EPTProtoss able to double expand to your expansion and still hold off pushes with no problems at all. Where exactly is this early/midgame advantage? I really really really want to find it.
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 72
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
Protoss able to double expand to your expansion and still hold off pushes with no problems at all. Where exactly is this early/midgame advantage? I really really really want to find it. | ||
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hysterial
United States2044 Posts
On May 08 2012 00:40 power-overwhelming wrote: Day9 covered it perfectly last night. Save yourself the argument and just watch that daily. No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On May 08 2012 01:01 Shiori wrote: You act like Zerg and Protoss players are sitting there bashing their heads against their keyboards. (okay, maybe Zerg players are  )But the point is that at the pro level, TvP is a micro-intensive matchup for both players. Look at Parting play PvT. It's insane how much APM he has and how much finesse goes into controlling his Templar. Yeah, stutter stepping is an APM sink, but it's not difficult and it's not something you need to be overly creative with. I don't go "WOW" when I see a Terran stutter step well. I get impressed when I see a Terran land a perfect set of EMPs or execute a perfect flank or split beautifully. LOL if anyone is bashing their heads on keyboards it's you Protoss, not Zerg. Zerg takes far more APM than Toss to remain effective. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:18 hysterial wrote: No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. If you watch GSL, the topics Day9 covered are essentially the same thing all the Top Korean TvPer's have been doing. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:18 hysterial wrote: No high level player is going to look for Day9 for advice, his dailies are catered to lower level players. I'm mid/high masters and I found last nights daily helpful. I'm certainly not claiming i'm a high level player, but if someone at mid/high masters can find the daily informative then it should be the case that others around or below my level should too. In fact, I started playing exactly how Day9 was instructing yesterday a couple of weeks ago, (i.e. not trying to sledgehammer protoss off 2base between 10-16 minutes) and I've seen a huge improvement in my TvP. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:34 Absentia wrote: I'm mid/high masters and I found last nights daily helpful. I'm certainly not claiming i'm a high level player, but if someone at mid/high masters can find the daily informative then it should be the case that others around or below my level should too. In fact, I started playing exactly how Day9 was instructing yesterday a couple of weeks ago, (i.e. not trying to sledgehammer protoss off 2base between 10-16 minutes) and I've seen a huge improvement in my TvP. Good to hear. That is the worst time for the protoss, as we are attemting to get up AOEs and upgrades. No protoss is going to push out against an active terran at that point of the game. Delaying their 3rd base while you get up yours is a good way to get that lead you need against the protoss. Did you find it hard to trade efficently with the protoss mid game army? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46152 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:15 Talack wrote: GG blizz Protoss able to double expand to your expansion and still hold off pushes with no problems at all. Where exactly is this early/midgame advantage? I really really really want to find it. I'm going to assume that you don't actually mean that a Protoss can double expand to his Terran opponent's expansion, and instead guess that you believe that Protoss can fast expand twice without worry of early pressure against a Terran opponent. If this is really what you mean, I'm wondering if you can post a replay of this happening. I'm interested in seeing how this game went. I'd like to see some elaboration on this. Was there no early Terran pressure (or was it poorly executed), were the fast second and third nexuses really *that* fast, was it a high level game, etc. I'm surprised that a Protoss got away with such a thing, despite a Terran's effort to thwart it. Please show us some examples. Thanks  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm going to assume that you don't actually mean that a Protoss can double expand to his Terran opponent's expansion, and instead guess that you believe that Protoss can fast expand twice without worry of early pressure against a Terran opponent. If this is really what you mean, I'm wondering if you can post a replay of this happening. I'm interested in seeing how this game went. I'd like to see some elaboration on this. Was there no early Terran pressure (or was it poorly executed), were the fast second and third nexuses really *that* fast, was it a high level game, etc. I'm surprised that a Protoss got away with such a thing, despite a Terran's effort to thwart it. Please show us some examples. Thanks Yeah, I want to see this double expand/fast third build that works against any form of pressure. This thing sounds like magic to me. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I'm going to assume that you don't actually mean that a Protoss can double expand to his Terran opponent's expansion, and instead guess that you believe that Protoss can fast expand twice without worry of early pressure against a Terran opponent. If this is really what you mean, I'm wondering if you can post a replay of this happening. I'm interested in seeing how this game went. I'd like to see some elaboration on this. Was there no early Terran pressure (or was it poorly executed), were the fast second and third nexuses really *that* fast, was it a high level game, etc. I'm surprised that a Protoss got away with such a thing, despite a Terran's effort to thwart it. Please show us some examples. Thanks It's Parting's double expand into 8 Gates, pretty standard, and it takes advantage of Terran's lack of medivacs to get out a "macro" Nexus and a lot of CB. Pressure, pick off units, replace with your superior production while defending so you can tech. It's fairly dependent on how well you poke. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46152 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:49 Supah wrote: It's Parting's double expand into 8 Gates, pretty standard, and it takes advantage of Terran's lack of medivacs to get out a "macro" Nexus and a lot of CB. Pressure, pick off units, replace with your superior production while defending so you can tech. It's fairly dependent on how well you poke. If anyone could pull off something in PvT, it'd surely be Parting And as you said, it sounds dependent on how well you poke and what you can scout. I'd really like to see it be effective against ridiculously early and fast, or very hard, pressure, like a shitload of early rax all-in or a 1/1/1, rather than a standard (almost mild and expected, nowadays) 2rax expand from Terran. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
Explains.. a lot. Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
On May 08 2012 03:12 SupLilSon wrote: lol. Some Protoss players in here don't even know the recent standard builds. Explains.. a lot. Gonna check out that Day9, I'm happy to see him show Terran some love. i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
The fact is that on any map where T 1 base is not viable, P can outgreed T so hard, and end up ahead in econ, upgrades, and unit count (note: only behind in tech units). If there is in fact, however, a late game T army that is BETTER than the P's army, this could be OK and make sense. (For instance a mass ghost army can be 15k in value compared to 10k). If that is not true, then these sort of maps/the matchup has a serious issue. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
Every TvP/PvT thread is the same guys. All P's hate Terran, All Terrans hate P quite the vicious cycle. The MU is severely broken for many reasons and has forced many P/T players to quit/wait for HoTs IMO. No Strategy game should play on the "Ok your forces are only good til here, then you get fucked." This is bad for P and T. Ever wonder why T has won so many damn championships??? Maybe because the early game comes before the late game???? I dont know why that's so hard to figure out, It shouldnt be if you watch Pro TvP over the last year with millions of all ins. It is as just as fucked up for the Terran to deal with this though, because karma is quite the bitch once the game goes past 15 minutes. Knowing that every second the game goes longer the further behind you are. My question for this thread, and a question that needs to be asked in all TvP threads... Are you really enjoying this MU? Unless your pro(Hell, id 1-1-1 and do a million all other all-ins cough MVP cough if money is on the line.) But lets focus on the community here, Is playing versus the clock a viable game design option? Its terrible for both races to deal with. The real problem people have with this MU IMO is that its simply not enjoyable. Every P wants to go to late game to get his perfect army but is shattered by early base Terran all-ins. Every Terran that loves a solid end game is destroyed hopelessly. This is the way the MU is played and with the way the dynamics work in this MU espcially it is VERY rare to flucuate from this forced "flow of the game". Unfortunetaly P got the short end of the stick here as I said earlier, early game comes before late game. This MU utterly needs to be re designed in many ways. In conclusion, ive come to the realization, that this MU is the one MU that is simply unenjoyable and that is fueling alot of the imbalance and hate for the MU due to terrible terrible game design. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On May 07 2012 15:10 one-one-one wrote: That game says nothing. Creator made so many mistakes. He didn't even have detection during the batlle , lol. And also, can people stop derailing the thread with "OMG stop whining about balance QQ " posts. What we are discussing is the response from blizzard saying we have to do damage in the midgame. Is that good design? Does it have to be like this? Are there other lategame options for terran? If not , what needs a buff ? please! Agreed, plenty is being minimized or derailed off course It's clear that too many Posters on here clearly are not passed the gold league. This thread is just one strawman after another "Learn to EMP", "Make ghosts", "Make vikings". It's hilarious to see the lack of knowledge and simple solutions that are being offered to a complex problem. It goes to show the lack of knowledge that non-Terran players possess about the current state of Terran. I play Rank 1 Master Terran and Rank 2 Master Protoss (with very few games as Toss). I find it hard to even lose a PvT, and such is the sentiment of anyone who switches from Terran to Protoss. | ||
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spiralyguy
Canada10 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
On May 08 2012 02:42 Plansix wrote: Good to hear. That is the worst time for the protoss, as we are attemting to get up AOEs and upgrades. No protoss is going to push out against an active terran at that point of the game. Delaying their 3rd base while you get up yours is a good way to get that lead you need against the protoss. Did you find it hard to trade efficently with the protoss mid game army? Previously I found the matchup difficult because i'd be so dedicated to doing damage off 2 bases and just neglect getting a third until around the 14 minute mark. Obviously this slows down all kinds of things - notably ghosts and 2/2+ upgrades. Basically i'd be trying to drop constantly off two bases either doing no damage or just losing medivacs. The big things i've done recently to improve my TvP include: - Being extremely marine heavy for pretty much the entire game - Building a third before rax(4 and 5) - Much more scanning with OC energy past two base saturation - Throwing away around 20 SCVs once I have 4/5 orbitals and a maxed out army - Using only 2 control groups for my army instead of 3 The TvPs I do win are practically always in late game scenarios, (unless I hold off some kind of all in). Having the extra supply generated by 20 less scvs really does make a massive difference in late game engagements. Storm in a late game engagement is still difficult to deal with but I've definitely seen a marked improvement after implementing some of the aforementioned changes. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 08 2012 03:19 nOondn wrote: i don't even !(*!(@ about day 9 lol. He show the game where san or creator forgot to upgrade strom/zealot charge and attack puma before he get 3-3 lol. I think he said like two-four times during that replay that creator couldn't afford storm at any point, since he was under so much pressure. Storm is one of the most gas heavy upgrades in the game and does not pay off until well after it finishes. | ||
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