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On May 08 2012 19:59 Dalavita wrote:The issue with reapers is that they take forever to produce. They only become viable if you can safely max out on reapers without getting attacked beforehand, i.e lategame stalemate situations where no side can really walk across the map and simply push.I would add reapers into my mix if I was at 190/200 food after saccing SCVs and roam around the maps sniping buildings and workers and then rejoin my main army with the reapers. Shame reaper speed is getting removed in HotS, so all their viablity goes away in that regard 
source? from what I've read, I thought it was the building attack and them getting a passive hp regen or something...
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On May 08 2012 20:11 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 19:59 Dalavita wrote:The issue with reapers is that they take forever to produce. They only become viable if you can safely max out on reapers without getting attacked beforehand, i.e lategame stalemate situations where no side can really walk across the map and simply push.I would add reapers into my mix if I was at 190/200 food after saccing SCVs and roam around the maps sniping buildings and workers and then rejoin my main army with the reapers. Shame reaper speed is getting removed in HotS, so all their viablity goes away in that regard source? from what I've read, I thought it was the building attack and them getting a passive hp regen or something...
I know they lose the building attack and gain a passive HP regen, but I might have just assumed that reaper speed got removed and replaced with the HP regen, but I might be wrong about that.
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On May 08 2012 16:37 LatsyrC wrote:
isnt this the same as TvP on BW? if protoss let the terran goes to late game with no damage, protoss is pretty much in a up hill battler, MECH IN BW with 3-3 in upgrades put protoss in a pretty bad position... and no one complains about that, why Terrans in SC2 keep crying about Protoss?
I don't know why people use BW as an example. Blizzard stopped putting major resources on BW within a few years of its release because Blizzard never really cared about BW as an e-sport. This time around, Blizzard is treating e-sports seriously.
Both T and P should have an even advantage in the late game, as well as having an even advantage in the early game. Good game design would probably require a nerf to Terran in the early game but buffing Terran in the later game. Otherwise, it just makes for predictable games where T tries to finish it early, and P tries to hold out for the late game. Predictability is boring and bad for e-sports.
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Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
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On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
This experience is one I have had many times. You have to start enjoying the Protoss posters who say: "just increase your marine ratio", "your viking count", "land your EMPs". Of course as gms and top masters terran, we know this basic advice. However, the problem is more complex than this.
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On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
Replay please. Too few Raxes for 5 base, but I'd still like to see the replay.
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On May 08 2012 12:07 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:39 ZeroTalent wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316483http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13729496In games longer than 25 minutes, where both players have made the quarterfinals or higher multiple times in Playhem dailies, the pro T are 9-23 (28% win rate). If neither player has had any playhem success, and the game goes longer than 20 minutes, the T win rate is about 40%. When you consider that some of those long Terran wins probably involve playing the way Day9 recommends (i.e. trying to stay ahead economically and harass the Protoss to death), and it just takes a while to finish off your opponent sometimes, we are really looking at something like a 70+% win rate for P if both players play passively. If the game clock hits 25 minutes, they're on 3 or more bases, and you haven't managed to trade armies effectively and/or do some economic damage, just quit and move on to the next game. Now this post is worth talking about. So if we subtract the Terran wins from players who do not "[have] any playhem success", then that % is even smaller than 28%. So Korean Terrans in playhem win > 28% passed 25 minutes. Like I said, David Kim should release win rates per unit of time in the Match Up. I guarantee that Terrans are garnering the highest win rates from early, cheesey builds like the ones MVP used. If Protoss were savvy, they would have adapted by now. But if they have failed to adapt by now, I gaurantee they will soon. Since the really strong Terran players realize that we cannot win in the late game, they will push for early timings. (hell, even Koreans with perfect micro can't win -- what does that have to say about us NA gms and high master terrans?). As soon as Protoss wake up and use safer builds that repel these early timings (like the 2 gate we saw the in GSL), Terran will be left with nowhere to go. If Protoss plays safely and passively and does not permit damage from drops, there goes Terrans overall win rate. What we have now: Terran early win rate: High, Terran late game win rate: Low. What we will have soon: Terran early win rate: Low, Terran late game win rate: Low. I'm calling it right now. If not by May, then by June we will see significant drops in TvP win rates across the servers.
I think the future of Terran over the next month to 2 months will be more Terrans trying to seize the Early and Mid game (not because Terrans are overly powerful in the Early or Mid game -- I don't buy that crap that Terran is the strongest race in the Mid game -- but because these builds have some potency and are unorthodox/unexpected.
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On May 09 2012 00:06 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 16:37 LatsyrC wrote:
isnt this the same as TvP on BW? if protoss let the terran goes to late game with no damage, protoss is pretty much in a up hill battler, MECH IN BW with 3-3 in upgrades put protoss in a pretty bad position... and no one complains about that, why Terrans in SC2 keep crying about Protoss? I don't know why people use BW as an example. Blizzard stopped putting major resources on BW within a few years of its release because Blizzard never really cared about BW as an e-sport. This time around, Blizzard is treating e-sports seriously. Both T and P should have an even advantage in the late game, as well as having an even advantage in the early game. Good game design would probably require a nerf to Terran in the early game but buffing Terran in the later game. Otherwise, it just makes for predictable games where T tries to finish it early, and P tries to hold out for the late game. Predictability is boring and bad for e-sports.
They do. It's just that, due to the MULE mechanic, Terran 1base is slightly stronger than Protoss 1base, and Terran players don't know how to play the late game, so naturally they all-in every game and don't play the late-game right, so they deem it imba.
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On May 09 2012 01:35 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken. This experience is one I have had many times. You have to start enjoying the Protoss posters who say: "just increase your marine ratio", "your viking count", "land your EMPs". Of course as gms and top masters terran, we know this basic advice. However, the problem is more complex than this.
It actually is as simple as this. The majority of Terran players literally go mass Marauder with few to no Vikings, Marines, and Ghosts, and botch their engagements over and over, losing their ghosts in almost every single one of them, never getting them up to the critical mass where you can spam EMP's over his whole army+HT's.
Also I would like to see the replay. I feel like you didn't scout a hidden base or something and ate psi storms, or let him expo to 5 base himself after sniping his third....
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On May 09 2012 01:36 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken. Replay please. Too few Raxes for 5 base, but I'd still like to see the replay.
Yeah, need to see this replay. I need to see when the archives and support bay were sniped. If the game went that late, I don't know how 10 rax is expected to keep up with 14-20 gateways that most protoss get.
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On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence."
TvP is pretty balanced, each race has their strengths at different times in the game but I think it's clear by Blizzard's post that these strengths are so slight that good play can mitigate them.
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On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
Cool story bro. This unbiased and 100% correct story of this game surely proves anything in this discussion.
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On May 09 2012 02:11 yoigen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken. Cool story bro. This unbiased and 100% correct story of this game surely proves anything in this discussion.
+1. Post replay as well 
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Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
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About the BW PvT example..
BW PvT late game with terran 3/3 mech is a tough position for protoss but perfectly fine to deal with because of great designed units like arbiters with stasis/recalls, also protoss is usually 1 base ahead.
In BW all matchups are extremely dynamic and action happens in every corner of the map, you won`t believe me, but chaos and overpowered units/spells balance out everything. That`s why BW is so amazing.
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On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran...
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On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
So play it. If you're going to say it's not viable at Masters and above, I have some players to point out to you - players which are not playing below their skill level for "fun", but are actually just reasonable masters players who have always thought sky terran/mech was good. If you want to see it done, stop asking for buffs to make it easier and just go do it.
On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran...
I think the implication is that he says he's a terran, but he's really a protoss.
For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
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On May 09 2012 02:48 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
So play it. If you're going to say it's not viable at Masters and above, I have some players to point out to you - players which are not playing below their skill level for "fun", but are actually just reasonable masters players who have always thought sky terran/mech was good. If you want to see it done, stop asking for buffs to make it easier and just go do it. Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran... I think the implication is that he says he's a terran, but he's really a protoss. For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
I don't believe this. -__-;
You can 1v1 me if you want, first while I'm protoss, second while I'm terran. My protoss is crap, I only know how to do a mediocre 4gate.
You can also look at my in-game profile after adding me using my sig. I was random for two seasons, then switched to Terran. First season doesn't count because I didn't play. 
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On May 09 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 02:21 InoyouS2 wrote:
Protoss posters, (especially Fencer710) are just trying to stir the pot, they see the imbalance, it's clear enough, but they don't care because it helps their ladder rating. How about the Protoss players here try a bit of TvP for once? I know, I know, you're spoiled by your warp gates and chrono boosts and chargelot 1-a, and you don't want your ladder rating to drop :D, but until I see some replays from someone in this thread who has said something along the lines of "build more ghosts" you have zero credibility and nobody will listen to you.
Back to the problem at hand:
Nerf bio play, it's fucking boring, buff Terran T3.
Bio play's strength is in mobility, therefore it does not need to be a full army composition, you should just be able to start with bio and tech to a more cost effective army comp. This also means Blizzard can nerf bio to hell (nerf marauder damage, nerf marine damage, nerf marauder HP...) and it won't have that big of an effect on the match-up because bio's strength is in avoiding engagements.
Lets see some mech, some skyterran, something other than retarded bioballs, bring some element of positioning and tactics to TvP...
Fencer710 plays terran...
I just added him on Bnet. He is a 400 pt low master Terran. I'm sure he knows more about late game TvP then all of us rank 1 master and gm terrans.
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On May 09 2012 00:25 Qibla wrote:
Just played a TvP. Sniped hist tempar archives. Then sniped colossi den, then sniped his thried. Got 5 bases, with 10 rax,3 tech 7 reactored. Double reactored ports. 3/3 ups. Went up against his mass zealot, collosi pheonix army. Traded like 5 times. He just a moved over me, over and over. GG,
This match up is broken.
10 rax on 5 base seems extremely low. at '5 base' you should be at around 20 rax. That's probably why you lost. And 7 reactor rax vs collosi? theres no way you can or should win in that situation, way too many marines and not even close to enough ghost/maradaur production with 3 tech labs.
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EPT
