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On May 07 2012 20:35 oadas wrote:
It was funny seeing the outcry from the game between MVP and Naniwa, when obviously all MVP did was playing to the "strength" of the Terran race. People seem to be rather confused about this. If the Terran tries to end the game as fast possible, it's considered cheese/all in'ish and frowned upon. When it gets to the late game and an inevitable defeat for the Terran, it's bad play, because you're supposed to win before that. So what's the Terran supposed to do then?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter what we think or say, because in the end Blizzard has the final say on the matter.
If the win rations continue to swing in the favor of protoss for a long time, one can only hope Blizzard intervenes, like they've done before when Terran got nerfed several times.
It was 100% metagame and really cleverly played by him. With the current state of the lategame why would you not try this, especially against someone like naniwa :p I applaud him for doing so and forsee parting being allin:d in some way most of his PvTs the coming month :p
and thank the gods for it so that we dont have 2 pvp semis even though I rooted for naniwa
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the most annoying thing for me is that hitting EMP's vs hitting storms doesn't really have the same oomph. You need to kinda hit money EMP's or have amazing storm dodging micro. I can get hit by 1-2 storms and just die. Even if I dodge the other 8 or something.
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I find it kinda bitter sweet that it is in every terrans best interests to hope for parting to take the gsl code s.
Cause honestly if mvp cheeses his way into another gsl there is going to be the worst kind of terran nerfing known to man and the next gsl will look very similar.
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On May 07 2012 21:28 Chaggi wrote:
the most annoying thing for me is that hitting EMP's vs hitting storms doesn't really have the same oomph. You need to kinda hit money EMP's or have amazing storm dodging micro. I can get hit by 1-2 storms and just die. Even if I dodge the other 8 or something.
Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army.
Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces.
This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units.
Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead.
Too bad Blizzard doesn't want Thors to be a massable unit because of "the sheer size of the unit". Ultras anyone ?
On May 07 2012 21:30 Bananasword01 wrote:
I find it kinda bitter sweet that it is in every terrans best interests to hope for parting to take the gsl code s.
Cause honestly if mvp cheeses his way into another gsl there is going to be the worst kind of terran nerfing known to man and the next gsl will look very similar.
This.
The constant fiddling with the balance has made people expect quick fixes. Imo they should fix only the obviously broken stuff and let progamers overcome difficulties themselves. Then Sc2 can turn out like BW.
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On May 07 2012 20:40 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:35 oadas wrote:
It was funny seeing the outcry from the game between MVP and Naniwa, when obviously all MVP did was playing to the "strength" of the Terran race. People seem to be rather confused about this. If the Terran tries to end the game as fast possible, it's considered cheese/all in'ish and frowned upon. When it gets to the late game and an inevitable defeat for the Terran, it's bad play, because you're supposed to win before that. So what's the Terran supposed to do then?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter what we think or say, because in the end Blizzard has the final say on the matter.
If the win rations continue to swing in the favor of protoss for a long time, one can only hope Blizzard intervenes, like they've done before when Terran got nerfed several times. It was 100% metagame and really cleverly played by him. With the current state of the lategame why would you not try this, especially against someone like naniwa :p I applaud him for doing so and forsee parting being allin:d in some way most of his PvTs the coming month :p and thank the gods for it so that we dont have 2 pvp semis even though I rooted for naniwa
It's already at semi final stage so that would be impossible. For those whining about there being 3 protoss in the GSL semis, consider this: protoss haven't won in the GSL in a year. Would it really be such a terrible thing if a protoss won it? Will the sky really fall on your heads? How many international pro tournaments have protoss won recently? Can you name anyway?
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On May 07 2012 21:45 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:28 Chaggi wrote:
the most annoying thing for me is that hitting EMP's vs hitting storms doesn't really have the same oomph. You need to kinda hit money EMP's or have amazing storm dodging micro. I can get hit by 1-2 storms and just die. Even if I dodge the other 8 or something. Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army. Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces. This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units. Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead. Too bad Blizzard doesn't want Thors to be a massable unit because of "the sheer size of the unit". Ultras anyone ? Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:30 Bananasword01 wrote:
I find it kinda bitter sweet that it is in every terrans best interests to hope for parting to take the gsl code s.
Cause honestly if mvp cheeses his way into another gsl there is going to be the worst kind of terran nerfing known to man and the next gsl will look very similar. This. The constant fiddling with the balance has made people expect quick fixes. Imo they should fix only the obviously broken stuff and let progamers overcome difficulties themselves. Then Sc2 can turn out like BW.
Yes, but you have to remember that EMP's are instant, so you can spam them and they stack on archons and colossus, and storm dodging is basically keeping away from the HT's with your bio ball while the ghosts EMP and Snipe them. Once they're taken care of, you can stop kiting and focus on DPS.
Second paragraph and quote: Honestly I feel as if the majority of Terran players have stopped innovating in TvP. I see the same thing over and over again with no variation. These two things are:
An all-in play, possibly into mass marauder.
An FE into mass marauder.
The problem is that mass marauder is completely terrible against everything except stalkers and colossus, which Protoss are not making very many of anymore. They are not making stalker/colossus/sentry anymore. They are making zealot/archon/ht/colossus. And to counter that you need more ghosts for EMP, more marines for DPS, and more vikings and medivacs for nullifying colossus and healing your units during combat.
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Edit: Holy crap I thought I quoted a different post. Delete this post if possible. (probably not)
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On May 07 2012 21:45 one-one-one wrote:
Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army.
Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces.
This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units.
Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead.
I think it's funny that the THOR does no splash to ground, is very slow, BUT requires mech upgrades.
Meanwhile there is the collossus: splash, not very slow, requires..... the same upgrades as zealots and stalkers.
That's the reason why thors can't be used in tvp (and ofcourse there is feedback). Imagine that thors would benefit from bio upgrades. TvP lategame would become totally different.
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On May 07 2012 22:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:45 one-one-one wrote:
Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army.
Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces.
This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units.
Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead.
I think it's funny that the THOR does no splash to ground, is very slow, BUT requires mech upgrades. Meanwhile there is the collossus: splash, not very slow, requires..... the same upgrades as zealots and stalkers. That's the reason why thors can't be used in tvp (and ofcourse there is feedback). Imagine that thors would benefit from bio upgrades. TvP lategame would become totally different.
THors splash air, you can't have your cake and eat it.
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On May 07 2012 22:15 Bananasword01 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:11 Snowbear wrote:On May 07 2012 21:45 one-one-one wrote:
Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army.
Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces.
This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units.
Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead.
I think it's funny that the THOR does no splash to ground, is very slow, BUT requires mech upgrades. Meanwhile there is the collossus: splash, not very slow, requires..... the same upgrades as zealots and stalkers. That's the reason why thors can't be used in tvp (and ofcourse there is feedback). Imagine that thors would benefit from bio upgrades. TvP lategame would become totally different. THors splash air, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Yes, true, but we are talking about ground, and about the thor vs protoss. It's insane that such a good unit as the collossus can just benefit from the same upgrades as the other ground units.
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On May 07 2012 18:57 vthree wrote:
Haha, the Day 9 Daily was funny. They actually showed MKP getting owned by JYP out of all people. Actually, MKP did mess up by not killing the 3rd when he had a chance. But that map (Sanshorn Mist) is actually pretty good for the terrna mid game with easy access to drop the main as well as a hard to defend main so MKP actually did pretty good harass/pressure in midgame. Unfortunately, this map is not in the GSL map pool which is a bit protoss favor at the moment.
"What if the legend of the Fall gets a resurection trough the GSL map pool as intended" o0
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On May 07 2012 22:18 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 22:15 Bananasword01 wrote:On May 07 2012 22:11 Snowbear wrote:On May 07 2012 21:45 one-one-one wrote:
Well said. This is a very annoying thing. It would be OK if terran had some heavy duty units like the Thor in the army.
Then you could eat a few storms and with the remaining bio + thors you could clean up the warping in forces.
This would make the protoss think twice about where he warps in units.
Right now Thors are countered by feedback , lol. One feedback on a high energy thors + a few storms and the mighty thor is dead.
I think it's funny that the THOR does no splash to ground, is very slow, BUT requires mech upgrades. Meanwhile there is the collossus: splash, not very slow, requires..... the same upgrades as zealots and stalkers. That's the reason why thors can't be used in tvp (and ofcourse there is feedback). Imagine that thors would benefit from bio upgrades. TvP lategame would become totally different. THors splash air, you can't have your cake and eat it. Yes, true, but we are talking about ground, and about the thor vs protoss. It's insane that such a good unit as the collossus can just benefit from the same upgrades as the other ground units.
It is true that the colossus is strong in many areas that are unexpected when comparing it to other units. However, I would argue that it's weakness, being able to be hit by air units, is one of the worst in the entire game as well. Not only does this weakness affect the colossus, but it also affects every other protoss air unit, since terran opponents must make vikings to stop colossi. This means that phoenixes, voidrays, and carriers have little to no role in the matchup, since terrans will already be countering them by countering colossi. It also plays a part in why speed warp prisms are not used nearly as much as expected, since vikings are already being made in anticipation of colossi when the terran scans a robotics support bay. And even observers suffer, since a couple vikings will instantly take any down within scan range, even if, and especially if colossi haven't been built yet.
That is 5 other units that have their roles impeded upon just by the existence of the colossus. It is the sole reason why we see so little diversity in unit composition in PvT. No one likes it. Not terran, not zerg, not protoss. No one except Blizzard apparently.
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On May 07 2012 21:30 Bananasword01 wrote:
I find it kinda bitter sweet that it is in every terrans best interests to hope for parting to take the gsl code s.
Cause honestly if mvp cheeses his way into another gsl there is going to be the worst kind of terran nerfing known to man and the next gsl will look very similar.
True, a lot of people are under the impression Blizzard just wants Protoss to win another GSL to make their original WoL not look complete garbage in terms of balance, gameplay and variety.
Blizzard had a good formula going with BW, why did they have to fuck it up by adding units like colossus, marauder and roach?
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On May 07 2012 23:23 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 21:30 Bananasword01 wrote:
I find it kinda bitter sweet that it is in every terrans best interests to hope for parting to take the gsl code s.
Cause honestly if mvp cheeses his way into another gsl there is going to be the worst kind of terran nerfing known to man and the next gsl will look very similar. True, a lot of people are under the impression Blizzard just wants Protoss to win another GSL to make their original WoL not look complete garbage in terms of balance, gameplay and variety. Blizzard had a good formula going with BW, why did they have to fuck it up by adding units like colossus, marauder and roach?
i seconded this, they have absolutely ruined starcraft with those 3 units, they should only have removed the less useful units in BW (Firebat,Valkyrie,Scout,Dark Archon,Queen and Devourer)
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On May 07 2012 20:08 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 19:58 Thezzy wrote:
My only issue with TvP late game is how High Templar counter pretty much everything.
The two beefiest units that Terran has (and would thus be somewhat 'resistant' to carpet storms) both have energy and need a lot of energy before they can dump it, the Thor needing a massive 150 energy before it rid itself of it.
Yamato is really super late game and BCs are painfully slow.
Anything else you can just carpet storm, especially Bio.
If Blizzard could change it so Feedback does not damage mechanical units (still drains energy), it would make Air and Thor play a more interesting option. Uhh... There's a white shimmer behind you. I wonder wha--OMG ITS A GHOST!!! RUUUN!!!! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, Ghosts absolutely crap on HT's with proper micro. Clumps=EMP. A couple of them=Snipe. It's that simple, just make sure your bioball and vikings are close enough to chase off any chargelots, stalkers, and colossus.
There's also having a lot spread out. Can't emp effectively and can't snipe them fast enough. Simple micro beats ghosts, but protoss sill aren't doing it and just continue to complain.
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Thor energy is part of the biggest problem in PvT. Protoss will almost always have templar anyway for medivacs/storms, you can't just burn off the energy yourself to avoid the feedback problem, and the ability it is used for is too niche. (Colossus / Immortals). I would like to see thors lose the energy, and change the activated ability to a longish cooldown that causes the thors to channel an ability that does constant damage in an area at great range. Something like 15 dps to all units in the area of a force field. It would require a small setup time like siege tanks.
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On May 07 2012 20:40 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 20:35 oadas wrote:
It was funny seeing the outcry from the game between MVP and Naniwa, when obviously all MVP did was playing to the "strength" of the Terran race. People seem to be rather confused about this. If the Terran tries to end the game as fast possible, it's considered cheese/all in'ish and frowned upon. When it gets to the late game and an inevitable defeat for the Terran, it's bad play, because you're supposed to win before that. So what's the Terran supposed to do then?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter what we think or say, because in the end Blizzard has the final say on the matter.
If the win rations continue to swing in the favor of protoss for a long time, one can only hope Blizzard intervenes, like they've done before when Terran got nerfed several times. It was 100% metagame and really cleverly played by him. With the current state of the lategame why would you not try this, especially against someone like naniwa :p I applaud him for doing so and forsee parting being allin:d in some way most of his PvTs the coming month :p and thank the gods for it so that we dont have 2 pvp semis even though I rooted for naniwa
Naniwa was being greedy going Nexus first and got punished by MVP who gambled upon him being greedy. I don't like to watch 2-rax play or whatever not, but MVP did the right thing and executed it very well.
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On May 07 2012 23:49 kiklion wrote:
Thor energy is part of the biggest problem in PvT. Protoss will almost always have templar anyway for medivacs/storms, you can't just burn off the energy yourself to avoid the feedback problem, and the ability it is used for is too niche. (Colossus / Immortals). I would like to see thors lose the energy, and change the activated ability to a longish cooldown that causes the thors to channel an ability that does constant damage in an area at great range. Something like 15 dps to all units in the area of a force field. It would require a small setup time like siege tanks.
The last time I saw Thors being used, the Templars were used to storm their support units (Marine/SCV). In other words, the energy was not a problem.
... this was in the GSL which I atleast see as the most prestigious tournament.
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My basic interpretation for most of the terran in this thread;
WAH WAH WAH WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME A CERTAIN WAY TO WIN AGAINST A CERTAIN STYLE.
Well, fuck. I'm fairly sure starcraft has always been 19+ minute macro games with light harassment followed by a large engagement in the centre of the map, and any other game should never ever happen and we must ALWAYS ALWAYS GO LATE GAME AND 2 BASE ALL INS ARE THE DEVIL.
Stop whining and do what works, christ.
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On May 07 2012 23:54 Mattacate wrote:Stop whining and do what works, christ.
You do realize "doing what works" is another way of saying "start doing all-ins every game vs Toss".
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EPT
