• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:36
CEST 11:36
KST 18:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed17Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion Soulkey Muta Micro Map? [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 638 users

TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 112

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 110 111 112
sereniity
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Sweden1159 Posts
May 22 2012 13:35 GMT
#2221
On May 22 2012 21:42 AbuseYouMerc wrote:
If storm is the problem then its a matter of lowering dps while making it last longer.


Well storm and Colossi damage, what else would be the problem? I think Warpgate is messed up and forcefields aswell but I don't see either of those 2 being changed anytime soon...
"I am Day9, Holy shit!"
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
May 22 2012 13:43 GMT
#2222
On May 22 2012 11:05 Kharnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 10:53 cydial wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:21 Kharnage wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:19 monkybone wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:
The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran.


No, your argument is BS. Different races have different mechanics helping them out in different situations. I can name tons of things that Protoss and Zerg has that Terran doesn't have which gives them the advantage in other situations.


I'm sorry, but energy for minerals in low econ games is BS. In any low econ game terran has a HUGE advantage. So, low econ games, chrono boost is a huge help in helping you spend money you don't have really quickly. Awesome!


Do the math... the mule makes the terran EVEN with the other races in terms of eco considering...

-Terran has to lose mining time to make a building
-Spend money to get the orbital

Once terran actually starts to use the mule it's about even with the zerg and protoss that have been using their macro mechanics since the very beginning of the game...


Actually, after I think 7 minutes terran is ahead in TvP even if protoss uses all their chrono on probes. Someone did the math and yeah, mules are really good. Also once a base has more than 16 mineral workers mules become even better, because you can over saturate a mineral line.
Note that the advantage you're talking about isn't always available as protoss cause you need to use chrono on warp gate research etc so you don't die to really aggressive openings. getting an orbital and muling away has no negative effect on aggressive play, unlike using all your chrono on probes. for zerg this is even more true, you simply cannot be aggressive and take full advantage of faster drones. Likewise if you drone as hard as you can, you'll die to early aggression.

No, the math was that Terran is still behind Protoss's economy even after 3rd mules. The math was that you use the total mineral at the beginning of the game (1500 per batch x 8 patch) - total mineral in each batch at current time. You will always see that Terran is behind in economy even when he use energy for 3 mules. Protoss has better economy than Terran because of chronoboost which make Protoss always at least 2 probes ahead of Terran, moreover, Terran always has to dedicate at least 1 workers to build stuffs, so he has less scv to mine than in paper.
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
May 22 2012 13:56 GMT
#2223
If we wanted all the races to be perfectly symmetrical, wouldn't we just be better off playing chess?
All the pros got dat Ichie.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
May 22 2012 13:57 GMT
#2224
--- Nuked ---
HeroMystic
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1217 Posts
May 22 2012 14:10 GMT
#2225
On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2012 16:54 roymarthyup wrote:
On May 21 2012 16:33 ceaRshaf wrote:
On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!

If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.


Because terran players say that they are forced to stick to the 1,2 tier units the hole game. If this is true blizzard fucked up the design. But I am not completely sure this is the fact thought but more that tvp lategame needs to be reinvented.


pretty much feedback needs to be removed or BC's and thors need a "no energy" option. feedback is a horrible design element and if removed mech would become viable in the matchup instantly


How about change feedback to 25 energy, and remove the damage component. It just removes all energy on the unit. The thing everyone seems to be overlooking about feedbck is that it is absoloutly required to deal with ghosts, medivacs, ravens, infestors, phoenix, pretty much anything which can use a caster ability. Remove feedback and you remove one of protosses only micro abilities that deal with the super powerful caster units.


Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 09:30 monkybone wrote:
On May 22 2012 08:42 canikizu wrote:
On May 22 2012 04:32 freetgy wrote:
On May 22 2012 04:20 Fencer710 wrote:
On May 22 2012 03:22 Endrew wrote:
On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!

Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:

If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.

So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.

If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work.


First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions.

What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't?

There are a number of Protoss all-in's and Immortal busts that can end the game early, as well as failed Terran all-in's that can contribute to the low average minute count.


yeah, but there is a reason, protoss don't do that.

if a protoss all-in fails, he will lose 95% against a good player.
if a terran player all-in fails, he will usually still have traded well enough by terran design (all units are cost effective) and can catch up thanks to mules and strong defensive options.

Not protoss, not zerg has that luxury.

People need to stop having perception that mules is op and can pull Terran back if the all in fail.
A mule can mine 270 mineral per 90sec, an scv/probe mines 40-45 minerals per 60sec. So it takes 6 scv/probe mining in 60sec = 1 mule in 90 sec.
Let's say, in some extreme all in, Terran pulls 12 scvs, and takes 30 second to Protoss's base. By the time Terran reach Protoss's base, Protoss should already mine enough mineral to make up for the Terran's mules, every mineral Protoss probes mine after that are free minerals. The longer Protoss can hold Terran army, the more cripple Terran's economy is gonna be. Don't forget that Protoss always has higher harvester count around those so called all-in.

See, the map getting bigger really hits Terran's all-in hard. The reason some 1-1-1 all-in still work because although it's all-in, Terran has already have all the tech tree, so he doesn't really fall behind in tech. Just try Terran's marines scv only all in, if it fails, Terran is gonna be so far behind that it's not funny anymore.


Why do people make it so complicated... 1 OC constantly muling gives the extra mining corresponding to 4 scvs. How can one relate to 6 scvs in 60 seconds per 90 seconds...

Thus if Terran pulls an all in with all his SCVs, the OC gives Terran the mineral income corresponding to 4 scvs. Not 6. On the flip side, if Protoss uses chrono boost 4 times, Protoss will have at least 4 extra probes compared to Terran (who had to build the OC for 150 minerals during 35 seconds), mining the equivalent of the Muling until full saturation.


The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran.


Just wanted to say that the GSL example is extremely flawed, purely because I know exactly the game he's talking about. It was Slayers_Yugioh vs MKP. Yugioh hardcountered MKP's build because MKP doesn't scout at all, and Yugioh pretty much should've won that game, however he failed to wall-in at his natural (A wall he already had with a Queen in fact), and while Yugioh's Mutalisks were attacking his SCVs, MKP's hellions roasted drones. So this is a terrible example for a bad arguement.
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
May 22 2012 14:51 GMT
#2226
I think this thread has run its course.
Moderator
Prev 1 110 111 112
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 24m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 239
StarCraft: Brood War
BeSt 3282
Mini 696
Hyun 471
Larva 397
Soma 257
Dewaltoss 172
Barracks 139
Backho 103
Sharp 100
firebathero 68
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 56
sorry 38
Free 37
zelot 36
ajuk12(nOOB) 18
Bonyth 1
Britney 0
Sea 0
Dota 2
Gorgc1026
XcaliburYe548
League of Legends
JimRising 535
Super Smash Bros
Westballz56
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor164
Other Games
Happy380
Fuzer 219
SortOf114
DeMusliM27
Trikslyr26
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2732
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH275
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2177
League of Legends
• Stunt893
• Jankos731
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
24m
Epic.LAN
2h 24m
CSO Contender
7h 24m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d
Online Event
1d 6h
Esports World Cup
3 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
4 days
Esports World Cup
5 days
Esports World Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
Championship of Russia 2025
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.