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Gender Neutral Child revealed to male at age 5 - Page 2

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WightyCity
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada887 Posts
May 09 2012 21:27 GMT
#21
seems like very weird things to do.
90% watching it 8% talking about it and 2% playing it - sc2
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 21:29:37
May 09 2012 21:28 GMT
#22
I'm still struggling with how the clothes a child wears has any significant impact on what kind of person he or she becomes. The social roles still exist even if you try to raise your child to be ignorant of them, and he is going to decide he belongs to one or the other or neither based on his own feelings, not on what he wore while swimming between ages 0 and 5. What you can do is educate and talk to your child to help him understand it's okay for him to be one way or the other. These parents are just attention whores who turned their child into a science project for their own amusement.
ddrddrddrddr
Profile Joined August 2010
1344 Posts
May 09 2012 21:30 GMT
#23
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.
neo_sporin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States516 Posts
May 09 2012 21:34 GMT
#24
On May 10 2012 06:22 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:19 Doctorbeat wrote:
It has been well documented that gender identity is by far and large decided in the womb.

However, I don't see how this 'experiment' is to the benefit of the child. From 2-6 children develop a lot of their brains, which will basically establish their character for the rest of their lives. I hope the child doesn't experience any adverse effects later in life.

What documentation is there to argue that gender identity is decided in the womb?


I have to agree with this. I would highly doubt that it is "well documented" that it is decided in the womb. I wouldnt be surprised if it was, however I would be very interested in an experiment proving gender identity is decided that early.

Note for the uninformed--gender identity is how one perceives themselves to be as opposed to how they are physically. IE generally mentioned when discussing transgenders as their physical body does not match their own perception of what they believe themselves to be
Maxd11
Profile Joined July 2011
United States680 Posts
May 09 2012 21:35 GMT
#25
Why bother running the risk of ruining your own kid's life? Doesn't seem worth it to me
I looked in the mirror and saw biupilm69t
ArchAngelSC
Profile Joined April 2012
England706 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 21:39:30
May 09 2012 21:38 GMT
#26
On May 10 2012 06:30 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.

So you're saying that a pink, girls swimsuit, is NOT feminine and/or gender specific?
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
May 09 2012 21:40 GMT
#27
On May 10 2012 06:22 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:19 Doctorbeat wrote:
It has been well documented that gender identity is by far and large decided in the womb.

However, I don't see how this 'experiment' is to the benefit of the child. From 2-6 children develop a lot of their brains, which will basically establish their character for the rest of their lives. I hope the child doesn't experience any adverse effects later in life.

What documentation is there to argue that gender identity is decided in the womb?


From a book by Dick Swaab ( http://mindthebrain.neuroscience-cognition.org/?q=DickSwaab ):

Translated (the book is in Dutch):

All data suggests that gender problems originate in the womb. Small changes have been found in genes that involve the effect of hormones on the development of the brain, that increase the chance of transsexuality. Abnormal hormone levels of the child in the womb and medicine that disrupt the breakdown of sex hormones taken by the mother during pregnancy can increase the chance of transsexuality.
The sexual differentiation of our genitalia occurs in the first months of pregnancy and the sexual differentiation of the brain in the second half of pregnancy. As these two processes happen in different periods during pregnancy, the theory is that these processes have been influenced independently of eachother with transsexuality. If that is true we would expect MtF (Male to Female) transsexuals to have female structures in their brains and the other way around. In 1995 we have indeed found such a reversal of the gender difference in a small structure in the brains of deceased donors. We published that in Nature. This area was the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis (BST), a small brain structure that is involved in many aspects of sexual behaviour. The central part of this area, is twice as big for men and contains twice as many neurons. In MtF transsexuals we found a female Bed Nucleus. The few FtM transsexuals we could study did indeed have a male Bed Nucleus. We could as such rule out that the reversal of the gender difference in transsexuals has been caused by changing hormone levels in adulthood. The reversal has to have happened during development of the brain.


Hope this helps you out!
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
Crushinator
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands2138 Posts
May 09 2012 21:41 GMT
#28
On May 10 2012 06:34 neo_sporin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:22 Roe wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:19 Doctorbeat wrote:
It has been well documented that gender identity is by far and large decided in the womb.

However, I don't see how this 'experiment' is to the benefit of the child. From 2-6 children develop a lot of their brains, which will basically establish their character for the rest of their lives. I hope the child doesn't experience any adverse effects later in life.

What documentation is there to argue that gender identity is decided in the womb?


I have to agree with this. I would highly doubt that it is "well documented" that it is decided in the womb. I wouldnt be surprised if it was, however I would be very interested in an experiment proving gender identity is decided that early.

Note for the uninformed--gender identity is how one perceives themselves to be as opposed to how they are physically. IE generally mentioned when discussing transgenders as their physical body does not match their own perception of what they believe themselves to be


Studies of italian hermaphrodite children that were raised as the opposite sex from what they were genetically, almost always asserted their desire to associate with the other gender. Most spontaneously proclaimed they were a boy, before the age of 5, if they were raised a girl, and vice-versa. There is plenty of other evidence that gender, aswell as sex, has a large biological component.

I don't think this way of raising a child does much harm, but its kind of stupid and unnecessary.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 09 2012 21:44 GMT
#29
On May 10 2012 06:38 ArchAngelSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:30 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.

So you're saying that a pink, girls swimsuit, is NOT feminine and/or gender specific?


Pink used to be a male colour, blue for girls (not that colours need to have gender association) and there's nothing really wrong with a girls swimsuit if you don't associate it with girls.
ampson
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2355 Posts
May 09 2012 21:46 GMT
#30
Sucks for the kid. He's gonna have a tough time in society.
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
May 09 2012 21:50 GMT
#31
They have good intentions, but I highly doubt other people would leave the kid alone. People hate anything that's not perfectly the norm.
Kurr
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2338 Posts
May 09 2012 21:50 GMT
#32
On May 10 2012 06:46 ampson wrote:
Sucks for the kid. He's gonna have a tough time in society.


Yep. Psycho parents forcing their kid into awkward situation. Unlucky child is all I can say.

The parents are the people responsible for forming their child, especially in their early years. You don't need to make your child into a super-masculine boy, just raise him normally and it will be fine if you're responsible. But nope, want to prove a pointless point so let's fuck up the kid's life!

This child will have a messed up identity and they are even forcing him to wear a girl's blouse at school. For fucks sake, how could they possibly think this is a good idea?

Stories like this piss me off. Do you think the child would willingly outcast himself if he was old enough to understand everything going on? Of course not. When he's a teenager, he will be desperate to fit in like all teenagers, but he will be a ways behind because of his crazy parents. Kids are vicious, they will judge him permanently on this stuff.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ | ┻━┻ ︵╰(°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
May 09 2012 21:51 GMT
#33
On May 10 2012 06:50 Kurr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:46 ampson wrote:
Sucks for the kid. He's gonna have a tough time in society.


Yep. Psycho parents forcing their kid into awkward situation. Unlucky child is all I can say.

The parents are the people responsible for forming their child, especially in their early years. You don't need to make your child into a super-masculine boy, just raise him normally and it will be fine if you're responsible. But nope, want to prove a pointless point so let's fuck up the kid's life!

This child will have a messed up identity and they are even forcing him to wear a girl's blouse at school. For fucks sake, how could they possibly think this is a good idea?

Stories like this piss me off. Do you think the child would willingly outcast himself if he was old enough to understand everything going on? Of course not. When he's a teenager, he will be desperate to fit in like all teenagers, but he will be a ways behind because of his crazy parents. Kids are vicious, they will judge him permanently on this stuff.


Have you read the article? They ain't forcing shit on the kid. They let the kid decide how he wants to dress and what toys to play with.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
May 09 2012 21:52 GMT
#34
i dont mind the concept, I just feel bad for the kid when they go to school at 5 and get picked on until they graduate high school.

of course im fibbing a bit but I have to imagine these kids would stick out like sore thumbs just asking to get bullied.

Unfortunate.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Chronos.
Profile Joined February 2012
United States805 Posts
May 09 2012 21:53 GMT
#35
It's one thing to do that experiment when he's just an infant. He'll be able to play with things he really likes instead of stereotypical things and such, but then again there are a lot of kids who can do that. At my house we used to just have a toy box with all different toys in it and we weren't forced to play with any one type...

But to make the kid where a blouse when the school has a dress code stating what each kid is to wear is going to far. It's just clothes there's no reason to force him to wear a blouse just to make a point, not to mention all the other kids will notice this right away since they're all wearing the same things. Then he'll end up getting lots of questions from his teachers and peers, questions that he probably won't know how to answer.
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
May 09 2012 21:54 GMT
#36
Im worried hes going to get bullied...sure they want to make a statement to the world. But at the cost of their sons image in the face of his peers?
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
Sprungjeezy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1313 Posts
May 09 2012 21:55 GMT
#37
On May 10 2012 06:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:38 ArchAngelSC wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:30 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.

So you're saying that a pink, girls swimsuit, is NOT feminine and/or gender specific?


Pink used to be a male colour, blue for girls (not that colours need to have gender association) and there's nothing really wrong with a girls swimsuit if you don't associate it with girls.


What? As far as I can remember blue has ALWAYS been associated with baby boys and pink baby girls. As for the "experiment" (which in itself is disgusting, experimenting with your child's life, who depends on you for protection) having male clothes and female clothes in itself is limiting him to choosing one or the other, if they really wanted to give the opportunity for gender neutral, they ought to have ever type of clothing one could ask for so he can make his own decision. Instead they give him either girl or boy clothes.

I personally think the idea of experimenting with your own child in such a way that could easily remove him from a normal (or even tolerable) life revolting as bullying seems to only getting worse and I'll be the first to say that it is not my decision, but it should NOT be these parents' decision either.
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 21:58:57
May 09 2012 21:57 GMT
#38
Their kid is going to love them when he grows up. Intentionally isolating from all of his peers because they want to make a point? Basically sacrificing their son's social life.
5 bucks says this family relationship crashes and burns sometime into his teens, if this continues.

On May 10 2012 06:55 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:44 Slayer91 wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:38 ArchAngelSC wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:30 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.

So you're saying that a pink, girls swimsuit, is NOT feminine and/or gender specific?


Pink used to be a male colour, blue for girls (not that colours need to have gender association) and there's nothing really wrong with a girls swimsuit if you don't associate it with girls.


What? As far as I can remember blue has ALWAYS been associated with baby boys and pink baby girls.

If I'm correct, pink used to be the boys' color because it was seen more as a light red. When you see it as a red (which, I assume was darker farther back in time), it makes a lot more sense considering our societal beliefs on pink/light colors and masculinity.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
Doctorbeat
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands13241 Posts
May 09 2012 21:57 GMT
#39
On May 10 2012 06:55 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2012 06:44 Slayer91 wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:38 ArchAngelSC wrote:
On May 10 2012 06:30 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
You can't really argue that they're making him too feminine or too masculine, that actually carries the assumption that certain clothes are masculine and others are feminine in the first place. You can't make someone gender neutral by restricting them from things that are considered gender specific because nothing is inherently gender specific (except chasity belts... maybe). So this entire experience is flawed from the start.

So you're saying that a pink, girls swimsuit, is NOT feminine and/or gender specific?


Pink used to be a male colour, blue for girls (not that colours need to have gender association) and there's nothing really wrong with a girls swimsuit if you don't associate it with girls.


What? As far as I can remember blue has ALWAYS been associated with baby boys and pink baby girls. As for the "experiment" (which in itself is disgusting, experimenting with your child's life, who depends on you for protection) having male clothes and female clothes in itself is limiting him to choosing one or the other, if they really wanted to give the opportunity for gender neutral, they ought to have ever type of clothing one could ask for so he can make his own decision. Instead they give him either girl or boy clothes.

I personally think the idea of experimenting with your own child in such a way that could easily remove him from a normal (or even tolerable) life revolting as bullying seems to only getting worse and I'll be the first to say that it is not my decision, but it should NOT be these parents' decision either.


QI to the rescue!



Start at 2:30.
- TEAM LIQUID - doctorbeat on LoL
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 21:58:48
May 09 2012 21:58 GMT
#40
As far as you can remember, yes, but at least according to QI pink used to be (I mean like maybe everything before 100 years ago) a boys colour since it was associated with red and white which were strong bright colours and blue used to be girls because its a softer colour (virgin mary was always painted in blue for example)

edit lol the guy above me posted that exact episode of QI haha.
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