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On May 08 2012 04:04 spiralyguy wrote:
I am curious about something. I see alot of T struggling to deal with large 3/3 zealot balls + aoe. How come Terrans never use Seeker Missiles combined with EMP to kill the zealots? Ignorant Zerg here, just wondering how that would work. Seems like ravens are kind of an untapped resource, I beleive earlier in this thread people even talk about how Terran ends with a large gas surplus. I know you can feedback ravens, but that really comes down to who's micro is better.
seeker missiles have range 6. no pro would ever let them get into casting range of zealots, unless the zealots are already charging towards the terran bioball. in this case, launching a seeker missle on them would be like nuking your own army.
in general, i feel like many woes with this matchup could be removed by simply making feedback remove energy, but not damage all non-biological units. thors are actually great against toss if not for feedback.
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On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes.
You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 .
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On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 .
Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish.
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On May 08 2012 02:34 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:18 hysterial wrote:On May 08 2012 00:40 power-overwhelming wrote:
Day9 covered it perfectly last night. Save yourself the argument and just watch that daily. No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. I'm mid/high masters and I found last nights daily helpful. I'm certainly not claiming i'm a high level player, but if someone at mid/high masters can find the daily informative then it should be the case that others around or below my level should too. In fact, I started playing exactly how Day9 was instructing yesterday a couple of weeks ago, (i.e. not trying to sledgehammer protoss off 2base between 10-16 minutes) and I've seen a huge improvement in my TvP.
For reals, I was top 8 last season and I still watch a lot of day9.
Maybe not newbie tuesdays, but I get some of my builds when he does xx pro vs xx pro (like huks dt,partings pvt/pvz), or if not builds at the very least some cool concepts.
Probably not too relevant to thread but I don't like to see someone bashing day9 when his info is good for all ^_^
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Just throwing in my quarter here but I dont see why terrans complain why they cant beat protoss with tier1-1.5 units at the 20 min mark. Terran has to eveolve into a point where we see soemthign like marine thor against protoss in mid game. Im not race bashing here but before you complain how many games have you lost playing as terran going mmm losing against a gatewaay/collosi/storm build? And then how many times have you lost after doing sky terran or mech. It seems evenly matched up but because of the current metagame people arent using terran to its fullest. -Random masters rank 1 formerly terran player
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On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish.
http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpg
this is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ?
he may have believed it was about to finish
He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMo
This game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3
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On May 08 2012 04:04 spiralyguy wrote:
I am curious about something. I see alot of T struggling to deal with large 3/3 zealot balls + aoe. How come Terrans never use Seeker Missiles combined with EMP to kill the zealots? Ignorant Zerg here, just wondering how that would work. Seems like ravens are kind of an untapped resource, I beleive earlier in this thread people even talk about how Terran ends with a large gas surplus. I know you can feedback ravens, but that really comes down to who's micro is better.
The raven moves slowly (hydralisk off creep) and has to get close to release the missile (range ~ 5-6). It has 140 HP and the missile is 125 energy. You either engage the protoss army when all your ravens are between 125 and 140 energy (lol) or die to feedback. Zealots are beefy, and each raven has energy for 1 missile that has pitiful damage radius and falloff. What basically happens when you shoot a missile at a zealot is it survives and the three-five nearest stimmed marines die to splash, which I am sure you agree is not too beneficial. If you make a raven, point defense drone is much better than HSM. You also kinda need reactors on starports for medivac / viking production.
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On May 08 2012 04:32 DeluXe1337 wrote:
Just throwing in my quarter here but I dont see why terrans complain why they cant beat protoss with tier1-1.5 units at the 20 min mark. Terran has to eveolve into a point where we see soemthign like marine thor against protoss in mid game. Im not race bashing here but before you complain how many games have you lost playing as terran going mmm losing against a gatewaay/collosi/storm build? And then how many times have you lost after doing sky terran or mech. It seems evenly matched up but because of the current metagame people arent using terran to its fullest. -Random masters rank 1 formerly terran player
Mech and Sky terran builds only work on the surprise factor, you're praying the opponent is both mechanically and strategically weaker than you. Immortals wreck mech while Stalkers are good vs everything Terran that flies. There are rare events when pro players actually vary their builds in TvP (like MKP vs Genius GSL 2012 Feb) but in those instances, they're always labeled as all ins (and rightfully so) and only work because the opponent was underprepared, not because said build its a superior alternative to MMM or 1/1/1.
The Problem really isn't in the early-mid game (as a matter of fact i'd say that Terran is really good at winning when it comes to all-ins and greedy builds) , it lies on the late/very late game, terran isn't going MMMGV because they're lazy, they're doing so because those are the best tools to fight off maxed protoss armies. For me that is just wrong, people shouldn't be forced to all-in to win a matchup, that is bad balance.
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On May 08 2012 04:26 ant885 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:34 Absentia wrote:On May 08 2012 02:18 hysterial wrote:On May 08 2012 00:40 power-overwhelming wrote:
Day9 covered it perfectly last night. Save yourself the argument and just watch that daily. No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. I'm mid/high masters and I found last nights daily helpful. I'm certainly not claiming i'm a high level player, but if someone at mid/high masters can find the daily informative then it should be the case that others around or below my level should too. In fact, I started playing exactly how Day9 was instructing yesterday a couple of weeks ago, (i.e. not trying to sledgehammer protoss off 2base between 10-16 minutes) and I've seen a huge improvement in my TvP. For reals, I was top 8 last season and I still watch a lot of day9. Maybe not newbie tuesdays, but I get some of my builds when he does xx pro vs xx pro (like huks dt,partings pvt/pvz), or if not builds at the very least some cool concepts. Probably not too relevant to thread but I don't like to see someone bashing day9 when his info is good for all ^_^
He is good for everyone who wants to get better. Most of the people who claim he is in idiot have a poor understanding of the game and how match ups should be played. Day 9 is one of the main reasons that my PvZ went from my worst to my best match up. Learning new timings and knowing when you can and cannot doing something is one of the most liberating parts of SC2. Nothing makes you feel more awesome than exactly how long you can have a stalker out on the map against lings if you scout the timing on zergling speed. But getting better requires you to dig in and really look at the problems in how you play. I think a lot of the people shitting on Day 9 are unwilling to or have never done that. They assume that the flaws in their play will just work themselves out.
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On May 08 2012 04:19 Black Gun wrote:in general, i feel like many woes with this matchup could be removed by simply making feedback remove energy, but not damage all non-biological units. thors are actually great against toss if not for feedback.
Are they? I always felt they are good at taking the heat off marines but in exchange slow down your army considerably and they die badly to chargelots / blink stalkers.
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On May 08 2012 04:34 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish. http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpgthis is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ? He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMoThis game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3
800 is common for a protoss at that stage of the game. To make 4 initial templar cost 600 and he may have been focusing on colossi or needed 4 stalkers. If he needs 3 archons right now, he can't afford storm that will finishes after he lost the game.
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On May 08 2012 04:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:34 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish. http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpgthis is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ? he may have believed it was about to finish He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMoThis game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3 800 is common for a protoss at that stage of the game. To make 4 initial templar cost 600 and he may have been focusing on colossi or needed 4 stalkers. If he needs 3 archons right now, he can't afford storm that will finishes after he lost the game.
sigh watch the game yourself ipl 4 Puma vs Creator game 3 ,after Templar Archives finished, he built 2 more achron and he got 300 gas left and doing nothing ... FFS he forgot the god damn storm .
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On May 08 2012 04:15 Absentia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 02:42 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 02:34 Absentia wrote:On May 08 2012 02:18 hysterial wrote:On May 08 2012 00:40 power-overwhelming wrote:
Day9 covered it perfectly last night. Save yourself the argument and just watch that daily. No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. I'm mid/high masters and I found last nights daily helpful. I'm certainly not claiming i'm a high level player, but if someone at mid/high masters can find the daily informative then it should be the case that others around or below my level should too. In fact, I started playing exactly how Day9 was instructing yesterday a couple of weeks ago, (i.e. not trying to sledgehammer protoss off 2base between 10-16 minutes) and I've seen a huge improvement in my TvP. Good to hear. That is the worst time for the protoss, as we are attemting to get up AOEs and upgrades. No protoss is going to push out against an active terran at that point of the game. Delaying their 3rd base while you get up yours is a good way to get that lead you need against the protoss. Did you find it hard to trade efficently with the protoss mid game army? Previously I found the matchup difficult because i'd be so dedicated to doing damage off 2 bases and just neglect getting a third until around the 14 minute mark. Obviously this slows down all kinds of things - notably ghosts and 2/2+ upgrades. Basically i'd be trying to drop constantly off two bases either doing no damage or just losing medivacs. The big things i've done recently to improve my TvP include: - Being extremely marine heavy for pretty much the entire game - Building a third before rax(4 and 5) - Much more scanning with OC energy past two base saturation - Throwing away around 20 SCVs once I have 4/5 orbitals and a maxed out army - Using only 2 control groups for my army instead of 3 The TvPs I do win are practically always in late game scenarios, (unless I hold off some kind of all in). Having the extra supply generated by 20 less scvs really does make a massive difference in late game engagements. Storm in a late game engagement is still difficult to deal with but I've definitely seen a marked improvement after implementing some of the aforementioned changes.
I've been doing all of those as well actually, but a key part is trying to delay the protosses third for as long as possible while getting yours early. It does get harder and harder, since defending is always something that will end up outevolving specific timings, but for now it works. For the endgame I'm experimenting with reapers, especially after throwing SCVs away to free up supply, since they benefit from your upgrades, medivacs, absolutely shit on zealots, can hold their own against stalkers, snipe expansions and workers faster than anything else, are faster than stimmed marines and you already have the production up for them with the gas pool.
I think the matchup is fundamentally broken, mainly because protoss is a badly designed race, but the endgame isn't pitch black for me, at least not yet. If nothing else tvp practices my micro management more than any other matchup at the moment.
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On May 08 2012 04:57 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:54 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish. http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpgthis is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ? he may have believed it was about to finish He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMoThis game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3 800 is common for a protoss at that stage of the game. To make 4 initial templar cost 600 and he may have been focusing on colossi or needed 4 stalkers. If he needs 3 archons right now, he can't afford storm that will finishes after he lost the game. sigh watch the game yourself ipl 4 Puma vs Creator game 3 ,after Templar Archives finished, he built 2 more achron and he got 300 gas left and doing nothing ... FFS he forgot the god damn storm .
Interesting.
I will start incorporating making the protoss forget to get stuff into my builds from now on 
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On May 08 2012 05:00 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:57 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:54 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish. http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpgthis is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ? he may have believed it was about to finish He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMoThis game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3 800 is common for a protoss at that stage of the game. To make 4 initial templar cost 600 and he may have been focusing on colossi or needed 4 stalkers. If he needs 3 archons right now, he can't afford storm that will finishes after he lost the game. sigh watch the game yourself ipl 4 Puma vs Creator game 3 ,after Templar Archives finished, he built 2 more achron and he got 300 gas left and doing nothing ... FFS he forgot the god damn storm . Interesting. I will start incorporating making the protoss forget to get stuff into my builds from now on
did you watch the game yourself ??
He did too many mistake . .. .
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On May 08 2012 05:00 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:57 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:54 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:34 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:26 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 04:20 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 04:15 Plansix wrote:On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote:On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote:
lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds.
Explains.. a lot.
Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. You should look at the income before said something like day9 lol ,and no reason for protoss to attack before 3-3 . Just because he had 200/200 at one point does not mean he is going to spend it on that. He may be using it for colossi(200 gas) or archons(300 gas) to make sure that he could hold off further terran agression. The attack before 3/3 may be been a mistake, but people make those in game and he may have believed it was about to finish. http://i.imgur.com/PW52d.jpgthis is the picture when the Templar Archives finish almost 800 gas lol wtf ? he may have believed it was about to finish He just start 3-3 before attack lol http://imgur.com/ldyMoThis game is nothing but a lot of mistake by creator , he forgot charge,storm and 3-3 800 is common for a protoss at that stage of the game. To make 4 initial templar cost 600 and he may have been focusing on colossi or needed 4 stalkers. If he needs 3 archons right now, he can't afford storm that will finishes after he lost the game. sigh watch the game yourself ipl 4 Puma vs Creator game 3 ,after Templar Archives finished, he built 2 more achron and he got 300 gas left and doing nothing ... FFS he forgot the god damn storm . Interesting. I will start incorporating making the protoss forget to get stuff into my builds from now on
Remembering that stuff under pressure is the sign of a good player. Creator would likely have remembered it if Puma had not been up in his face for the entire game.
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"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave."
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On May 08 2012 05:35 utrabo wrote:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage."
Should be:
"We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, terran should just leave."
maybe the latest day9 daily can change your opinion about that.
and today there's a daily on TvP lategame engagements (: ... anyway, day9 disagrees with you really hard.
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i think majority of terrans agree that late game tvp is really toss favored, but in my oppinion if you do early-mid game shenanigans like mvp, youl have really good winrate agains protoss.
So just cheeze them every game and make them rage.
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EPT
