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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1558

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
January 03 2015 21:37 GMT
#31141
wow are we really ?

i think we need to abolish cia, that thing is like the nazi germany itself by design.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/12/09/3601312/17-disgraceful-facts-contained-in-the-torture-report/
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 03 2015 21:41 GMT
#31142
On January 04 2015 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Jonny, to what degree do you think the United States is like or is heading towards Nazi Germany?

Not very, and if I don't like his opinions I won't vote for him. He's still a very accomplished and smart guy, and that's what matters when talking about how qualified someone is.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 22:05:50
January 03 2015 22:01 GMT
#31143
On January 04 2015 06:34 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2015 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Jonny, to what degree do you think the United States is like or is heading towards Nazi Germany?

Well, police brutality, NSA surveillance, CIA torture, and agencies like the ATF and DEA being judge, jury, and executioner on anything remotely related to their task.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at! Surface level, broad stroke descriptions of government agencies and hot topic current events are about all conservatives like Carson can conjure up when asked to justify a Nazi comparison. Let me be clear; if you think that the bloating of US executive authority, as exemplified by the CIA torture debate, the NSA's information gathering, or a mere gesticulation towards the ATF or DEA, warrants a comparison with Nazi Germany, you are either entirely ignorant of exactly what went down in Germany or are playing cheap tricks with how pathetic most people's understanding of history truly is. Yes, there are genuinely concerning dynamics of power and decision-making among executive agencies that must be revisited, but the mere fact that we can even have this debate in a public space makes any mention of Nazism hilariously off-base. By the time the Nazi political and social machine got rolling, it exerted an endemic sort of influence on Germany that is unlike anything the world has ever seen, save for maybe somewhere like North Korea. In other words, the fundamental nature of Nazism as seen in early 20th century Germany deals in far more than mere displays of executive governmental authority, so when that is all that is brought to the table in support of this populist, Godwin-defying notion that men like Carson aren't obviously ill-suited for any sort of public office, not to mention the presidency, you'll have to express the incredulity of others
On January 04 2015 06:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2015 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Jonny, to what degree do you think the United States is like or is heading towards Nazi Germany?

Not very, and if I don't like his opinions I won't vote for him. He's still a very accomplished and smart guy, and that's what matters when talking about how qualified someone is.

Yeah, you can go ahead and pretend that you ignore a potential candidate's rhetoric, for today. The moment you get all riled up in the face of liberal rhetoric (Warren, my dear, that's your cue) that is tactical on its face, I expect a 180 will be in order.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
January 03 2015 22:02 GMT
#31144
terrible nazi comparisons matter too.
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 22:15:36
January 03 2015 22:14 GMT
#31145
Legislators in the 24 states where Republicans now hold total control plan to push a series of aggressive policy initiatives in the coming year aimed at limiting the power of the federal government and rekindling the culture wars.

The unprecedented breadth of the Republican majority — the party now controls 31 governorships and 68 of 98 partisan legislative chambers — all but guarantees a new tide of conservative laws. Republicans plan to launch a fresh assault on the Common Core education standards, press abortion regulations, cut personal and corporate income taxes and take up dozens of measures challenging the power of labor unions and the Environmental Protection Agency.

Before Election Day, the GOP controlled 59 partisan legislative chambers across the country. The increase to 68 gives Republicans six more chambers than their previous record in the modern era, set after special elections in 2011 and 2012.

Republicans also reduced the number of states where Democrats control both the governor’s office and the legislatures from 13 to seven.

Republicans in at least nine states are planning to use their power to pass “right to work” legislation, which would allow employees to opt out of joining a labor union. Twenty-four states already have such laws on the books, and new measures have been or will be proposed in Wisconsin, New Mexico, New Hampshire, Ohio, Colorado, Kentucky, Montana, Pennsylvania and Missouri.


In Tennessee, voters gave the legislature new powers to regulate abortion, and state House Speaker Beth Harwell (R) has said her chamber will take up three measures requiring mandatory counseling, a waiting period and stricter inspections of clinics.

Conservative activists also are targeting Common Core, the national education standards adopted by 46 states and the District of Columbia over the past few years. Opposition from parent and community groups has become a hot political issue on the right over the past year, leading three states — Indiana, Oklahoma and South Carolina — to drop out of the program.

Some states will attempt to join those three in leaving the program altogether. Others will try to change testing requirements or prevent the sharing of education data with federal officials. In recent interviews, several Republican governors who support Common Core say they expect debate in their forthcoming legislative sessions.

“The biggest concern and opposition you hear from conservative legislators is, ‘We don’t want Washington dictating curricula,’ ” said Utah state Sen. Curtis Bramble, a Republican.

Republicans also are likely to take up measures diluting the power of the EPA, which has proposed state-by-state targets for reducing carbon emissions. A dozen states have challenged proposed EPA regulations on power plants in federal court.

New Republican governors in states such as Arkansas and Arizona and legislators in North Carolina, North Dakota and elsewhere will prioritize cutting personal or corporate income tax rates. States that have experienced a revenue boom from energy taxes will have to contend with falling receipts as the price of oil declines. Tax revenue in other states is coming in slower than expected, presenting a challenge in many of the 49 states that require balanced annual budgets.

“With the increasing costs of Medicaid and education, balancing the budget is going to be a challenge,” said South Dakota state Sen. Deb Peters (R), who chairs the Appropriations Committee.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-03 22:23:41
January 03 2015 22:23 GMT
#31146
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2015 06:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 04 2015 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Jonny, to what degree do you think the United States is like or is heading towards Nazi Germany?

Not very, and if I don't like his opinions I won't vote for him. He's still a very accomplished and smart guy, and that's what matters when talking about how qualified someone is.

Yeah, you can go ahead and pretend that you ignore a potential candidate's rhetoric, for today. The moment you get all riled up in the face of liberal rhetoric (Warren, my dear, that's your cue) that is tactical on its face, I expect a 180 will be in order.

Eh? I'm not ignoring his rhetoric - I just said that I disagreed with it. Regardless, I don't see what his rhetoric has to do with his qualifications. What is your point?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 03 2015 23:14 GMT
#31147
DUBAI, Jan 3 (Reuters) - Iran denied on Saturday that it had reached an agreement with the United States to ship its surplus enriched uranium to Russia under new concessions aimed at clinching a comprehensive nuclear deal with six world powers.

The Associated Press, citing diplomats, said on Friday Tehran and Washington had tentatively agreed on a formula to ship to Russia much of the material that could potentially lead to manufacture of atomic arms by the Islamic republic.

It said negotiators had drawn up a catalog for the first time at their December meeting in Geneva outlining areas of potential accord and differences in their 12-year nuclear dispute.

Iran's foreign ministry spokeswoman Marzieh Afkham said "no agreement on any nuclear topic" had been reached.

"Such news is spread out of political motives and its goal is to tarnish the climate of the talks and make it more complicated to reach a settlement," the state IRNA news agency quoted her as saying.

The semi-official ISNA agency, citing an "informed source," also denied the report: "The topic of transferring (enriched) uranium abroad has been circulating for a while, but we haven't had any agreement in this regard."

The head of Iran's atomic energy agency, Ali Akbar Salehi, told worshippers at Friday prayers that the long nuclear conflict was drawing to an end.

"Have no doubt that the nuclear issue will be resolved in Iran's favor and we will soon celebrate Iran's victory," he was quoted as saying by Mehr News.

Iran and the six powers "P5+1" -- the United States, Russia, China, France, Britain and Germany -- are to resume low-level talks on Tehran's nuclear activities in Geneva on Jan 15, but wide gaps remain in their positions.

An interim accord struck on Nov. 24, 2013, yielded steps by Iran to curb aspects of its sensitive nuclear activity, including higher-grade enrichment, in return for a measure of relief from economic sanctions. But last November, the two sides failed for a second time to meet a self-imposed deadline on ending the standoff and extended the period until June 30, 2015.

Among sticking points are the scope of uranium enrichment, the number of centrifuges and pace and sequencing of sanctions relief.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
tadL
Profile Joined September 2010
Croatia679 Posts
January 04 2015 00:53 GMT
#31148
USA cant turn into a nazi style germany for a simple fact. they don't trust their government at all as a majority. that this country is from an outside perspective not really a democracy because right wing and hard right wing just exists. But do not mix this up. USA will never turn into such a thing. For this you would first need an army that can win wars ^^
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
January 04 2015 01:18 GMT
#31149
^wat
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 04 2015 02:03 GMT
#31150
i've seen this 'USA is weimar!!1' hot take on a number of places lately, and it is simply not true.

the NSA and the police can be seen as taking out of line measures, but they are conservative agencies and have no desire to extend totalitarian control. totalitarian control is first and foremost a political tool designed to maintain power, set against political enemies.

this does not make offenses by these agencies okay, far from it. but it is not a straightforward relation from a set of aggressive behavior to a totalitarian eventuality.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-04 02:17:27
January 04 2015 02:15 GMT
#31151
sure the US is not suddenly going to turn into a classical dictatorship, but the agencies and the police and prison sector and whatever are simply completely out of control and not just out of line. I honestly wonder how big the percentage of people is that work either in the military, intelligence, security and prison/police sector. Not a rhetorical question, I couldn't actually find a number.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 04 2015 02:55 GMT
#31152
On January 04 2015 11:15 Nyxisto wrote:
sure the US is not suddenly going to turn into a classical dictatorship, but the agencies and the police and prison sector and whatever are simply completely out of control and not just out of line. I honestly wonder how big the percentage of people is that work either in the military, intelligence, security and prison/police sector. Not a rhetorical question, I couldn't actually find a number.

Try bls.gov. Police and patrol officers ~600K, prison guards ~500K, googling for military ~1.3mm active, ~850K reserve so maybe ~1% of the population?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
January 04 2015 02:58 GMT
#31153
well shit 500k prison guard is still pretty crazy
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8778 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-04 03:23:27
January 04 2015 03:21 GMT
#31154
I know it is a business to run prisons in the US, but only 100k less prison guards than actual police men? that number is very high indeed.

and no the US is not going full fascism/totalitarianism. but there are worrying tendencies. cleary even cooler heads can see something went awry along the road to undisputed awesomeness?

what irks me the most is that a lot of your "best practice models" usually find their way to europe... despite better knowledge.
fawns over the new helipad's rave reviews.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24512 Posts
January 04 2015 03:45 GMT
#31155
On January 04 2015 11:58 oneofthem wrote:
well shit 500k prison guard is still pretty crazy


That's ~1 enforcer (police/guard) for every 2-3 prisoners. I'm kind of curious how that compares internationally. Also the ratio of cops vs guards.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-04 04:17:18
January 04 2015 04:15 GMT
#31156
Well 1% is less than I thought, I wonder what the "contribution" to the GDP of these sectors is though. Also crazy that apparently about 1% of the American population is in prison. (and 3% of people are either in prison or on probation&parole)
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
January 04 2015 04:17 GMT
#31157
On January 04 2015 09:53 tadL wrote:
For this you would first need an army that can win wars ^^


WOW.

not sure if you are trolling or not bothering yourself with reading some history, indeed usa has won many many many wars.

in my case, the most important one was American Revolutionary War.

small colonies with many origins but mostly british, for the first time in the history, gain their freedom by beating the shit out of worlds greatest empire, Britain. that shit aint no joke.

and count how many victories you see there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 04 2015 04:47 GMT
#31158
On January 04 2015 07:01 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2015 06:34 Millitron wrote:
On January 04 2015 06:23 farvacola wrote:
Jonny, to what degree do you think the United States is like or is heading towards Nazi Germany?

Well, police brutality, NSA surveillance, CIA torture, and agencies like the ATF and DEA being judge, jury, and executioner on anything remotely related to their task.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at! Surface level, broad stroke descriptions of government agencies and hot topic current events are about all conservatives like Carson can conjure up when asked to justify a Nazi comparison. Let me be clear; if you think that the bloating of US executive authority, as exemplified by the CIA torture debate, the NSA's information gathering, or a mere gesticulation towards the ATF or DEA
You certainly picked three examples I wouldn't call exemplary executive overreach. The NSA blew up into its own thing, but I guess you could argue an executive/4th branch problem at its core. I'm fascinated by your choices here, farva.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 04 2015 04:56 GMT
#31159
On January 04 2015 13:15 Nyxisto wrote:
Well 1% is less than I thought, I wonder what the "contribution" to the GDP of these sectors is though. Also crazy that apparently about 1% of the American population is in prison. (and 3% of people are either in prison or on probation&parole)

[image loading]
link

About 5-7%.

As for number of prisoners, there's a lot of crime here and in the Americas as a whole. There was a recent NPR story on Honduras having a ridiculously high murder rate and how there's a connection with gangs from Los Angeles.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24512 Posts
January 04 2015 05:08 GMT
#31160
On January 04 2015 13:15 Nyxisto wrote:
Well 1% is less than I thought, I wonder what the "contribution" to the GDP of these sectors is though. Also crazy that apparently about 1% of the American population is in prison. (and 3% of people are either in prison or on probation&parole)


I think the NYPD are doing a pretty good job showing a lot of "crime" (and the prison population by extension) is somewhat manufactured by overzealous policing and ridiculous laws. Have to love that profit motive though!
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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