SSI, like from injuries and conditions that arise from complications related to obesity.

Of course, SS reform will not pass in the foreseeable future anyway because it would be political suicide.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
October 30 2013 22:12 GMT
#11697
On October 31 2013 05:16 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
No military reduction because of jobs and defending freedoms and support our troops and red commies in China and blah blah blah.

Next idea?

Military spending is already being reduced.

Let's cut healthcare spending.
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
October 30 2013 22:13 GMT
#11698
On October 31 2013 07:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 05:16 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
No military reduction because of jobs and defending freedoms and support our troops and red commies in China and blah blah blah.

Next idea?

Military spending is already being reduced.

Let's cut healthcare spending.


1: by how much over how long?
2: how would that in any conceivable way be a good idea?
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-30 22:16:49
October 30 2013 22:16 GMT
#11699
On October 31 2013 07:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2013 05:16 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
No military reduction because of jobs and defending freedoms and support our troops and red commies in China and blah blah blah.

Next idea?

Military spending is already being reduced.

Let's cut healthcare spending.


Let's do it.

I have an awesome plan: single-payer. ^^

If that's too extreme, let's just go with price controls. ^^
Writer
screamingpalm
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1527 Posts
October 30 2013 22:20 GMT
#11700
No more cuts to safety net programs please. Wife just lost her job again, just as stimulus money ran out to cut our food stamps... if employers want to get their high from being pricks on a power trip and fire people for no fucking reason, fine. Just make sure safety net programs are in place thx. Good thing we live in a state where it's actually possible to get unemployment when this happens. Unlike the red state I used to live in where I was denied after getting fired while on FMLA.
MMT University is coming! http://www.mmtuniversity.org/
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