• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:39
CEST 16:39
KST 23:39
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes109BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch2Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
Soulkey on ASL S20 ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch [ASL20] Ro16 Group C Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Borderlands 3 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Big Programming Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Too Many LANs? Tournament Ov…
TrAiDoS
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3015 users

TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 112

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 110 111 112
sereniity
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Sweden1159 Posts
May 22 2012 13:35 GMT
#2221
On May 22 2012 21:42 AbuseYouMerc wrote:
If storm is the problem then its a matter of lowering dps while making it last longer.


Well storm and Colossi damage, what else would be the problem? I think Warpgate is messed up and forcefields aswell but I don't see either of those 2 being changed anytime soon...
"I am Day9, Holy shit!"
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
May 22 2012 13:43 GMT
#2222
On May 22 2012 11:05 Kharnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 10:53 cydial wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:21 Kharnage wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:19 monkybone wrote:
On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:
The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran.


No, your argument is BS. Different races have different mechanics helping them out in different situations. I can name tons of things that Protoss and Zerg has that Terran doesn't have which gives them the advantage in other situations.


I'm sorry, but energy for minerals in low econ games is BS. In any low econ game terran has a HUGE advantage. So, low econ games, chrono boost is a huge help in helping you spend money you don't have really quickly. Awesome!


Do the math... the mule makes the terran EVEN with the other races in terms of eco considering...

-Terran has to lose mining time to make a building
-Spend money to get the orbital

Once terran actually starts to use the mule it's about even with the zerg and protoss that have been using their macro mechanics since the very beginning of the game...


Actually, after I think 7 minutes terran is ahead in TvP even if protoss uses all their chrono on probes. Someone did the math and yeah, mules are really good. Also once a base has more than 16 mineral workers mules become even better, because you can over saturate a mineral line.
Note that the advantage you're talking about isn't always available as protoss cause you need to use chrono on warp gate research etc so you don't die to really aggressive openings. getting an orbital and muling away has no negative effect on aggressive play, unlike using all your chrono on probes. for zerg this is even more true, you simply cannot be aggressive and take full advantage of faster drones. Likewise if you drone as hard as you can, you'll die to early aggression.

No, the math was that Terran is still behind Protoss's economy even after 3rd mules. The math was that you use the total mineral at the beginning of the game (1500 per batch x 8 patch) - total mineral in each batch at current time. You will always see that Terran is behind in economy even when he use energy for 3 mules. Protoss has better economy than Terran because of chronoboost which make Protoss always at least 2 probes ahead of Terran, moreover, Terran always has to dedicate at least 1 workers to build stuffs, so he has less scv to mine than in paper.
RoarMan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada745 Posts
May 22 2012 13:56 GMT
#2223
If we wanted all the races to be perfectly symmetrical, wouldn't we just be better off playing chess?
All the pros got dat Ichie.
Account252508
Profile Joined February 2012
3454 Posts
May 22 2012 13:57 GMT
#2224
--- Nuked ---
HeroMystic
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1217 Posts
May 22 2012 14:10 GMT
#2225
On May 22 2012 10:05 Kharnage wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2012 16:54 roymarthyup wrote:
On May 21 2012 16:33 ceaRshaf wrote:
On May 21 2012 16:11 Lore-Fighting wrote:
Why does nobody seem to accept that the whole "do nothing and mass up tier 1 and 2 units til my opponent has all his tech" should not win games!

If you are going to play low-tech, then you must do damage in the early to mid-game! The other races have accepted this.


Because terran players say that they are forced to stick to the 1,2 tier units the hole game. If this is true blizzard fucked up the design. But I am not completely sure this is the fact thought but more that tvp lategame needs to be reinvented.


pretty much feedback needs to be removed or BC's and thors need a "no energy" option. feedback is a horrible design element and if removed mech would become viable in the matchup instantly


How about change feedback to 25 energy, and remove the damage component. It just removes all energy on the unit. The thing everyone seems to be overlooking about feedbck is that it is absoloutly required to deal with ghosts, medivacs, ravens, infestors, phoenix, pretty much anything which can use a caster ability. Remove feedback and you remove one of protosses only micro abilities that deal with the super powerful caster units.


Show nested quote +
On May 22 2012 09:30 monkybone wrote:
On May 22 2012 08:42 canikizu wrote:
On May 22 2012 04:32 freetgy wrote:
On May 22 2012 04:20 Fencer710 wrote:
On May 22 2012 03:22 Endrew wrote:
On May 22 2012 01:54 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I'm glad you asked!

Here's how I know Terran early game is fine:

If terran were underpowered in both early and late game, we would be seeing results of that in statistics. Guess what, we don't. At all. Both tournament statistics and ladder statistics are close enough to 50/50 to be within the margin of error.

So if Protoss lategame is super OP as many are claiming in this thread, in order for the statistics to be 50/50 that means that for every game that Protoss gets an unstoppable deathball of doom, there has to be a game where they don't get that far and instead die.

If you want to claim Protoss lategame as OP, you have to also acknowledge that Terran early game is equally OP, or you have to admit that you don't really understand how statistics work.


First of all, latest stats released by Blizz show 50(Korea)-54-56% winrate in the TvP MU in favour of Protoss, not 50/50 across all regions.

What's more, do you know what's the average game length? For several events I checked on Liqupedia it was around 11-12 minutes. Is that a late game? No. So according to your logic it should favor Terran. How come it doesn't?

There are a number of Protoss all-in's and Immortal busts that can end the game early, as well as failed Terran all-in's that can contribute to the low average minute count.


yeah, but there is a reason, protoss don't do that.

if a protoss all-in fails, he will lose 95% against a good player.
if a terran player all-in fails, he will usually still have traded well enough by terran design (all units are cost effective) and can catch up thanks to mules and strong defensive options.

Not protoss, not zerg has that luxury.

People need to stop having perception that mules is op and can pull Terran back if the all in fail.
A mule can mine 270 mineral per 90sec, an scv/probe mines 40-45 minerals per 60sec. So it takes 6 scv/probe mining in 60sec = 1 mule in 90 sec.
Let's say, in some extreme all in, Terran pulls 12 scvs, and takes 30 second to Protoss's base. By the time Terran reach Protoss's base, Protoss should already mine enough mineral to make up for the Terran's mules, every mineral Protoss probes mine after that are free minerals. The longer Protoss can hold Terran army, the more cripple Terran's economy is gonna be. Don't forget that Protoss always has higher harvester count around those so called all-in.

See, the map getting bigger really hits Terran's all-in hard. The reason some 1-1-1 all-in still work because although it's all-in, Terran has already have all the tech tree, so he doesn't really fall behind in tech. Just try Terran's marines scv only all in, if it fails, Terran is gonna be so far behind that it's not funny anymore.


Why do people make it so complicated... 1 OC constantly muling gives the extra mining corresponding to 4 scvs. How can one relate to 6 scvs in 60 seconds per 90 seconds...

Thus if Terran pulls an all in with all his SCVs, the OC gives Terran the mineral income corresponding to 4 scvs. Not 6. On the flip side, if Protoss uses chrono boost 4 times, Protoss will have at least 4 extra probes compared to Terran (who had to build the OC for 150 minerals during 35 seconds), mining the equivalent of the Muling until full saturation.


The mule is pretty BS in certain situations. I saw an odd game in the GSL where a zerg got mutas REALLY fast and the terran had built mostly hellions (going mech). The mutas killed all the scvs and the hellions killed all the drones, but then a thor came out and was standing with turrets, so the mutas couldn't do anymore damage, and they came home, killed off hellions and both players were stable. However the terran dropped 2 mules and could make non stop scv production and pretty much got right back into the game. The zerg however only had enough mins to make 2 drones, and then had to wait for them to mine enough for another drone etc making what was a VERY even game to a solid lead for terran.


Just wanted to say that the GSL example is extremely flawed, purely because I know exactly the game he's talking about. It was Slayers_Yugioh vs MKP. Yugioh hardcountered MKP's build because MKP doesn't scout at all, and Yugioh pretty much should've won that game, however he failed to wall-in at his natural (A wall he already had with a Queen in fact), and while Yugioh's Mutalisks were attacking his SCVs, MKP's hellions roasted drones. So this is a terrible example for a bad arguement.
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
May 22 2012 14:51 GMT
#2226
I think this thread has run its course.
Moderator
Prev 1 110 111 112
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 21m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Harstem 382
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 39293
Calm 9057
Rain 4208
Hyuk 2210
Horang2 1495
actioN 1468
BeSt 919
Larva 750
Light 547
Soulkey 325
[ Show more ]
ZerO 316
ggaemo 292
Leta 228
Snow 167
Barracks 146
Mind 122
Sharp 106
Hyun 102
Pusan 76
ivOry 63
sorry 63
Sea.KH 59
JYJ51
PianO 44
Sexy 25
Aegong 24
Terrorterran 23
Movie 23
soO 20
Backho 18
Free 17
Noble 14
Sacsri 11
Yoon 10
HiyA 7
SilentControl 6
Shine 4
Dota 2
Gorgc5432
singsing3520
qojqva2427
420jenkins237
Fuzer 186
XcaliburYe140
Counter-Strike
zeus616
markeloff209
oskar107
Other Games
gofns24550
tarik_tv21536
FrodaN1301
B2W.Neo1294
crisheroes474
Lowko243
Liquid`VortiX216
Hui .206
KnowMe178
DeMusliM156
XaKoH 98
QueenE41
NeuroSwarm37
Trikslyr26
ZerO(Twitch)19
Organizations
StarCraft 2
WardiTV475
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3822
• WagamamaTV363
League of Legends
• Nemesis4085
• Jankos1241
Other Games
• Shiphtur157
Upcoming Events
Korean StarCraft League
12h 21m
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
17h 21m
RSL Revival
19h 21m
Reynor vs Cure
TBD vs Zoun
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 17h
RSL Revival
1d 19h
Classic vs TBD
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.