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Someone already said it, but I agree in principle with the following - Sex = being the biological one, while Gender = the societal (lame) construct.
The idea of the parents was essentialy good, in terms of not wanting to just raise yet another kid hanging on old, lame gender stereotypes, which should've die ages ago, however, the whole executing of the idea, forcing it on a being, who can't make his/her own mind is just not fair towards the little one. Instead, the parents should always put emphasis on choice, as to what the kid wants, in terms of toys and stuff, when he/she gets older to be able to make that choice. No emphasis on 'this is boy's/girl's stuff'. No saying that this and that is girls' or boy's, as that is what promotes the stereotypes, not the other way around.
I have a 9 years old son and I always make sure to explain him, that there's nothing like girl's or boy's toys or colours, etc. for example. Sure, there is an influence from the outside (school, other kids) in regards of the gender shit, but the best and the most fair thing I can do is to keep teaching my son to be open-minded and not fall into the stereotypes, without forcing him to wear some pink bullshit to make my point across..
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well there is that troll Sacha Baron Cohen
but that's aside the point, other small children don't know about porn they don't learn about that till they are 10 and are allowed to use the internet and google boobs cause they think its funny nvm kids get ipods and smart phones at that age now.
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When you are a child and young adult you typically want nothing more than to fit in with your peers, to feel included, to not feel very different, to not be an outcast. These parents are forgetting how important this type of social inclusion is for development and confidence, even if it is based on really stupid things like norms, fads, and stereotypes.
I wear clothes that a male wears because it's what society expects a male to wear, I'm not gonna waste my time fighting a battle about it because it's a fucking stupid battle and a real waste of my time. Also, I don't really see what is so harmful about these stereotypes in the first place. The poster above me calls them "lame," ok whatever... Some stereotypes absolutely are 100% socially constructed, and some other stereotypes are absolutely influenced by actual biology and nature.
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Selfish parents imo. They only did this to get attention. I dont believe a word they said, skull shirts are to masculine, but a pink bathing suit is neutral? The fuck outta here
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I feel like the parents have good intentions but are just fucking up everything because they've never taking a class in child psychology before.
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Am I the only one that thinks it's hypocritical of them to not allow their kid to wear clothes with skulls or play with Barbies? I think these people are literally retarded. Give me a break, gender roles exist for a reason, they came about because that's how humans act. I don't see how hiding their kid's gender can possibly have more positive than negative outcomes.
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I don't quite get what the parents thought they were gonna achieve with this, they had to have known at the beginning that they could only keep it going for a certain amount of time.
It really sucks for that kid, he's almost certainly gonna be bullied, especially if he keeps wearing part of the girl's uniform.
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Ok so he could dress/act/play with whatever he wanted AS LONG as it wasn't "stereotypical"? Seems like they're just enforcing stereotypes in an indirect way.
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On May 10 2012 08:05 Nekosan78 wrote:
Another day, another story presenting sheer stupidity.
In no way are they doing themselves or their kid a favour. All they did was massage their "alternative" and pseudo intellectual egos. Kids will be kids regardless of what labels you put on them and at some point reality will always catch up with them, keeping them from it does more damage than good. It is ridiculous what an impact you can have on your child's life from a developmental perspective at such an age.
It's for cases like this social services should step in and declare the parents unfit to look after / have further children.
Don't be absurd. The child has obviously not been mistreated, only it's sex has been withheld from people outside the family, how is that bad in any way? Children hardly have any idea about gender at such a low age anyway, nor do they care - in fact it makes sense not to push that on them, since it should give them better relations with both sexes. The real problem with this is the other people that senselessly mold their children into what they think is the appropriate view of a specific gender.
The only insensible thing about this whole story is the fact that media is involved, and I doubt it was even the parents that called it to the medias attention in the first place. Assigning gender to small children was basically a non-issue until the 20th century anyway - up until then pink was considered quite butch and wearing dresses was standard for both boys and girls, so not forcing a gender label on a small child is obviously neither unnatural or dangerous. -_-
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so...some no one couple decided to not reveal their childs sex and once they do it makes the news? i don't want to live on this planet anymore.
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On May 10 2012 08:33 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:05 Nekosan78 wrote:
Another day, another story presenting sheer stupidity.
In no way are they doing themselves or their kid a favour. All they did was massage their "alternative" and pseudo intellectual egos. Kids will be kids regardless of what labels you put on them and at some point reality will always catch up with them, keeping them from it does more damage than good. It is ridiculous what an impact you can have on your child's life from a developmental perspective at such an age.
It's for cases like this social services should step in and declare the parents unfit to look after / have further children. Don't be absurd. The child has obviously not been mistreated, only it's sex has been withheld from people outside the family, how is that bad in any way? Children hardly have any idea about gender at such a low age anyway, nor do they care - in fact it makes sense not to push that on them, since it should give them better relations with both sexes. The real problem with this is the other people that senselessly mold their children into what they think is the appropriate view of a specific gender. The only insensible thing about this whole story is the fact that media is involved, and I doubt it was even the parents that called it to the medias attention in the first place. Assigning gender to small children was basically a non-issue until the 20th century anyway - up until then pink was considered quite butch and wearing dresses was standard for both boys and girls, so not forcing a gender label on a small child is obviously neither unnatural or dangerous. -_-
Wearing dresses was never considered manly ever. And pink was never considered butch either.
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This does seem to be, a frankly disturbing, experiment. Just because they don't like gender roles they decide to make these changes during the most delicate part of a child's development...without understanding what the consequences will be, or having assumed them based on "feelings" and personal anecdotes.
Perhaps at some point gender roles will need to be studied...but it would have to be in a way that doesn't use human subjects at that age, and by experts in the field who (relatively speaking) know what they're doing. In the mean time they should really have just introduced ideas of gender vs. sex to their kids when they're old enough to understand these concepts. And earlier on support their choices if they are naturally attracted to certain toys/clothes over others just like everyone else.
I don't get where people are getting the "fame" motive from though. They would have to be pretty horrible people to undertake this experiment on their own son just to get some popularity; in my mind the more reasonable explanation is that they actually believe in what they're doing. It would be pretty rare to have parents immoral enough to seriously jeopardize their child's development...not so rare to have parents who simply believe weird things.
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On May 10 2012 08:03 Celestia wrote:
This is not a new experiment or something. There have been cultures in which they treat the kids gender neutral, I see nothing wrong here except that the parents are making a huge deal about this and are putting silly rules.
There are (extremely rare) cultures that are gender neutral, or where it is commonly accepted for people to identify with both/neither gender.
However, Western culture is not one of them. It's thought that in Western culture, children learn their own gender identity by 2-3 years of age, and by 5 years of age they begin socially enforcing it e.g. by bullying those who don't conform.
I doubt that their decision to not enforce any gender onto him will do him any actual harm. Probably for the best that they ended this publicity stunt now. I wouldn't call it an experiment, it's fairly well known what will happen if you don't enforce a gender stereotype onto a child, and the answer is that he or she will choose stereotypes to identify with that match the child's own gender identity.
EDIT: Of course, they could have made it a true experiment by removing the child from any social interaction until now, essentially forcing the child to create a de novo gender identity without being able to observe social stereotyped behaviour. I suspect that's the kind of thing that falls under torture.
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Someone remember to bump this thread in about 20 years when this kid is arrested as the most prolific serial killer of all time.
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On May 10 2012 08:33 sushiman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:05 Nekosan78 wrote:
Another day, another story presenting sheer stupidity.
In no way are they doing themselves or their kid a favour. All they did was massage their "alternative" and pseudo intellectual egos. Kids will be kids regardless of what labels you put on them and at some point reality will always catch up with them, keeping them from it does more damage than good. It is ridiculous what an impact you can have on your child's life from a developmental perspective at such an age.
It's for cases like this social services should step in and declare the parents unfit to look after / have further children. Don't be absurd. The child has obviously not been mistreated, only it's sex has been withheld from people outside the family, how is that bad in any way? Children hardly have any idea about gender at such a low age anyway, nor do they care - in fact it makes sense not to push that on them, since it should give them better relations with both sexes. The real problem with this is the other people that senselessly mold their children into what they think is the appropriate view of a specific gender. The only insensible thing about this whole story is the fact that media is involved, and I doubt it was even the parents that called it to the medias attention in the first place. Assigning gender to small children was basically a non-issue until the 20th century anyway - up until then pink was considered quite butch and wearing dresses was standard for both boys and girls, so not forcing a gender label on a small child is obviously neither unnatural or dangerous. -_-
Maybe a bit of exaggeration on my behalf 
It is a young age but they (the parents) are establishing an identity that does not conform with society - as others have mentioned that is however all kids want to do at that age. Worst of all (and that's why i included my extreme take including social services) is that they are taking the kids choice away. Admittedly there are many decisions kids can't and shouldn't make but this isn't one, this concerns identity and is deeply personal. Comparable would be if I raised my children as religious fanatics or stubborn atheists, only indoctrinating them with my subjective view of the world. I can think of nothing worse.
Best is to talk to your children, present all sides and let them make up their own minds. Anything else is tantamount to brainwashing and disrespectful towards them as thinking, rational human beings.
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On May 10 2012 08:14 BabyToss! wrote:
Someone already said it, but I agree in principle with the following - Sex = being the biological one, while Gender = the societal (lame) construct.
The idea of the parents was essentialy good, in terms of not wanting to just raise yet another kid hanging on old, lame gender stereotypes, which should've die ages ago, however, the whole executing of the idea, forcing it on a being, who can't make his/her own mind is just not fair towards the little one. Instead, the parents should always put emphasis on choice, as to what the kid wants, in terms of toys and stuff, when he/she gets older to be able to make that choice. No emphasis on 'this is boy's/girl's stuff'. No saying that this and that is girls' or boy's, as that is what promotes the stereotypes, not the other way around.
I have a 9 years old son and I always make sure to explain him, that there's nothing like girl's or boy's toys or colours, etc. for example. Sure, there is an influence from the outside (school, other kids) in regards of the gender shit, but the best and the most fair thing I can do is to keep teaching my son to be open-minded and not fall into the stereotypes, without forcing him to wear some pink bullshit to make my point across..
I agree. Teaching a kid to be open minded and letting it play with whatever it likes is OK but calling him neutral is attention whoring IMHO. What's the point? Isn't it enough to just say "he's a boy but he likes to play with dolls too and it's perfectly fine with me"? There is a border which when crossed shows that parents are self - centered more than they want well being of their kid. I would not want for my young kid to stand out too much to lower the chance he/she will be ridiculed by peers.
I'm worried for Sasha in a way some posters here expressed - kids can be cruel and there isn't much teachers and parents can do about it, especially since cruelty of those kids, in my opinion, comes from somewhere, in most cases their home.
Whether be it parents neglecting the kid or being assholes themselves. Can we be 100% the parent of a cruel kid will do something successfully about it?
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most of the women i know love cargo pants....
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On May 10 2012 08:42 Zaqwert wrote:
Someone remember to bump this thread in about 20 years when this kid is arrested as the most prolific serial killer of all time.
I don't think this will happen. more likely he will be just metro-sexual. 
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Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
This isn't worthy of attention and just makes TL more tabloid-esque.
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EPT
