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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 17 2016 15:42 GMT
#85921
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium5232 Posts
July 17 2016 15:46 GMT
#85922
How is mainstream media coverage from the start of his run, not mainstream? It's not because he's not part of the staple republican party that he wasn't mainstream. And even if you were right about that point, the end result is still him being a presedential candidate, meaning you can choose between him or Hillary to become president. It doesn't become more mainstream than that, regardless of the way he got there.

He became popular, more popular than Bush, Rubio and Cruz. What's your point? If a person becomes more popular, no matter what his rhetoric and policies are (because they're fucking stupid on Trump's side, but I guess they weren't alot better from the other Republicans trying to run), he became the most "loved" on the Republican's side, which got him the votes. American way of voting, is a very weird thing, where you can get votes based on dragging your opponents through the mud instead of talking policy.

I can kind of get behind your third point. People might become more open to practise their fucked up views once they find it's acceptable to do so. However, for example, I doubt someone might become more racist or start activities related to racism which harms other human beings, because one rising politician enables them to. Suddenly a politician validates their views so they suddenly will start to feel comfortable to act on these views?
Or do you actually mean the policies advocated by the politican are detrimental to other people if he actually gets to office and is able to enforce them?
Taxes are for Terrans
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 17 2016 15:49 GMT
#85923
This along with terrorist attacks in Europe is how Trump will become POTUS.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Soap
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Brazil1546 Posts
July 17 2016 15:52 GMT
#85924
On July 17 2016 23:58 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2016 23:45 Soap wrote:
The debate feels stifled because the left is acting much like a religion, as if globalization, immigration, interventionism or welfare state are inherently good things and those who don't see it haven't been enlightened.

lol, not only does this characterization directly conflict with the rise of Sanders Democrats, it can very easily be flipped and applied equally to the rhetoric of the right. That you or anyone thinks that only "the left" is self-assured in its policy approaches speaks more to your ignorance than anything else. Seriously, it's as though you've literally never heard a Republican lawmaker speak before.


Sanders and the Republican establishment have already lost. Besides, I'm talking exactly about calling people ignorant. You're not defending your position, you're just being rude.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18870 Posts
July 17 2016 15:53 GMT
#85925
On July 18 2016 00:52 Soap wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 17 2016 23:58 farvacola wrote:
On July 17 2016 23:45 Soap wrote:
The debate feels stifled because the left is acting much like a religion, as if globalization, immigration, interventionism or welfare state are inherently good things and those who don't see it haven't been enlightened.

lol, not only does this characterization directly conflict with the rise of Sanders Democrats, it can very easily be flipped and applied equally to the rhetoric of the right. That you or anyone thinks that only "the left" is self-assured in its policy approaches speaks more to your ignorance than anything else. Seriously, it's as though you've literally never heard a Republican lawmaker speak before.


Sanders and the Republican establishment have already lost. Besides, I'm talking exactly about calling people ignorant. You're not defending your position, you're just being rude.

Your unwillingness to understand how silly it is to claim that "the left is acting much like a religion" does not make calling that out rude.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
July 17 2016 16:27 GMT
#85926
On July 18 2016 00:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This along with terrorist attacks in Europe is how Trump will become POTUS.

https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/754703448050921473


I remember when that reporter was killed on camera a year or so ago, and GH predicted that killings like that would start to become more frequent unless America got its shit together. It's starting to look like he was right : (
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 17 2016 16:43 GMT
#85927
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-17 16:50:28
July 17 2016 16:48 GMT
#85928
On July 18 2016 01:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/754708273375375360

I am all about people owning firm arms and using them safely. This is just provocation with no other intent. Also not super safe either.

On July 18 2016 01:27 Mercy13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2016 00:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This along with terrorist attacks in Europe is how Trump will become POTUS.

https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/754703448050921473


I remember when that reporter was killed on camera a year or so ago, and GH predicted that killings like that would start to become more frequent unless America got its shit together. It's starting to look like he was right : (


I really hope we don't see a rise in violence like that in the 70-80s. Years of government stagnation and inaction has lead to a lot of frustrated, angry and dejected citizens on all sides.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-17 16:59:36
July 17 2016 16:54 GMT
#85929
http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-officers-dead-shooting-baton-rouge/story?id=40646533

Reports are stating that it was an altercation between civilians, and when cops intervened, one of the civilians had a rifle. It wasn't a targeted attack on the police.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting/

Although CNN has it described otherwise, possibly, so I'd keep an eye on the news.
Yargh
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 17 2016 17:11 GMT
#85930
Trump campaign has said it will addresses the shooting tomorrow at the convention. Political climate tense such as 68 and 72 but this time with larger protests and now open carry....
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
July 17 2016 17:33 GMT
#85931
Does Obama have any international success other than killing Osama bin Laden? Clearly, he isn't doing enough against Russia, ISIS, etc. He seems weak there.
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9332 Posts
July 17 2016 17:36 GMT
#85932
Depends how you define international success
You're now breathing manually
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6642 Posts
July 17 2016 17:40 GMT
#85933
On July 17 2016 22:36 Uldridge wrote:
@Silicon valley guy story:
Or, you know, people could stop judging people for wanting to vote for someone and accept they can have their own reasons why they want to vote for Trump, maybe engage in some sort of constructive discussion instead of blindly excising this person from your social circle. It's narrowminded and it may even be for the better if that's the subject you get stigmatized for. Shows just how shallow these people are.

It's like Scientology, cutting people off is cult-like behavior.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 17 2016 17:51 GMT
#85934
Yes, success has to be prefaced with the understanding that the leaders of congress had a meeting back in 2012 where they planned to oppose every single one of Obama's initiatives, regardless of merit. The Iran deal required putting congress in the political equivalent of an arm bar until they submitted and allowed it to pass.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
July 17 2016 17:55 GMT
#85935
On July 18 2016 02:33 Shield wrote:
Does Obama have any international success other than killing Osama bin Laden? Clearly, he isn't doing enough against Russia, ISIS, etc. He seems weak there.

Repaired the damage Bush did to international relation, restoration of Cuban relation, dismantling the Iranian nuclear program.
And probably more im not remembering right now.

There has been some failures tho. I wouldn't really blame Russia on him. I blame that on the EU lacking backbone when Putin started a proxy war in the Ukraine, our backyard, our problem.
Libya wasn't his best moment. The Syrian line in the sand was just terrible.
ISIS is more a strategic choice then a failure imo, the US could go in hard and remove the state but then you just have the underlying terrorist network with nothing better to do then plan attacks against the US. Now they are mostly busy trying to maintain their country while bleeding resources and manpower left and right.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-17 18:10:28
July 17 2016 18:03 GMT
#85936
On July 18 2016 00:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This along with terrorist attacks in Europe is how Trump will become POTUS.

Because he's willing to speak about it while the other side is more interested in trying not to acknowledge the more troubling elements in BLM / Islam?

On July 18 2016 02:55 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2016 02:33 Shield wrote:
Does Obama have any international success other than killing Osama bin Laden? Clearly, he isn't doing enough against Russia, ISIS, etc. He seems weak there.

Repaired the damage Bush did to international relation, restoration of Cuban relation, dismantling the Iranian nuclear program.
And probably more im not remembering right now.

There has been some failures tho. I wouldn't really blame Russia on him. I blame that on the EU lacking backbone when Putin started a proxy war in the Ukraine, our backyard, our problem.
Libya wasn't his best moment. The Syrian line in the sand was just terrible.
ISIS is more a strategic choice then a failure imo, the US could go in hard and remove the state but then you just have the underlying terrorist network with nothing better to do then plan attacks against the US. Now they are mostly busy trying to maintain their country while bleeding resources and manpower left and right.

He pursued a few shitty projects (partially under the direction of Hillary as SoS) but for the most part he was alright. Started lots of shit with Russia and China by encouraging some land disputes, but frankly so would any other president since it's part of the US's more general long-term policy. Solved a lot of the Bush-era Iraq and general diplomacy issues. Overall, his presidency was passable on the FP end. It's neither a major achievement he will be remembered for, nor something that he will be ridiculed for for years to come. Wasn't really his big campaign issue either.

Hillary, I'm more worried about. She's had her hand on many ultimately short-sighted and stupid FP decisions and her tenure as SoS was a terrible one. She's a Republican as far as FP is concerned.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 17 2016 18:06 GMT
#85937
On July 18 2016 03:03 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 18 2016 00:49 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
This along with terrorist attacks in Europe is how Trump will become POTUS.

Because he's willing to speak about it while the other side is more interested in trying not to acknowledge the more troubling elements in BLM / Islam?

Yes, he will use fear and uncertainty by blaming a nebulous, faceless enemy that can never be defeated. And run on teh Law and Order ticket, much like Nixon. It will be the "war on terror" propaganda all over again.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Cowboy24
Profile Joined June 2016
94 Posts
July 17 2016 18:19 GMT
#85938
On July 18 2016 00:46 Uldridge wrote:
American way of voting, is a very weird thing, where you can get votes based on dragging your opponents through the mud instead of talking policy.

Assuming you are truly interested in policy (I've found few Trump critics are):

+ Show Spoiler +

Build the Wall: Largely symbolic, but still an effective measure against one specific type of illegal immigration. It would also signal to potential immigrants a sense of America's priorities concerning them. No guest to this country should ever feel entirely at home. They should always be aware of the fact that they are in my country and they do not have the same rights and privileges here that I do.

Force Mexico to pay for it: This is just classic imperialism, and I love it. Take a weaker neighbor and publicly bend them to your will. It has the obvious benefit of us not spending a dime on the wall, but it also has the added benefit of sending shock-waves through the geopolitical world, sending a clearer message of American exceptionalism than anything since the Iraq War (the military side of it, not the diplomatic crap that came after). This is genius.

Crush ISIS; take the oil?
Everyone wants ISIS destroyed. I know the special interests and the politicians of both parties want this thing to fester until it's too late and we've got a permanent insurgency; but everyone else in the country just wants them dead. We have the technology to make them dead, we just don't have the political will on the part of Congress to declare war, or the Presidency to ask for it. Just crushing them would be a national catharsis, so I'm not sure if we want to take the oil or just focus on drawing down our overseas presence. That we'll have to leave to smarter people. For right now, ISIS needs to be destroyed.

Tariffs and trade: This is pretty self-explanatory. Either you think America should be a service economy doomed to eventual debt-destruction or you think we should try to avoid that clearly avoidable scenario.

Tax reform: Larry Kudlow loves it. It looks pretty awesome. I can't see how massive tax-cuts to everyone could ever be a bad thing, but who knows right?

Social issues: This one really ticks me off. You damn social libertarians are getting everything you could ever want or expect out of the Republicans and we don't get even a little bit of credit for it. I could have predicted all those "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" mantras over the years from Democrats were a pack of lies, but I expected a little more grace out of you! We straight up elected a Planned Parenthood praising, pro-gay marriage, New York liberal and it still wasn't enough for you!

Education: Our education system is pathetic. It's based on an agricultural model, encourages mass laziness and sloth, teaches children to be ashamed of their country and it's traditions, has resulted in mass functioning-illiteracy (if you don't know phonics, you don't know how to read. It's that simple), and now has resulted in abstract, meaningless math. Basically the only thing it seems to do well is get teenage boys laid by hot, lonely teachers. Trump could literally abolish every single school in America and it would have a net-benefit on the general welfare.

As it is, he supports school choice. Which is basically a panacea for education because it allows the National government to wash their hands of the whole thing, and parents can teach their kids whatever the hell they want, however the hell they want. Pretty radical idea these days, but it worked pretty well for all of human history.

Law and Order: Not much to say on this. We need to punish the criminals and bring the jobs back. More police, not less. More guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens, not less. More community responsibility and engagement. Honestly, anything but "punish criminals and bring jobs back" is probably going to be empty platitudes or shameless politicking.

Welfare: We will privatize those programs. If Republicans ever get into power again, this will happen. We honestly might as well do it now. Democrats have lost this one.


I mean, how deep do you want Trump to go? How deep do you want his surrogates to go? Somehow, someway, you Trump critics have got to stop pretending you not liking his policies means he doesn't have any. Trump has actually put out one of the most substantive campaigns ever. He's largely eschewed the nonsense "policy plans" and "49-point programs" that are always overly-detailed and don't even come close to representing the reality of a negotiated bill.
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium5232 Posts
July 17 2016 18:39 GMT
#85939
Thats not even what I'm talking about. I shouldn't really be invested in policy, because it doesn't really affect me.
How often, during these so called "debates" is policy actually discussed? Mudslinging is more important than actually debating eachother on what they want to do.
Most of the policies you've listed are vague as best, I'll love the moment once they ask him the big questions when both nominees debate eachother. It'll be glorious.

This is what I know from the American nominees and their policies just by following it loosely, what I caught by people living there and not going too deep:
-Hillary: she's a people pleasing shady Democrat which will turn whichever way the wind is blowing. Her policies are mostly a continuation of Obama's I guess. What will she do concretely? I don't fucking know.
-Trump: he has a main theme (the wall, the wall!) who talks a big talk with, who can't even produce a singly eloquent sentence (howmany of his words are single syllable?). He uses mainstream events to further his cause where he's able to look like the good guy that knows how to fix the shit (Paris, Nice, Belgium, Brexit). Ironically he fails in those situations, cfr the speech he gave in Scotland after the Brexit.

Both nominees are detestable.
Taxes are for Terrans
Cowboy24
Profile Joined June 2016
94 Posts
July 17 2016 18:57 GMT
#85940
I'm curious what "big questions" you think Trump will be incapable of answering.
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