On May 22 2012 11:05 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 10:53 cydial wrote:On May 22 2012 10:21 Kharnage wrote:On May 22 2012 10:19 monkybone wrote:On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:
The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran. No, your argument is BS. Different races have different mechanics helping them out in different situations. I can name tons of things that Protoss and Zerg has that Terran doesn't have which gives them the advantage in other situations. I'm sorry, but energy for minerals in low econ games is BS. In any low econ game terran has a HUGE advantage. So, low econ games, chrono boost is a huge help in helping you spend money you don't have really quickly. Awesome! Do the math... the mule makes the terran EVEN with the other races in terms of eco considering... -Terran has to lose mining time to make a building -Spend money to get the orbital Once terran actually starts to use the mule it's about even with the zerg and protoss that have been using their macro mechanics since the very beginning of the game... Actually, after I think 7 minutes terran is ahead in TvP even if protoss uses all their chrono on probes. Someone did the math and yeah, mules are really good. Also once a base has more than 16 mineral workers mules become even better, because you can over saturate a mineral line. Note that the advantage you're talking about isn't always available as protoss cause you need to use chrono on warp gate research etc so you don't die to really aggressive openings. getting an orbital and muling away has no negative effect on aggressive play, unlike using all your chrono on probes. for zerg this is even more true, you simply cannot be aggressive and take full advantage of faster drones. Likewise if you drone as hard as you can, you'll die to early aggression.
No, the math was that Terran is still behind Protoss's economy even after 3rd mules. The math was that you use the total mineral at the beginning of the game (1500 per batch x 8 patch) - total mineral in each batch at current time. You will always see that Terran is behind in economy even when he use energy for 3 mules. Protoss has better economy than Terran because of chronoboost which make Protoss always at least 2 probes ahead of Terran, moreover, Terran always has to dedicate at least 1 workers to build stuffs, so he has less scv to mine than in paper.
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On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 16:54 roymarthyup wrote:On May 21 2012 16:33 ceaRshaf wrote:On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!
If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.
Because terran players say that they are forced to stick to the 1,2 tier units the hole game. If this is true blizzard fucked up the design. But I am not completely sure this is the fact thought but more that tvp lategame needs to be reinvented. pretty much feedback needs to be removed or BC's and thors need a "no energy" option. feedback is a horrible design element and if removed mech would become viable in the matchup instantly How about change feedback to 25 energy, and remove the damage component. It just removes all energy on the unit. The thing everyone seems to be overlooking about feedbck is that it is absoloutly required to deal with ghosts, medivacs, ravens, infestors, phoenix, pretty much anything which can use a caster ability. Remove feedback and you remove one of protosses only micro abilities that deal with the super powerful caster units. Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 09:30 monkybone wrote:On May 22 2012 08:42 canikizu wrote:On May 22 2012 04:32 freetgy wrote:On May 22 2012 04:20 Fencer710 wrote:On May 22 2012 03:22 Endrew wrote:On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!
Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:
If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.
So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.
If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work. First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions. What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't? There are a number of Protoss all-in's and Immortal busts that can end the game early, as well as failed Terran all-in's that can contribute to the low average minute count. yeah, but there is a reason, protoss don't do that. if a protoss all-in fails, he will lose 95% against a good player. if a terran player all-in fails, he will usually still have traded well enough by terran design (all units are cost effective) and can catch up thanks to mules and strong defensive options. Not protoss, not zerg has that luxury. People need to stop having perception that mules is op and can pull Terran back if the all in fail. A mule can mine 270 mineral per 90sec, an scv/probe mines 40-45 minerals per 60sec. So it takes 6 scv/probe mining in 60sec = 1 mule in 90 sec. Let's say, in some extreme all in, Terran pulls 12 scvs, and takes 30 second to Protoss's base. By the time Terran reach Protoss's base, Protoss should already mine enough mineral to make up for the Terran's mules, every mineral Protoss probes mine after that are free minerals. The longer Protoss can hold Terran army, the more cripple Terran's economy is gonna be. Don't forget that Protoss always has higher harvester count around those so called all-in. See, the map getting bigger really hits Terran's all-in hard. The reason some 1-1-1 all-in still work because although it's all-in, Terran has already have all the tech tree, so he doesn't really fall behind in tech. Just try Terran's marines scv only all in, if it fails, Terran is gonna be so far behind that it's not funny anymore. Why do people make it so complicated... 1 OC constantly muling gives the extra mining corresponding to 4 scvs. How can one relate to 6 scvs in 60 seconds per 90 seconds... Thus if Terran pulls an all in with all his SCVs, the OC gives Terran the mineral income corresponding to 4 scvs. Not 6. On the flip side, if Protoss uses chrono boost 4 times, Protoss will have at least 4 extra probes compared to Terran (who had to build the OC for 150 minerals during 35 seconds), mining the equivalent of the Muling until full saturation. The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran.
Just wanted to say that the GSL example is extremely flawed, purely because I know exactly the game he's talking about. It was Slayers_Yugioh vs MKP. Yugioh hardcountered MKP's build because MKP doesn't scout at all, and Yugioh pretty much should've won that game, however he failed to wall-in at his natural (A wall he already had with a Queen in fact), and while Yugioh's Mutalisks were attacking his SCVs, MKP's hellions roasted drones. So this is a terrible example for a bad arguement.
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