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On May 08 2012 06:31 Dephy wrote:
i think majority of terrans agree that late game tvp is really toss favored, but in my oppinion if you do early-mid game shenanigans like mvp, youl have really good winrate agains protoss.
So just cheeze them every game and make them rage.
No one is arguing or doing anything else. The point is that the matchup is stale because of these issues, terran being too strong in the mid game, and protoss being dominant in the endgame. It's statistically balanced, but it's not fun.
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On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard.
Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs.
On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly.
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On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly.
I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark.
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gold/plat terran here, so i be newbie...but I wanted to see what it was like play toss, so i offraced for the first time as an experiment on ladder.
first 3 games EVER as toss were losses to zerg/toss/toss, I spent most of the game trying to figure out hotkeys, finding out warpgate required cybercore, realizing u start with 10 supply not 11, selecting way too many probes to build multiple buildings, chronoboosting mineral patches because brain programmed to think mules, amazed at there is built in key for warpgates, trying to find buildings to hotkey but nothing much really, make crap ton of cannons....
4th game vs terran, win lol, only needed gateway, warp in w/e and some templars, see bioball? click bioball! watch bioball disappear 
after that i thought there is no way i can let myself play toss in that matchup, just...not humane 
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On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark.
Nobody can be more interested in solving this problem than who are really facing it. Day9's business is media.
Ok. He will warp-in 8 zealots.
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On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly.
ok, so why does thorzain's gameplan evolve around going into super lategame regularly? explain?
you talk about terran's midgame advantage being able to harass the opponent... bla... just watch the daily. be less shortsighted. thanks. (ONE CAN WISH AT LEAST...)
also, i bet my ass day9 would easily be GM if he played regularly. day9 who? suck my plott.
ps: blizzard never used the word "harass" when talking about a midgame advantage. maybe it's what they meant, maybe not. just watch the fkin daily. sean gives an entirely new perspective on "midgame advantage" that people like you have never even dared to think about.
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On May 08 2012 06:54 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark. Nobody can be more interested in solving this problem than who are really facing it. Day9's business is media. Ok. He will warp-in 8 zealots.
If the protoss has 8 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark, he is going all in and sacking all his tech to do so. You cannot support that off of two bases and tech. If the terran can sniff this out and not take to much damage, they should be able to win the game. Pure warpgate withy delayed AOE tech is going to get stomped by a basic MMM army past the mid game.
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It's funny to see how much people love day9. I personally think day9 is below average casters, and not comparable with GMs.
About toss and terran late game? Toss in general is better, so terran needs to try to finish in mid-game.
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On May 08 2012 07:12 MarcoBrei wrote:
It's funny to see how much people love day9. I personally think day9 is below average casters, and not comparable with GMs.
About toss and terran late game? Toss in general is better, so terran needs to try to finish in mid-game.
yea, i love day9 so much, i didnt even watch him the last 1.5 years. cool huh? i still think he really does have a point in his latest daily.
funny to see how much people love day9... yea yea...
you know what's sad to see? the arrogance, ignorance and shortsightedness of the SC2 community. i mean, there was a time where people truly believed that roach/corruptor was the pinnacle of ZvP... and basically TL.net wholeheartedly agreed with that mainstream opinion (cause every GM was agreeing)... and now... well... ah, just suck my plott. thanks.
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Everyone please chill out with Day9. He's incredibly smart when it comes to SC2 but he's not infallible or all knowing.
Day9 was clearly in the wrong when he was arguing with IdrA about early game Zerg scouting. He can be wrong. He has been sorely wrong about balance issues in the past. Stop quoting him and referencing his daily's as if he is the Textbook on SC2. If you really think Day9 is completely objective, use your brain again.
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On May 08 2012 07:26 SupLilSon wrote:
Everyone please chill out with Day9. He's incredibly smart when it comes to SC2 but he's not infallible or all knowing.
Day9 was clearly in the wrong when he was arguing with IdrA about early game Zerg scouting. He can be wrong. He has been sorely wrong about balance issues in the past. Stop quoting him and referencing his daily's as if he is the Textbook on SC2. If you really think Day9 is completely objective, use your brain again.
no one ever said that. day9 just gave good food for thought in his latest daily.
basically everyone, literally EVERYONE in this thread translates "midgame advantage" into "terran can harass protoss". day9 gives a new perspective that should be taken into consideration.
it's just the fkin same old same old. back in the day people were arguing how broodlords arent viable in ZvP, LOL. AND EVERYONE AGREED. CAUSE IDRA SAID IT. OK?
dont get me started on archon toilets. most cheesiest, unreliable, overpowered strategy ever... oh wait... it's standard now. if i said it would become the standard in PvZ, people would have flamed the shit out of me. true story.
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On May 08 2012 07:18 beg wrote:
i mean, there was a time where people truly believed that roach/corruptor was the pinnacle of ZvP... and basically TL.net wholeheartedly agreed with that mainstream opinion (cause every GM was agreeing)... and now... well... ah, just suck my plott. thanks.
It's not like there were any significant balance patches between now and then. No, that would just make that argument stupid.
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lol people think day9 can compare to korean teamhouses. Watch GSL PvT and say PvT is balanced late game, please do that.
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
Yeah day9 can solve all problems that all korean wisdom could not (i doubt it). Its just media.
Same as artosis and nony being wrong on other things.
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On May 08 2012 07:32 Maetl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:18 beg wrote:
i mean, there was a time where people truly believed that roach/corruptor was the pinnacle of ZvP... and basically TL.net wholeheartedly agreed with that mainstream opinion (cause every GM was agreeing)... and now... well... ah, just suck my plott. thanks. It's not like there were any significant balance patches between now and then. No, that would just make that argument stupid.
cool, give example. infestor buff, ok. you really think that's what made broodlords viable? oh lord please... PLEASE... omfg...
i really knew someone would come up with that argument without actually saying what made broodlords viable. i can see into the future, omg \o/
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On May 08 2012 07:33 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:32 Maetl wrote:On May 08 2012 07:18 beg wrote:
i mean, there was a time where people truly believed that roach/corruptor was the pinnacle of ZvP... and basically TL.net wholeheartedly agreed with that mainstream opinion (cause every GM was agreeing)... and now... well... ah, just suck my plott. thanks. It's not like there were any significant balance patches between now and then. No, that would just make that argument stupid. cool, give example. infestor buff, ok. you really think that's what made broodlords viable? oh lord please... PLEASE... omfg... i really knew someone would come up with that argument without actually saying what made broodlords viable. i can see into the future, omg \o/
How do zergs make it to BL right now? Turtle with infestors. Try thinking before you open whatever orifice it is you are speaking out of.
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On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%.
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On May 08 2012 07:38 Maetl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:33 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 07:32 Maetl wrote:On May 08 2012 07:18 beg wrote:
i mean, there was a time where people truly believed that roach/corruptor was the pinnacle of ZvP... and basically TL.net wholeheartedly agreed with that mainstream opinion (cause every GM was agreeing)... and now... well... ah, just suck my plott. thanks. It's not like there were any significant balance patches between now and then. No, that would just make that argument stupid. cool, give example. infestor buff, ok. you really think that's what made broodlords viable? oh lord please... PLEASE... omfg... i really knew someone would come up with that argument without actually saying what made broodlords viable. i can see into the future, omg \o/ How do zergs make it to BL right now? Turtle with infestors. Try thinking before you open whatever orifice it is you are speaking out of.
you think infestors play more than a siderole for getting to broodlords? from my understanding they don't. you need them to protect your BLs, so basically you could get BLs and infestors roughly at the same time and until then defend with ling roach.
i think that's basically what stephano does. he doesnt get infestors so much earlier than BLs.
i mean, seriously. you really think the infestor patch suddenly made the BL style viable? like really? cmon cmon pls. try thinking.
the real question is... were the old infestors not able to fill the role the new ones do in ZvP? i doubt it. i'd argue the reason why ZvP lategame is so strong for Z now is that they figured out how to open 3base. another thing everyone thought was impossible. has nothing to do with the infestor buff.
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On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark.
GM Terrans (who are not pros) are actually less invested in this problem. Day9 makes a living off this game, whether it is perceived as balanced and interesting affects his livelihood in a major way. And predictably, he never admits there's a problem with anything. His opinion is that you're better off trying to improve instead of worrying about these things, but that opinion precludes any meaningful discussion about SC2 balance or design. Make no mistake though, he has a stake, and a bias in this discussion, he's nowhere near objective.
I think the closest you could get to "objective" on this topic is someone like Morrow, who plays both T and Z on a very high level, but doesn't play TvP specifically, and therefore has no stake in this whole thing.
On May 08 2012 06:54 utrabo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark. Nobody can be more interested in solving this problem than who are really facing it. Day9's business is media. Ok. He will warp-in 8 zealots.
And Terrans have the best drop defence ever, because it all gets cleaned up by the units which just spawned from their 8 raxes.
...
The "just warp in zealots" thing only applies in lategame, where the Protoss can afford to have a bunch of extra gateways and free supply specifically reserved for drop defense. In the midgame, he needs to use his warpgate cycles to stay on top of his macro. Sometimes he'll get a cycle just as your drop comes in, but that's no different from units spawning out of raxes in a similar situation. You can't defend against midgame drops without leaving units in your base specifically for that purpose, just like every other race.
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On May 08 2012 07:45 Anari wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 07:33 sertas wrote:
All terrans basicly lose 100% of the time in lategame in gsl. A game longer then 25 minutes in PvT is like 100% winrate for protoss.
I am not going to right off discredit this because I do believe that Protoss has the stronger late game; but can I have a source? I highly doubt that it is LIKE a 100% win rate. Sure it might be high 60s perhaps even low 70s but it is highly unlikely that it is higher than 80%.
Well PartinG has a post 25 min 100% win rate I believe, but you could say that's PartinG
But I'm honestly having a hard time recalling a super lategame PvT where Terran won while I can easily come up with a ton of examples where Protoss won even without PartinG. From the very old days when Mvp was untouchable who was the 1st person to beat him? Squirtle (that GSTL game with Mothership), HuK v Clide on CbtS, most of Creator's games during the GSTL where Prime got 2nd etc.
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On May 08 2012 07:52 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark. GM Terrans (who are not pros) are actually less invested in this problem. Day9 makes a living off this game, whether it is perceived as balanced and interesting affects his livelihood in a major way. And predictably, he never admits there's a problem with anything. His opinion is that you're better off trying to improve instead of worrying about these things, but that opinion precludes any meaningful discussion about SC2 balance or design. Make no mistake though, he has a stake, and a bias in this discussion, he's nowhere near objective. I think the closest you could get to "objective" on this topic is someone like Morrow, who plays both T and Z on a very high level, but doesn't play TvP specifically, and therefore has no stake in this whole thing. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 06:54 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:46 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 06:41 utrabo wrote:On May 08 2012 06:13 beg wrote:On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave." maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that. and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard. Who is day9? There is GM Terrans saying the same on the thread. Between day9 and GMs, I'll stay with GMs. On the post Blizzard is trying to compare the effort the Terran has to make to harass the opponent, with the effort the Protoss has to make to defend it. But Protoss has the best harass defense technology of the game! You make a drop, they warp-in 10 zealots instantly. I will take Day 9 over GM terrans. He is far more objective and interested in seeing if a problem can be solved, rather than complaining about the problem. And protoss is not going to have 10 warpgates at the 10-17 minute mark. Nobody can be more interested in solving this problem than who are really facing it. Day9's business is media. Ok. He will warp-in 8 zealots. And Terrans have the best drop defence ever, because it all gets cleaned up by the units which just spawned from their 8 raxes. ... The "just warp in zealots" thing only applies in lategame, where the Protoss can afford to have a bunch of extra gateways and free supply specifically reserved for drop defense. In the midgame, he needs to use his warpgate cycles to stay on top of his macro. Sometimes he'll get a cycle just as your drop comes in, but that's no different from units spawning out of raxes in a similar situation. You can't defend against midgame drops without leaving units in your base specifically for that purpose, just like every other race.
"And Terrans have the best drop defence ever, because it all gets cleaned up by the units which just spawned from their 8 raxes."
Is this real life?
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EPT
