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On May 09 2012 05:57 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. The reason I added 1-1-1 was that it's still quite effective at high levels (though not the highest levels) even if they know it's coming. The fact that the Toss allins you mentioned were not once dominating high level PvTs means they are something different: a build which is only powerful because it wasn't scouted. You find the proxy stargate in time - you hold the rush. Holding 1-1-1 is much more difficult - so difficult in fact that scouting 1 bunker and 2 depots sends a protoss into 1-1-1 defense mode (because otherwise they'll die). I've watched TvPs before. I've played TvPs before. I'm not a pro but I don't think this thread was created because pro terrans were doing so terribly (they're not). I'll assume the sentiment "it just is" to means "no, I have nothing to indicate this is bias - and also I'm ignoring your points about protoss pros with high APM because I can't refute them."
It just is meant exactly that. I didn't want to spell it out, but very well:
It takes more APM to control a Terran army effectively in the TvP match up than it does for Protoss to control their army. There, that is it.
You can scout a 1/1/1 just like T as you mentioned can scout a proxy stargate or robo or w/e. I think the lack of toss allins lately is as simple as this: (from P perspective) Why would I try to end the game early, when the longer the game goes on (provided I play well ie, defend against drops etc) the more it goes in my favor.
And dude, of course if you don't scout the allin and don't react.... it will kill the race and map is not even noteworthy in this scenario you presented.
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On May 09 2012 06:11 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:57 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. The reason I added 1-1-1 was that it's still quite effective at high levels (though not the highest levels) even if they know it's coming. The fact that the Toss allins you mentioned were not once dominating high level PvTs means they are something different: a build which is only powerful because it wasn't scouted. You find the proxy stargate in time - you hold the rush. Holding 1-1-1 is much more difficult - so difficult in fact that scouting 1 bunker and 2 depots sends a protoss into 1-1-1 defense mode (because otherwise they'll die). I've watched TvPs before. I've played TvPs before. I'm not a pro but I don't think this thread was created because pro terrans were doing so terribly (they're not). I'll assume the sentiment "it just is" to means "no, I have nothing to indicate this is bias - and also I'm ignoring your points about protoss pros with high APM because I can't refute them." It just is meant exactly that. I didn't want to spell it out, but very well: It takes more APM to control a Terran army effectively in the TvP match up than it does for Protoss to control their army. There, that is it. You can scout a 1/1/1 just like T as you mentioned can scout a proxy stargate or robo or w/e. I think the lack of toss allins lately is as simple as this: (from P perspective) Why would I try to end the game early, when the longer the game goes on (provided I play well ie, defend against drops etc) the more it goes in my favor. And dude, of course if you don't scout the allin and don't react.... it will kill the race and map is not even noteworthy in this scenario you presented.
Stating something is fact does not make it so. That is not how proving things works. No one has ever shown that that the terran army requires more skill to control effectively that the protoss army. The few examples people have posted, the terran has played so poorly that the protoss was able to simple 1-a over the army with a huge economic advantage.
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On May 09 2012 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. How about this, since you made the claim, you post the replay of a protoss player with significantly less APM beating a terran in an even match up? Maybe you have higher AMP, but you're really bad at controling you units. It is possible to be really, really fast and also have crappy control.
basically every pro tournament, Terran and Zerg players have higher average apm than protoss players. go download any replay pack.
axslav said his is 93...
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On May 09 2012 06:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 06:11 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:57 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. The reason I added 1-1-1 was that it's still quite effective at high levels (though not the highest levels) even if they know it's coming. The fact that the Toss allins you mentioned were not once dominating high level PvTs means they are something different: a build which is only powerful because it wasn't scouted. You find the proxy stargate in time - you hold the rush. Holding 1-1-1 is much more difficult - so difficult in fact that scouting 1 bunker and 2 depots sends a protoss into 1-1-1 defense mode (because otherwise they'll die). I've watched TvPs before. I've played TvPs before. I'm not a pro but I don't think this thread was created because pro terrans were doing so terribly (they're not). I'll assume the sentiment "it just is" to means "no, I have nothing to indicate this is bias - and also I'm ignoring your points about protoss pros with high APM because I can't refute them." It just is meant exactly that. I didn't want to spell it out, but very well: It takes more APM to control a Terran army effectively in the TvP match up than it does for Protoss to control their army. There, that is it. You can scout a 1/1/1 just like T as you mentioned can scout a proxy stargate or robo or w/e. I think the lack of toss allins lately is as simple as this: (from P perspective) Why would I try to end the game early, when the longer the game goes on (provided I play well ie, defend against drops etc) the more it goes in my favor. And dude, of course if you don't scout the allin and don't react.... it will kill the race and map is not even noteworthy in this scenario you presented. Stating something is fact does not make it so. That is not how proving things works. No one has ever shown that that the terran army requires more skill to control effectively that the protoss army. The few examples people have posted, the terran has played so poorly that the protoss was able to simple 1-a over the army with a huge economic advantage.
We can just break it down unit by unit-
Marine> Insane micro potential, needed to not die to Toss AOE, Constant kiting needed
Marauder> same as marine
Medivac> Keeping them behind your infantry, using them to lift up after FF were thrown down, Keeping an eye on them when they're out to drop, making sure they don't die.
Viking> Same spread techniques you would use with bio units (avoid storm and don't clump when archons are present)
Ghost> can't stim, so not much in terms the actual unit, the APM for this one comes from its abilities, spamming EMPS and snipes to try and negate storm.
Zealot> spread to avoid EMP, don't let them get stuck behind other units, after that its an A move unit.
Stalker> Blink ability, scouts for the main army, used to pick off stray units, focus fire vikings, good drop deterrent (not defense)
Sentry> precision required for FF, GS takes 1 click, Hallucination is...not seen often enough for me to take it into account (for this MU at least)
Colossus> A move unit, try to avoid vikings
HT> Spread to avoid EMP,But even if the EMPs land it is GENERALLY not as bad as Terran letting storms land on his army. Storm on the biggest clumps of infantry you see then morph to archon, outside the main battles, used to feed back medivacs
Archon> A move unit, no interesting micro worth noting (except that banshee snipe sase got on his stream a few days ago by having 2 archons attack each other, was pretty sick)
You guys think its like some kind of insult that a toss army requires less APM? I use to think that it was a negative as well but that's just the way the game is designed, I'm not trying to start flame wars here I'm stating observations. When the battle goes down, Terran is the one expending more effort.
EDIT- As for your request about the reps, one word- Elfi.
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Whenever I lose to protoss I begin spamming when the various GoT characters die in the books. Blizzard's stance on balance is outright retarded and I doubt SC2 will ever take off in Korea as long as you can't have drawn out macro games going either way.
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I wouldnt worry of it as being a fact. Thing is there are S class terrans with over 70% ratio against protoss. They wouldnt be in such place only by playing bit-by-bit style. There are a lot of reasons to it. And even if blizzard named a few, certainly there is much more to it. Get serious.
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lol @ all protosses just saying "I don't understand the problem"
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Blizzard has acknowledged the fact that given equal footing through the early and mid game that a late game protoss has a significant and distinct advantage over the late game army of terran.
If you don't see this then you're an idiot.
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On May 09 2012 06:33 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 06:06 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. How about this, since you made the claim, you post the replay of a protoss player with significantly less APM beating a terran in an even match up? Maybe you have higher AMP, but you're really bad at controling you units. It is possible to be really, really fast and also have crappy control. basically every pro tournament, Terran and Zerg players have higher average apm than protoss players. go download any replay pack. axslav said his is 93...
Parting's APM is huge.
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I still think nerfing the marauder a little bit would be the better way to go, while buffing some high tier units to compensate. Although marines have an insane burst of dps due to stim, they are very very squishy. Marauders on the otherhand are too tanky and kill almost all armoured foes on ground. I still think this sudden burst of dps due to stim should be neutered abit in return for other units(high tier) to have bigger roles as the game unfolds to the end game..
And i cant believe people are arguing how P requires smiliar micro control as a T does in an engagement. Its blindingly obvious that due to the unit design, no matter how you micro the P units, most of them will increase their effectiveness only a little bit. I dont really like this design but its the way it is compared to T units where the cost effectiveness is dependant on the players micro control. The ceiling for the T is huge in comparison to P players and thats somewhat of a problem since the T requires more effort to stay even in some engagements.
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Personally I feel like Terran has too few options in TvP. Why would you go anything other than MMM? You see guys like MVP and MKP dabbling a bit more with Tanks, but it seems if the Protoss pressures early and kills a couple, or sniffs it out and gets Immortals they'll just roll through it (map dependant of course). I'm leaning more towards a buff to Mech for Terran, but I don't know how you'd do it without breaking TvT and TvZ, or nerfing the Immortal (potentially breaking PvZ 12min Roach?). Personally I don't really like the Immortal, even as a Protoss I feel it's too good against the things it's good against. It only adds a boring dynamic to the game for me.
Buffing Mech or nerfing the Immortal will give Terrans another genuine option, and Protoss will have to keep that in mind. Hopefully that'll mean they won't be able to play so greedy and/or cut corners which is what's happening now because all Protoss needs to worry about is a bio army, and if it's not that, getting out an army to roll anything Tank based is easy enough on larger maps.
Currently the only reason Terran has to really tech is to counter Protoss tech, which is kind of weird. Why would you get Vikings if you knew there'd be no Colossi, same for Ghosts and HTs. Seems a bit out of whack to me.
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On May 09 2012 06:42 EmilA wrote:
Whenever I lose to protoss I begin spamming when the various GoT characters die in the books. Blizzard's stance on balance is outright retarded and I doubt SC2 will ever take off in Korea as long as you can't have drawn out macro games going either way.
You are a terrible person and you should feel terrible. No, really. I'm completely serious. This doesn't even have anything to do with balance or anything SC2 related. Who does that? Fucking get your worthless ego together and get over yourself. Jesus christ. IMO spoiling a story for someone is one of the absolute lowest things you can do, because it's irreversible. My philosophy is that fiction is one of the beautiful things we can cherish as humans, and experiencing any great work of fiction is a truly unique life experience. I fall and scrape my knee, it heals. If I get a great story spoiled, it's never going to be the same (unless I literally wait years and years until I - hopefully - completely forget everything, which is extremely infeasible). Seriously, if you actually do that, then fuck you.
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On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) Show nested quote +I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol.
Yeah his replays were terrible and it was clear he took a lot for granted and didn't seem to make strategic decisions throughout the game. I think plansix just enjoys stirring the pot and is trying to derail the thread, like my earlier posts and focus on petty disagreements
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On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias?
Why do you assume 1-1-1 is a lower level of play? Seems like fallacious reasoning to me
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On May 09 2012 06:42 EmilA wrote:
Whenever I lose to protoss I begin spamming when the various GoT characters die in the books. Blizzard's stance on balance is outright retarded and I doubt SC2 will ever take off in Korea as long as you can't have drawn out macro games going either way.
Holy hell, that's brilliant. I do wonder if more Koreans will start to speak up about this though, or if they will just strive for better micro to overcome it.
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Northern Ireland27286 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:05 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 06:33 xrapture wrote:On May 09 2012 06:06 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. How about this, since you made the claim, you post the replay of a protoss player with significantly less APM beating a terran in an even match up? Maybe you have higher AMP, but you're really bad at controling you units. It is possible to be really, really fast and also have crappy control. basically every pro tournament, Terran and Zerg players have higher average apm than protoss players. go download any replay pack. axslav said his is 93... Parting's APM is huge.
APM argument is distorted anyway, Zerg especially tend to produce more units in a game, especially if going ling-heavy so that in itself equals more actions.
That said I think Protoss should require more micro/control, which they do if you don't build collosi. PvT without that unit is actually a pretty good matchup to watch. Regardless of what you think of storms, it's still more of a skill than a-moving Collosi.
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On May 09 2012 08:54 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 04:45 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 04:36 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 04:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:38 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 03:18 nOondn wrote:On May 09 2012 03:09 zmansman17 wrote:On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans. yes ,he is lol. So wait, you are saying that because you have a higher rank than him but you are in the same league, his argument is invalid? Isn't his argument that he emulates the play styles of pros that are having success in the match up? Could you expand on how that is a bad argument? Did you think korean master = Na master ? lol. Ah, well I was not aware you were masters on the Korea server. That you are most likely more experienced and shoudl have a better understanding of the match up. Still, I prefer the attitude of Fencer710, who seems more interested in improving and helping others improve or try to understand the match up better. You may have a higher level of play than him, better control, macro or understanding, but he appears to be willing to cut his teeth on trying new things and improving his play. He did not try to understand the match up better, you can judge from his post ... He is truly TvP Bonjowa lol,He act like he know shit everything but If you have a plenty of time you should watch his replay (http://drop.sc/169864) and you will know that he didn't even know about how to play in the early game (blindly play i would say) I open with LastShadow's CC first into 6 barracks, he opens up 1gate FE and plays defensively. I decide not to push with marine/scv at his front because I don't know what kind of tech he's going for if any, and do a 12 minute timing push at his front This is not how to play the game if you truely know about this match up .He didn't even scout/scan/bunker at all lol. Yeah his replays were terrible and it was clear he took a lot for granted and didn't seem to make strategic decisions throughout the game. I think plansix just enjoys stirring the pot and is trying to derail the thread, like my earlier posts and focus on petty disagreements
I do enjoy stirring the pot a bit in these "Terran suffer so much, it takes so much effort to win against x-race, we need so much micro and perfect macro" arguments. Some of the posters are so whiny (nOondn excluded, he is pretty good about making good points) it makes my skin crawl. I have had a pretty rough time against zerg and terran time with SC2, but I never thought felt that I should post "Their race requires no skill or APM. They just stim/max roachs and a-move over me for the ez-pz win. It is fact".
I do think that AMP is a horrible way to see how much "control" an army requires. Getting a good hellon surround with zerglings does not require a large number of actions, but one decisive one. A good set of forcefields requires 3-5 evenly spaces movements as a specific moment to get a specific split. The banshee requires "less" AMP that the marine, but that is only because its attack and turn speed is slower than the marine. But no terran is going to argue that the banshee requires less control than the marine. They are both units that you need to practice with to use. One bad blink can lose you a lot of stalkers and there is almost nothing that can be done to recover from it.
All AMP was not created equal. There is quality over quantity in SC2.
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On May 09 2012 08:43 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 06:42 EmilA wrote:
Whenever I lose to protoss I begin spamming when the various GoT characters die in the books. Blizzard's stance on balance is outright retarded and I doubt SC2 will ever take off in Korea as long as you can't have drawn out macro games going either way. You are a terrible person and you should feel terrible. No, really. I'm completely serious. This doesn't even have anything to do with balance or anything SC2 related. Who does that? Fucking get your worthless ego together and get over yourself. Jesus christ. IMO spoiling a story for someone is one of the absolute lowest things you can do, because it's irreversible. My philosophy is that fiction is one of the beautiful things we can cherish as humans, and experiencing any great work of fiction is a truly unique life experience. I fall and scrape my knee, it heals. If I get a great story spoiled, it's never going to be the same (unless I literally wait years and years until I - hopefully - completely forget everything, which is extremely infeasible). Seriously, if you actually do that, then fuck you.
or you could, you know, actually read the books? but ha, readings too hard, right?
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On May 09 2012 10:15 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 08:43 HolyArrow wrote:On May 09 2012 06:42 EmilA wrote:
Whenever I lose to protoss I begin spamming when the various GoT characters die in the books. Blizzard's stance on balance is outright retarded and I doubt SC2 will ever take off in Korea as long as you can't have drawn out macro games going either way. You are a terrible person and you should feel terrible. No, really. I'm completely serious. This doesn't even have anything to do with balance or anything SC2 related. Who does that? Fucking get your worthless ego together and get over yourself. Jesus christ. IMO spoiling a story for someone is one of the absolute lowest things you can do, because it's irreversible. My philosophy is that fiction is one of the beautiful things we can cherish as humans, and experiencing any great work of fiction is a truly unique life experience. I fall and scrape my knee, it heals. If I get a great story spoiled, it's never going to be the same (unless I literally wait years and years until I - hopefully - completely forget everything, which is extremely infeasible). Seriously, if you actually do that, then fuck you. or you could, you know, actually read the books? but ha, readings too hard, right?
Is this actually your response? Seriously? I know biased Terrans like to band together...but seriously?
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On May 09 2012 06:33 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 06:06 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 05:40 captainwaffles wrote:On May 09 2012 05:27 Treehead wrote:On May 09 2012 04:42 captainwaffles wrote:
1. Not fair- By this I simply mean Terran has more actions to perform than protoss at any given point in the game, in a sense terran has to "work harder" for the win than toss. For the better part of a year this infuriated me but now I don't care, it is what it is.
So you mean to say here that, at the highest level of play, protoss players who have equivalent APM to their terran counterparts but are still losing the game are wasting their APM on things they don't "have to do" (whatever that means)? Or are you talking about a lower level of play (at which point, I will add: 1-1-1)? Do you have anything new to indicate that this sentiment (which just about every terran and just about no protoss agrees with) is anything more than bias? Open up a TvP replay and see for yourself, or play some TvP's with a friend. It simply takes more APM to play Terran. Its not bias, it...it just is. You add 1/1/1? I will add any number of toss allins... an allin is easy (comparatively to the other player) to execute- that is a reason why they're so effective, easier to execute, harder to defend. How about this, since you made the claim, you post the replay of a protoss player with significantly less APM beating a terran in an even match up? Maybe you have higher AMP, but you're really bad at controling you units. It is possible to be really, really fast and also have crappy control. basically every pro tournament, Terran and Zerg players have higher average apm than protoss players. go download any replay pack. axslav said his is 93...
Since when has APM mattered?
Everyone loves to cite that July got 818 APM in the OSL. What they don't say is he did it while suiciding mutas into Flash's turrets and losing the game one-sidedly.
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EPT
