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On May 07 2012 23:54 Mattacate wrote:
My basic interpretation for most of the terran in this thread;
WAH WAH WAH WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME A CERTAIN WAY TO WIN AGAINST A CERTAIN STYLE.
Well, fuck. I'm fairly sure starcraft has always been 19+ minute macro games with light harassment followed by a large engagement in the centre of the map, and any other game should never ever happen and we must ALWAYS ALWAYS GO LATE GAME AND 2 BASE ALL INS ARE THE DEVIL.
Stop whining and do what works, christ.
LOL
Let me guess. You play protoss in the bronze league ?
You know, this is a strategy game.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a game designed so that multiple strategies can be developed ?
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In response to the OP:
From a Protoss standpoint, could I not argue that it puts me in a spot where if the Terran does any sort of damage in the early-midgame with any of their numerous options, that I'm pretty much perpetually fucked and unable to get to any point of contention?
This is besides the fact that I simply disagree that Protoss have the advantage late game. Little has changed in terms of actual balance since this past October or so where Terran were roflstomping Protoss in every stage of the game, in every event. What changed was the way Protoss play. There are still top tier Terran who absolutely shit on Protoss, and it seems to me that other Terran players are simply refusing to use the methods they use. Far too often I see Terran refuse to get enough vikings.
If you watch someone like Puma (great TvPer) play, he often gets what looks like -too many- vikings. But the benefit is then the Colossi die nearly instantly in a fight, and we all know what happens to Gateway units against stimmed bio with medvacs, even with a numbers advantage (think of how much the Protoss has to use to stop drops for example)
I guess what I'm saying is last October, I was a huge balance whiner about PvT, (less about the overpoweredness of Terran and more about the shitty design of Protoss), so I can relate to you guys and understand your frustration. But I think Idra put it best when summarizing some mainstream Terran thoughts: that because your race has so many options, when one gets nerfed/figured out, it seems like many of you only look in one other spot for an answer, or try to keep using that.same old strat without changing it. Trust me, you guys have the tools.
Until then, good luck in TvP, and although I'm only a Diamond Protoss, I'd be happy to chat with anyone about what Terran playstyles give me fits via PM.
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On May 08 2012 00:12 Sphen5117 wrote:
In response to the OP:
From a Protoss standpoint, could I not argue that it puts me in a spot where if the Terran does any sort of damage in the early-midgame with any of their numerous options, that I'm pretty much perpetually fucked and unable to get to any point of contention?
This is besides the fact that I simply disagree that Protoss have the advantage late game. Little has changed in terms of actual balance since this past October or so where Terran were roflstomping Protoss in every stage of the game, in every event. What changed was the way Protoss play. There are still top tier Terran who absolutely shit on Protoss, and it seems to me that other Terran players are simply refusing to use the methods they use. Far too often I see Terran refuse to get enough vikings.
If you watch someone like Puma (great TvPer) play, he often gets what looks like -too many- vikings. But the benefit is then the Colossi die nearly instantly in a fight, and we all know what happens to Gateway units against stimmed bio with medvacs, even with a numbers advantage (think of how much the Protoss has to use to stop drops for example)
I guess what I'm saying is last October, I was a huge balance whiner about PvT, (less about the overpoweredness of Terran and more about the shitty design of Protoss), so I can relate to you guys and understand your frustration. But I think Idra put it best when summarizing some mainstream Terran thoughts: that because your race has so many options, when one gets nerfed/figured out, it seems like many of you only look in one other spot for an answer, or try to keep using that.same old strat without changing it. Trust me, you guys have the tools.
Until then, good luck in TvP, and although I'm only a Diamond Protoss, I'd be happy to chat with anyone about what Terran playstyles give me fits via PM.
This post has no credibility just because you haven't even bothered to look at the patches that effected Protoss and Terran between October and the start of Season 2.
Also saying Terran players need to figure it out is trash, because the tip-top Korean Terrans are having an absurdly hard time against Protoss in the GSL, there is a clear imbalance.
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On May 08 2012 00:17 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:12 Sphen5117 wrote:
In response to the OP:
From a Protoss standpoint, could I not argue that it puts me in a spot where if the Terran does any sort of damage in the early-midgame with any of their numerous options, that I'm pretty much perpetually fucked and unable to get to any point of contention?
This is besides the fact that I simply disagree that Protoss have the advantage late game. Little has changed in terms of actual balance since this past October or so where Terran were roflstomping Protoss in every stage of the game, in every event. What changed was the way Protoss play. There are still top tier Terran who absolutely shit on Protoss, and it seems to me that other Terran players are simply refusing to use the methods they use. Far too often I see Terran refuse to get enough vikings.
If you watch someone like Puma (great TvPer) play, he often gets what looks like -too many- vikings. But the benefit is then the Colossi die nearly instantly in a fight, and we all know what happens to Gateway units against stimmed bio with medvacs, even with a numbers advantage (think of how much the Protoss has to use to stop drops for example)
I guess what I'm saying is last October, I was a huge balance whiner about PvT, (less about the overpoweredness of Terran and more about the shitty design of Protoss), so I can relate to you guys and understand your frustration. But I think Idra put it best when summarizing some mainstream Terran thoughts: that because your race has so many options, when one gets nerfed/figured out, it seems like many of you only look in one other spot for an answer, or try to keep using that.same old strat without changing it. Trust me, you guys have the tools.
Until then, good luck in TvP, and although I'm only a Diamond Protoss, I'd be happy to chat with anyone about what Terran playstyles give me fits via PM. This post has no credibility just because you haven't even bothered to look at the patches that effected Protoss and Terran between October and the start of Season 2. Also saying Terran players need to figure it out is trash, because the tip-top Korean Terrans are having an absurdly hard time against Protoss in the GSL, there is a clear imbalance.
How can you say I haven't looked at the patches? You're pulling that out of thin air. I understand the EMP radius nerf, but for my example, I'm referring to the Colossi vs Viking dynamic of the matchup.
And your last line of your post, I could literally swap the words Protoss and Terran and have said that myself back in October and it would have sounded just as fitting, would it have not? Constant TvT finals, Protoss of all kinds losing massively in GSL, especially against Terran. "there was a clear imbalance"
Your attempts to dismiss my points either make huuuuuge assumptions or else follow the same line of thought that the Protoss held long ago. You don't actually discuss anything.
I know how frustrating it can be to think you see a clear imbalance in something that isn't being addressed or fixed and it looks like Blizzard never will. I don't blame you for being passionate or somewhat harsh in your response, but you're honestly not actually going anywhere with your post.
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Day9 covered it perfectly last night. Save yourself the argument and just watch that daily.
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Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed
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On May 04 2012 13:48 Talack wrote:
I really really hate blizzards stance on this.
They are basically saying that they expect you to kill the protoss before late game.
I hate to break it to you blizzard devs, but terran cannot get the sort of advantage you think we need without killing the protoss. I have played (and watched in the GSL) TvP alot on the ladder, and I have crippled a protoss almost before. I've denied a third base for a good 10 minutes and come at them with 50+ food advantage and still been unable to finish them. They eventually do get enough of their t3 units that you cannot attack anymore without a full 200/200 army.
You cannot trade evenly with them after a certain point.
Maybe I'm exagerating but I feel that anyone who is happy with TvP comming down to a "kill them or cripple them mid-game because you are not able to later on" is INCREDIBLY bad design. Just absolutely horrible. We don't want to be doing all-ins. We don't want to be unable to reinforce and fight because we killed the wall of zealots/stalkers but all the archons or collosus are alive so that next round of warp ins kills us.
Protoss are doing very well vs us. In the early game, in the mid game and especially the late game. Please for the love of god just stop telling us to do hard-timings that are intended to kill the protoss. It's just not what the community wants and without the community you've got no game.
Stop being lazy and come up with REAL solutions besides telling us to all-in or get lucky ><
What do you propose ? Its not like they can just buff your units or nerf the toss units cause then it creates problems for all the Zergs. Nerf toss T3 and then broodlord infestor rolls their army/ Buff terran mech units and then zerg dies to earlier and earlier timings. You can't just focus on one match up cause then it hurts the others this is the problem with having 3 DISTINCT races.
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On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed
Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP
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While I'm a greedy macro random racer, I hate this idea of "starcraft should only allow hard macro late game strategies". I like to play my Bo3's with a random 1 base all-in.
I also support the idea of race-biased strengths as a match progresses. The races are different not because players have kinky fetishes for their appearance, it's the nature and playstyle of certain races. I don't mind the idea of Zergs and Terrans being squishy pieces of shit in the beginning of the game that try to survive the beginning. Or Protoss being scared to leave their base when attacked from all sides during mid game.
I change my late/mid/early game goals based on which race I get when I'm random.
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On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP
You act like Zerg and Protoss players are sitting there bashing their heads against their keyboards.
(okay, maybe Zerg players are  )
But the point is that at the pro level, TvP is a micro-intensive matchup for both players. Look at Parting play PvT. It's insane how much APM he has and how much finesse goes into controlling his Templar. Yeah, stutter stepping is an APM sink, but it's not difficult and it's not something you need to be overly creative with. I don't go "WOW" when I see a Terran stutter step well. I get impressed when I see a Terran land a perfect set of EMPs or execute a perfect flank or split beautifully.
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On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP
Dont think so ace....What is this god like micro u are talking about...200/200 tvp battles require about the same amount for both sides. Ghost and Templar postions and Viking flanks vs stalkers protection of collossi. Ur just just making excuses if anything mid game stutter step micro is more important for a Terran player anyway.
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Also, since far more games make it to the early/mid game than make it to the late game, they are admitting that the game is IMBA for terran.
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On May 08 2012 01:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP You act like Zerg and Protoss players are sitting there bashing their heads against their keyboards. (okay, maybe Zerg players are ) But the point is that at the pro level, TvP is a micro-intensive matchup for both players. Look at Parting play PvT. It's insane how much APM he has and how much finesse goes into controlling his Templar. Yeah, stutter stepping is an APM sink, but it's not difficult and it's not something you need to be overly creative with. I don't go "WOW" when I see a Terran stutter step well. I get impressed when I see a Terran land a perfect set of EMPs or execute a perfect flank or split beautifully.
Well, I meant it more like zergs and toss both got new styles that work very well and are pretty easy to execute. The 200/200 roach max in ZvP, or the double forge ups colossi style a la Creator are both very powerful and pretty simple to pull off. Sure, pros have great micro and can use these styles better than the average masters player, but that masters player can copy the build down and be in a great position. A masters terran on the other hand, can copy the 1 rax expo into 3 rax build order and go into bio play, but unless he has good micro he can't even come close to what he sees from the pros.
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On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed
I've said this earlier in the thread but I'll say it again. Blizzard seems to be okay with Terran having to capitalize in the mid-game. Terran must do some damage or lose as they push into late-game. Nothing new so far.
Okay, so Protoss has to be able to turtle succesfully on 3 bases or there is imbalance. Protoss needs to be able to get to its late-game, where it is stronger, or Protoss has a disadvantage (just going with Blizzard's logic here, ignoring the all-ins that Protoss has at its disposal). So any innovative build that allows Terran to win "slightly" too much, will be nerfed (stim nerf, immortal range buff, etc), simply because it does not allow a turtling Protoss to get to its late-game comp. And by turtling Protoss, I mean a skilled Protoss that puts up a skilled and superior defense. At the same time, Protoss has been encouraged to go from a 4gating race on the small maps, to a macro turtling race on the large maps. (warp-gate nerf, travel distance). It seems Blizzard wants Protoss to go in this direction.
So, I really don't mind there being some sort of power shift as tech gets built for each race. Hell, I don't mind Protoss having a slight advantage late-game -- as long as the pendalum of tech advantages swings back to a more central position late-late-game. However, due to seperate tech paths and HT, Terran has a lot of difficulty transitioning out of Bio. So when you say "come up with a new build", due to the poor state of the metagame (and possibly design, if we go by Blizzard's words), any new mid-game all-in that gets too strong against Protoss midgame will be nerfed. Protoss needs to get to its late-game. Really, I feel for both races here.
I didn't really get any responses last time I posted something similar to this so I would really like some feedback.
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On May 08 2012 01:09 IamPryda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP Dont think so ace....What is this god like micro u are talking about...200/200 tvp battles require about the same amount for both sides. Ghost and Templar postions and Viking flanks vs stalkers protection of collossi. Ur just just making excuses if anything mid game stutter step micro is more important for a Terran player anyway.
It really doesn't require more micro from the protoss. Idk how anyone can really think this. Most of protoss units are simple to micro. You amove zealots, colossi, archons, and then blink the stalkers and storm. Protoss units are beefier, so micro isn't AS important as terran micro.
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On May 08 2012 00:17 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:12 Sphen5117 wrote:
In response to the OP:
From a Protoss standpoint, could I not argue that it puts me in a spot where if the Terran does any sort of damage in the early-midgame with any of their numerous options, that I'm pretty much perpetually fucked and unable to get to any point of contention?
This is besides the fact that I simply disagree that Protoss have the advantage late game. Little has changed in terms of actual balance since this past October or so where Terran were roflstomping Protoss in every stage of the game, in every event. What changed was the way Protoss play. There are still top tier Terran who absolutely shit on Protoss, and it seems to me that other Terran players are simply refusing to use the methods they use. Far too often I see Terran refuse to get enough vikings.
If you watch someone like Puma (great TvPer) play, he often gets what looks like -too many- vikings. But the benefit is then the Colossi die nearly instantly in a fight, and we all know what happens to Gateway units against stimmed bio with medvacs, even with a numbers advantage (think of how much the Protoss has to use to stop drops for example)
I guess what I'm saying is last October, I was a huge balance whiner about PvT, (less about the overpoweredness of Terran and more about the shitty design of Protoss), so I can relate to you guys and understand your frustration. But I think Idra put it best when summarizing some mainstream Terran thoughts: that because your race has so many options, when one gets nerfed/figured out, it seems like many of you only look in one other spot for an answer, or try to keep using that.same old strat without changing it. Trust me, you guys have the tools.
Until then, good luck in TvP, and although I'm only a Diamond Protoss, I'd be happy to chat with anyone about what Terran playstyles give me fits via PM. This post has no credibility just because you haven't even bothered to look at the patches that effected Protoss and Terran between October and the start of Season 2. Also saying Terran players need to figure it out is trash, because the tip-top Korean Terrans are having an absurdly hard time against Protoss in the GSL, there is a clear imbalance.
clear unbalance? protoss has struggled for almost a year until recently coming up with new builds, trying many things to deal with the power house terrans and then the terrans struggle recently and its a clear imbalance? sound like a fan boy to me. Start working on your game
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On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP
You need good mechanics, situational awareness, and unit control in order to defend your third against the roach max in PvZ too, all the while the Zerg basically splits his army and a-moves into two locations, while injecting and hitting the R key back at home. Honestly, as a Protoss player, I sympathize with current Terran woes, since I know the pain of having to play in one specific way, or get smashed, very well. Still, TvP lategame is not the only situation in the game that is more forgiving on one race. The whole history of TvZ early game was Zerg getting abused with few ways of putting pressure back on the Terran. Somehow, that was completely acceptable for all you Terran heroes.
Don't make a mountain out of a molehill, is what I'm saying. The winrates both on ladder and TLPD are still within 5% of perfect balance. You really have no basis for the level of whine contained within this thread.
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On May 08 2012 01:11 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 01:01 Shiori wrote:On May 08 2012 00:56 IMoperator wrote:On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed Because with terran it isn't as easy as playing a new/different style or build, you have to have sick mechanics and micro to beat protoss lategame. Do all the different builds you want, but if you get into lategame you're gonna need great micro to win TvP You act like Zerg and Protoss players are sitting there bashing their heads against their keyboards. (okay, maybe Zerg players are ) But the point is that at the pro level, TvP is a micro-intensive matchup for both players. Look at Parting play PvT. It's insane how much APM he has and how much finesse goes into controlling his Templar. Yeah, stutter stepping is an APM sink, but it's not difficult and it's not something you need to be overly creative with. I don't go "WOW" when I see a Terran stutter step well. I get impressed when I see a Terran land a perfect set of EMPs or execute a perfect flank or split beautifully. Well, I meant it more like zergs and toss both got new styles that work very well and are pretty easy to execute. The 200/200 roach max in ZvP, or the double forge ups colossi style a la Creator are both very powerful and pretty simple to pull off. Sure, pros have great micro and can use these styles better than the average masters player, but that masters player can copy the build down and be in a great position. A masters terran on the other hand, can copy the 1 rax expo into 3 rax build order and go into bio play, but unless he has good micro he can't even come close to what he sees from the pros.
Utter ignorance, not to mention you contradict yourself in the space of a single paragraph. The roach max can be lost to a single misplaced ff yet no toss claims you require MC FFs to be able to play PvZ. No toss masters can come close to what he sees from code s toss' without superb micro. Why do you think parting is the only one to play the way he does?
When two code s players face off against each other, there is maximal micro on either side. MKP doesn't need to micro his MM the way he does if Parting isn't baby sitting his chargelots and sentries the way he is. The amount of micro you see is proportional to the amount of micro your opponent does. Does a masters player need to micro vs a platinum? Not at all, he can just macro him to death.
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On May 08 2012 01:12 slane04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed I've said this earlier in the thread but I'll say it again. Blizzard seems to be okay with Terran having to capitalize in the mid-game. Terran must do some damage or lose as they push into late-game. Nothing new so far. Okay, so Protoss has to be able to turtle succesfully on 3 bases or there is imbalance. Protoss needs to be able to get to its late-game, where it is stronger, or Protoss has a disadvantage (just going with Blizzard's logic here, ignoring the all-ins that Protoss has at its disposal). So any innovative build that allows Terran to win "slightly" too much, will be nerfed (stim nerf, immortal range buff, etc), simply because it does not allow a turtling Protoss to get to its late-game comp. And by turtling Protoss, I mean a skilled Protoss that puts up a skilled and superior defense. At the same time, Protoss has been encouraged to go from a 4gating race on the small maps, to a macro turtling race on the large maps. (warp-gate nerf, travel distance). It seems Blizzard wants Protoss to go in this direction. So, I really don't mind there being some sort of power shift as tech gets built for each race. Hell, I don't mind Protoss having a slight advantage late-game -- as long as the pendalum of tech advantages swings back to a more central position late-late-game. However, due to seperate tech paths and HT, Terran has a lot of difficulty transitioning out of Bio. So when you say "come up with a new build", due to the poor state of the metagame (and possibly design, if we go by Blizzard's words), any new mid-game all-in that gets too strong against Protoss midgame will be nerfed. Protoss needs to get to its late-game. Really, I feel for both races here. I didn't really get any responses last time I posted something similar to this so I would really like some feedback.
Terrans need to understand that new builds doesn't mean 'ZOMG Ravens and Mass sensor towers with auto repair mules: The solution to endgame TvZ?".
The compositions in PvZ are exactly the same as they have always been, there are just new builds to do it better. Roaches have been the backbone of ZvP since forever, the Stephano style is just a massive refinement.
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On May 08 2012 00:47 chestnutcc wrote:
Toss players make a thread about the 12 min roach max: 70+ pages of discussion, some whine and a whole host of proposed new builds.
Zerg players liberated from Idra, now under the tutelage of Stephano and DRG: Modern ZvP and ZvT styles evolved, many discussions and solutions for the archon toilet
Terran players make a thread about whatever: 70+ pages of cry me a river, not a single build discussed
Actually, it's 70+ pages filled with useless posts likes yours with a couple of terran players explaining the situation.
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EPT
