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On May 08 2012 07:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:54 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark. Nobody can be more interested in solving this problem than who are really facing it. Day9's business is media. Ok. He will warp-in 8 zealots. If the protoss has 8 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark, he is going all in and sacking all his tech to do so. You cannot support that off of two bases and tech. If the terran can sniff this out and not take to much damage, they should be able to win the game. Pure warpgate withy delayed AOE tech is going to get stomped by a basic MMM army past the mid game.
He will warp-in 6 zealots and pull 3 probes. That was my last offer.
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zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really.
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On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc.
They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall.
On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really.
The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win.
It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really.
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On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really.
It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce.
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Asymmetrical balance is the different units and different mechanics of the different races all interacting with each other in such a way that things still come out even assuming equal skill in each phase of the game. A certain race being noticeably stronger than another from 9-14 minutes but significantly weaker from 20 minutes on is not good balance or good design.
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On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce.
It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint.
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On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really.
You don't get it dude its so hard at wet paper league!
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On May 08 2012 08:32 forsooth wrote:
Asymmetrical balance is the different units and different mechanics of the different races all interacting with each other in such a way that things still come out even assuming equal skill in each phase of the game. A certain race being noticeably stronger than another from 9-14 minutes but significantly weaker from 20 minutes on is not good balance or good design.
Well said, I wish Blizzard had this mindset...
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On May 08 2012 08:33 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce. It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint.
Considering players like Parting play at an extremely high APM, I'm not sure what makes you think there's anything "easy" about it. And I highly doubt Terrans are going to just stop playing because they suck at PvT (and yeah, that, at the core, is the problem here, especially if you're in Dia or below). If they do, good riddance; they weren't going to amount to anything anyway.
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On May 08 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce. It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint. Considering players like Parting play at an extremely high APM, I'm not sure what makes you think there's anything "easy" about it. And I highly doubt Terrans are going to just stop playing because they suck at PvT (and yeah, that, at the core, is the problem here, especially if you're in Dia or below). If they do, good riddance; they weren't going to amount to anything anyway.
that is definitely not the core problem
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On May 08 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce. It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint. Considering players like Parting play at an extremely high APM, I'm not sure what makes you think there's anything "easy" about it. And I highly doubt Terrans are going to just stop playing because they suck at PvT (and yeah, that, at the core, is the problem here, especially if you're in Dia or below). If they do, good riddance; they weren't going to amount to anything anyway.
Parting and the other protosses who play at high APMs won't suffer from making the race harder to play. If anything it'll be good for the really good protosses, the few that are out there, who will be able to get more out of the race. The ones who will suffer are the guys with 60 APM who roll the terrans with 140 because they realize that they simply need to sit in their base and build up the money composition and march their way to the enemy.
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On May 08 2012 09:02 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce. It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint. Considering players like Parting play at an extremely high APM, I'm not sure what makes you think there's anything "easy" about it. And I highly doubt Terrans are going to just stop playing because they suck at PvT (and yeah, that, at the core, is the problem here, especially if you're in Dia or below). If they do, good riddance; they weren't going to amount to anything anyway. Parting and the other protosses who play at high APMs won't suffer from making the race harder to play. The ones who will suffer are the guys with 60 APM who roll the terrans with 140 because they realize that they simply need to sit in their base and build up the money composition and march their way to the enemy.
False. Suppose Parting plays at X APM. Suppose you make the race in general require 100 more APM to play (to bring those 60 APMers in line). Parting now needs to play at X+60 APM to do everything he was doing previously.
No thanks.
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On May 08 2012 09:03 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 09:02 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 08:41 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:33 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 08:30 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really. It is irrelevant at lower levels. If you start balancing the game around Diamond players, you're going to end up making the pro scene retardedly imbalanced, and if the pros aren't winning because of skill, it makes the competition a farce. It's only irrelevant if you don't care about having a playing community. But that's beside the point. I don't ask for Blizzard to nerf one race or buff the other, I want them to make Protoss harder to play, and I do consider TvP on all sides a farce right now. The matchup is utter shit from a spectator standpoint. Considering players like Parting play at an extremely high APM, I'm not sure what makes you think there's anything "easy" about it. And I highly doubt Terrans are going to just stop playing because they suck at PvT (and yeah, that, at the core, is the problem here, especially if you're in Dia or below). If they do, good riddance; they weren't going to amount to anything anyway. Parting and the other protosses who play at high APMs won't suffer from making the race harder to play. The ones who will suffer are the guys with 60 APM who roll the terrans with 140 because they realize that they simply need to sit in their base and build up the money composition and march their way to the enemy. False. Suppose Parting plays at X APM. Suppose you make the race in general require 100 more APM to play (to bring those 60 APMers in line). Parting now needs to play at X+60 APM to do everything he was doing previously. No thanks.
False. Suppose that Parting plays at X APM. Suppose you make the race in general harder to play but also benefit better players who can control it better. Partings X APM is now more useful.
Yes please.
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On May 07 2012 14:01 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 12:07 ZeroTalent wrote:I feel like this discussion might be more useful if people took a look at the amount of life and DPS a 3/3/1 Protoss lategame army has (let's say 3 Colossi, 4 Archons, 3 HTs, 8 stalkers, and whatever is left in supply Zealots) versus. The last time I did this, if you give both armies equal supply, after stim the Terran army had about 800 DPS and 6000 HP, while the Protoss Army had 700 DPS and 8500-9000 HP, without considering splash damage on either side. And the Protoss Army has more splash available than Terran. So for Terran to win you need - Cloaked ghosts that land money EMPs on power units and stay alive enough to hit the zealots (where as your chances are ruined if he lands one or two good storms, you've got to get great value out of most of your EMPs)
- Positioning that keeps their power units out of the fight (making Zealots walk up and down ramps or around gaps, letting the vikings get free shots at the colossi as they try to walk into range of the bio, etc.)
- A different army with higher DPS ... you'd need Reapers, mech units and/or HSM to get it; BCs and Banshees are no help
- A different army with more hitpoints
- Bunkers or PFs (I think this is an underexplored response to Turtle Toss ... Turtle harder and try splitting the map in your favor putting tons of defensive structures in the middle of it. I'm bad but maybe it's worth a try lol.)
- A bigger army by suiciding SCVs and relying on mules.
- Something else that no one's thought of yet
In your second paragraph and first point you fail to mention Medivac healing, as well as ghost EMP's on the Protoss army, plus the fact that Vikings and kiting shut-down Colossus.
... okay. each medivac reduces P DPS by 9. It's not enough to make up for the huge difference in health.
... the bullet points mention kiting/baiting colossi and EMPs. But all the EMPs are going to do is even up the fight, unless you've got a ton of ghosts (as some have mentioned). Meanwhile storm has a larger radius, only does slightly less damage, and Terran units occupy less space than Protoss units.
I'm not saying it's unwinnable for Terran. I'm saying if it's A-move vs A-move, the Terran needs to have some sort of advantage to have a reasonable shot at winning. EMPs, positioning, upgrades, better micro to kite units & avoid storms -- whatever it is.
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On May 08 2012 08:26 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:59 S_SienZ wrote:On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%. Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc. They posted TvP statistics when Alive and Genius had their bo3 the previous season, and Genius had a 100% win rate vs terran post 20 minutes, going at 8-0, so there's another one I can recall. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 08:25 cydial wrote:
zzz it's funny how even if imbalance does exist in this match up there are people arrogant enough to think that they are skilled enough to the point that this imbalance makes a difference when they play.
Pathetic really. The biggest problem about TvP right now is that the matchup is awful to play when you don't have korean micro, not the other way around. It hits the diamond-masters players the hardest right now, because of how much easier it is to defend and let a game reach the endgame compared to doing enough damage in the midgame to get the lead needed to win. It's funny how people are arrogant enough to think that imbalance is irrelevant at lower levels. Pathetic really.
The problem is that Protoss' have adapted their compositions for the Late Game, while Terran have not. They are still going Mass Marauder with only a few Medivacs, Vikings, Ghosts, and Marines. In theory this works out fine if you have really good micro because of Concussive Shell and the fact that they take 2 less damage per attack than marines, take less damage from splash etcetera, but in reality they don't do enough DPS to take out the chargelots and archons before all the splash kills them anyway.
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On May 08 2012 04:04 spiralyguy wrote:
I am curious about something. I see alot of T struggling to deal with large 3/3 zealot balls + aoe. How come Terrans never use Seeker Missiles combined with EMP to kill the zealots? Ignorant Zerg here, just wondering how that would work. Seems like ravens are kind of an untapped resource, I beleive earlier in this thread people even talk about how Terran ends with a large gas surplus. I know you can feedback ravens, but that really comes down to who's micro is better.
The range on HSM isn't very good. Feedback is incredibly high range so you will always have to have the Ravens in the back of the army even if they were to buff range. Also Seeker Splash does friendly fire (I think?). If they eliminated friendly fire from HSM that might help. Ravens are in general underused, especially in TvP where you don't really need a lot of gas but do need a lot of minerals they might be worth exploring. Of course it's a very long play as you need to research the energy upgrade and HSM and wait for even more energy.
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On May 08 2012 09:10 ZeroTalent wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 14:01 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 12:07 ZeroTalent wrote:I feel like this discussion might be more useful if people took a look at the amount of life and DPS a 3/3/1 Protoss lategame army has (let's say 3 Colossi, 4 Archons, 3 HTs, 8 stalkers, and whatever is left in supply Zealots) versus. The last time I did this, if you give both armies equal supply, after stim the Terran army had about 800 DPS and 6000 HP, while the Protoss Army had 700 DPS and 8500-9000 HP, without considering splash damage on either side. And the Protoss Army has more splash available than Terran. So for Terran to win you need - Cloaked ghosts that land money EMPs on power units and stay alive enough to hit the zealots (where as your chances are ruined if he lands one or two good storms, you've got to get great value out of most of your EMPs)
- Positioning that keeps their power units out of the fight (making Zealots walk up and down ramps or around gaps, letting the vikings get free shots at the colossi as they try to walk into range of the bio, etc.)
- A different army with higher DPS ... you'd need Reapers, mech units and/or HSM to get it; BCs and Banshees are no help
- A different army with more hitpoints
- Bunkers or PFs (I think this is an underexplored response to Turtle Toss ... Turtle harder and try splitting the map in your favor putting tons of defensive structures in the middle of it. I'm bad but maybe it's worth a try lol.)
- A bigger army by suiciding SCVs and relying on mules.
- Something else that no one's thought of yet
In your second paragraph and first point you fail to mention Medivac healing, as well as ghost EMP's on the Protoss army, plus the fact that Vikings and kiting shut-down Colossus. ... okay. each medivac reduces P DPS by 9. It's not enough to make up for the huge difference in health. ... the bullet points mention kiting/baiting colossi and EMPs. But all the EMPs are going to do is even up the fight, unless you've got a ton of ghosts (as some have mentioned). Meanwhile storm has a larger radius, only does slightly less damage, and Terran units occupy less space than Protoss units. I'm not saying it's unwinnable for Terran. I'm saying if it's A-move vs A-move, the Terran needs to have some sort of advantage to have a reasonable shot at winning. EMPs, positioning, upgrades, better micro to kite units & avoid storms -- whatever it is.
You're wrong on three points.
First, Medivacs heal damage, so regardless of wether the Protoss is shooting or not, you're getting healed 9 HP/S.
Second, EMP's take off a third of Chargelot HP, all but 10 Archon HP, and half Stalker HP. That's like getting carpet storms for two seconds on your bio ball. The Marines will be almost dead (Archons) the Marauders will be somewhat hurt (Stalkers) and Vikings and Medivacs will be softened a bit. (chargelots) The difference here is that the roles are completely different, and the damage for the Terran can be healed during battle, while the Protoss cannot.
Third, if you have the right army composition, it can easily be a-move vs a-move with focus firing by Vikings and carpet EMP's during battle, and the Terran can still be fine if he has a extremely good army composition, for example 20 Ghosts, 50 Marines, 16 Vikings, and 8 Medivacs.
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On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316483
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=13729496
In games longer than 25 minutes, where both players have made the quarterfinals or higher multiple times in Playhem dailies, the pro T are 9-23 (28% win rate). If neither player has had any playhem success, and the game goes longer than 20 minutes, the T win rate is about 40%.
When you consider that some of those long Terran wins probably involve playing the way Day9 recommends (i.e. trying to stay ahead economically and harass the Protoss to death), and it just takes a while to finish off your opponent sometimes, we are really looking at something like a 70+% win rate for P if both players play passively. If the game clock hits 25 minutes, they're on 3 or more bases, and you haven't managed to trade armies effectively and/or do some economic damage, just quit and move on to the next game.
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it would be interesting to see if ravens and seeker missiles came into play, except i feel like blizzard would have to make them either
- cheaper
or
- build faster/start with more energy
to make them really usefull, seeker missle is 125 mana, which is ~2/3 of a raven's energy
but that only makes seeker missiles usefull, doesnt change the fact that feedbacks will destroy the ravens instantly
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On May 08 2012 09:41 renaissanceMAN wrote:
it would be interesting to see if ravens and seeker missiles came into play, except i feel like blizzard would have to make them either
- cheaper
or
- build faster/start with more energy
to make them really usefull, seeker missle is 125 mana, which is ~2/3 of a raven's energy
but that only makes seeker missiles usefull, doesnt change the fact that feedbacks will destroy the ravens instantly
What are you going to use HSM against anyway? Stalkers are too fast and have blink, collosus have a lot of health and can be taken care of by vikings, HT will feedback, and chargelots will just run into your army and blow it up.
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EPT
