TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 76

On May 08 2012 09:39 ZeroTalent wrote:


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316483
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13729496

In games longer than 25 minutes, where both players have made the quarterfinals or higher multiple times in Playhem dailies, the pro T are 9-23 (28% win rate). If neither player has had any playhem success, and the game goes longer than 20 minutes, the T win rate is about 40%.

When you consider that some of those long Terran wins probably involve playing the way Day9 recommends (i.e. trying to stay ahead economically and harass the Protoss to death), and it just takes a while to finish off your opponent sometimes, we are really looking at something like a 70+% win rate for P if both players play passively. If the game clock hits 25 minutes, they're on 3 or more bases, and you haven't managed to trade armies effectively and/or do some economic damage, just quit and move on to the next game.

On May 08 2012 09:24 Fencer710 wrote:
Third, if you have the right army composition, it can easily be a-move vs a-move with focus firing by Vikings and carpet EMP's during battle, and the Terran can still be fine if he has a extremely good army composition, for example 20 Ghosts, 50 Marines, 16 Vikings, and 8 Medivacs.

On May 08 2012 09:50 Plansix wrote:
If the game hits the 25 minute mark and you have failed armies effectively and/or do some economic damage, you lose no matter what race you are playing. Who is playing these 25 minute epic games of SC2 where no one trades armies or is still on 3 bases after 25 minutes? What are you people doing?

On May 08 2012 04:40 nailertn wrote:


The raven moves slowly (hydralisk off creep) and has to get close to release the missile (range ~ 5-6). It has 140 HP and the missile is 125 energy. You either engage the protoss army when all your ravens are between 125 and 140 energy (lol) or die to feedback. Zealots are beefy, and each raven has energy for 1 missile that has pitiful damage radius and falloff. What basically happens when you shoot a missile at a zealot is it survives and the three-five nearest stimmed marines die to splash, which I am sure you agree is not too beneficial. If you make a raven, point defense drone is much better than HSM. You also kinda need reactors on starports for medivac / viking production.

On May 08 2012 09:59 ZeroTalent wrote:


And a pony! Seriously if the Protoss lets your Terran opponent get 20 ghosts with lots of energy doesn't that mean they're doing it wrong? Also it's not a-move vs a-move if the terran has to scan to kill the observer, cloak, and then land a bunch of EMPs .

I've seen a lot of comments from both sides about Mass Marauder in the lategame, and I think the Protoss players in the thread have been correct to observe that this isn't a good army composition in the lategame. It made sense when everyone went colossus first and charge didn't blow through concussive shells and archons weren't Massive. But now with so many players going zealot/archon first, and the aforementioned buffs to Zealots and Archons, Marine/Ghost with a handful of marauders to tank (as you are hitting at with this army composition suggestion), slow down zealots, and pick off stalkers, is more cost-effective in most cases.

On May 08 2012 09:39 ZeroTalent wrote:


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316483
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13729496

In games longer than 25 minutes, where both players have made the quarterfinals or higher multiple times in Playhem dailies, the pro T are 9-23 (28% win rate). If neither player has had any playhem success, and the game goes longer than 20 minutes, the T win rate is about 40%.

When you consider that some of those long Terran wins probably involve playing the way Day9 recommends (i.e. trying to stay ahead economically and harass the Protoss to death), and it just takes a while to finish off your opponent sometimes, we are really looking at something like a 70+% win rate for P if both players play passively. If the game clock hits 25 minutes, they're on 3 or more bases, and you haven't managed to trade armies effectively and/or do some economic damage, just quit and move on to the next game.

On May 08 2012 12:07 zmansman17 wrote:


Now this post is worth talking about. So if we subtract the Terran wins from players who do not "[have] any playhem success", then that % is even smaller than 28%. So Korean Terrans in playhem win > 28% passed 25 minutes.

Like I said, David Kim should release win rates per unit of time in the Match Up. I guarantee that Terrans are garnering the highest win rates from early, cheesey builds like the ones MVP used.

If Protoss were savvy, they would have adapted by now. But if they have failed to adapt by now, I gaurantee they will soon. Since the really strong Terran players realize that we cannot win in the late game, they will push for early timings. (hell, even Koreans with perfect micro can't win -- what does that have to say about us NA gms and high master terrans?).

As soon as Protoss wake up and use safer builds that repel these early timings (like the 2 gate we saw the in GSL), Terran will be left with nowhere to go. If Protoss plays safely and passively and does not permit damage from drops, there goes Terrans overall win rate. What we have now: Terran early win rate: High, Terran late game win rate: Low. What we will have soon: Terran early win rate: Low, Terran late game win rate: Low.

I'm calling it right now. If not by May, then by June we will see significant drops in TvP win rates across the servers.

On May 08 2012 12:07 zmansman17 wrote:


Now this post is worth talking about. So if we subtract the Terran wins from players who do not "[have] any playhem success", then that % is even smaller than 28%. So Korean Terrans in playhem win > 28% passed 25 minutes.

Like I said, David Kim should release win rates per unit of time in the Match Up. I guarantee that Terrans are garnering the highest win rates from early, cheesey builds like the ones MVP used.

If Protoss were savvy, they would have adapted by now. But if they have failed to adapt by now, I gaurantee they will soon. Since the really strong Terran players realize that we cannot win in the late game (hell, even Koreans with perfect micro can't win -- what does that have to say about us NA gms and high master terrans?), they will push for early timings.

As soon as Protoss wake up and use safer builds that repel these early timings (like the 2 gate we saw the in GSL), Terran will be left with nowhere to go. If Protoss plays safely and passively and does not permit damage from drops, there goes Terrans overall win rate. I'm calling it right now. If not by May, then by June we will see significant drops across the servers.

On May 08 2012 12:23 ppdealer wrote:


It really depends on the map. Terran isn't only strong in early game, but also in mid game. I think what David Kim saying is that Terran should press their mid game advantage to prevent Protoss from expanding/teching too greedily. At the same time use their superior map presence to out expand Protoss and eventually overwhelming them with superior macro in the lategame. It's tough if the map allows the Protoss to get a third up too easily with just good sentry control (e.g. Cloud Kingdom).

On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:


They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall.



The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win.

It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really.

On May 08 2012 14:12 Huitzi wrote:
It's a matter of AoE and chargelots. You will fight before you hit 200/200, your small armies will trade but the protoss can just use meatshields that wreck through marines/marauders, chargelots, and then they will just decimate it with high templars' storm, collosus, or archon, the AoE is too cheap for the protoss and switching between them is hardly difficult for the protoss as it is for the terran. Also the fact that the upgrades of the protoss also include collosus/immortals makes it even weird design choice, add that to the fact that they also have warpgate mechanic which basically negates any defender's advantage the terran/zerg might have. There are a ton of design choices that I feel Blizzard didn't really took time to think through, the army of MMM cannot compete late game vs continiuing battles vs the protoss. Will blizzard do anything? Who knows, but I doubt it.

On May 08 2012 14:26 babyToSS wrote:
I posted this in the strategy section but feel it will do a lot of good in this thread.

In big ball zealot heavy TvP engagements, I have noticed the concussive shell hurting the terran bio-ball quite a few times. Basically the front line of chargelots take damage and are slowed, the next line of chargelots overtake them and they start tanking the bio ball. Then this next line is slowed and more full health chargelots overtake and start tanking. I feel this is a pretty big factor in why zealots tank so much damage from MMM, where instead of the waves of zealot being blown apart, they alternate between each other and distribute the damage among themselves.

Has anyone else experienced this effect?

On May 08 2012 14:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:


wow i haven't thought of that =O

On May 08 2012 14:32 babyToSS wrote:


Think about it. Early game in fewer army sizes marine/marau is fine against zealots but when there are a lot of them in big engagements, they take forever to die.

On May 08 2012 14:45 babyToSS wrote:


Nevermind. Just tried in unit tester, you can see this happen even with small army sizes. When you try to kite 4-5 zealots with 2-3 marauders with conc shell and stim you can see the zealots alternating between each other on point and tanking the damage evenly .

On May 08 2012 14:16 Fencer710 wrote:

The chargelots take forever to die because Terran players keep making mostly Marauders.

If Terrans would make more Marines, Ghosts, and Medivacs instead, they wouldn't have so much trouble with TvP late-game.