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I think P is pretty strongly OP once they stabilize on 3 bases with mass warpgates and a completed tech tree.
The 200/200 front loading of their production is what makes it near impossible finish them off.
Terran has to queue units up after 200/200, wait 20-30 seconds for the units to pop, then wait another 35-50 seconds for the units to reach the other side of the map. In total this is 55 to 80 seconds of time that terran has to wait before his units will see the battlefield.
Protoss, on the other hand, will have a completely front-loaded production cycle. His warp gates allow him to instantly warp a round of units at the battle. 30 seconds later he can do it again. 30 seconds after that, he'll do it again... etc etc.
It turns out that after a 200/200 engagement, the protoss will always be 1-2 production cycles ahead of you.
The only way to finish off a protoss is to win a 200/200 battle in such a way that your remaining units are able to crush his remax. Your reinforcements simply do not get there in time. Couple this with the fact that 300 hp units that do splash can be warped in en masse... it's a brutal matchup to play for terran.
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On May 07 2012 16:03 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 13:57 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 12:55 corpuscle wrote:On May 07 2012 12:41 ZeroTalent wrote:On May 07 2012 11:44 Kharnage wrote:
actually what I usually see is terran have their ghosts out front trying to pick off HT's before an engagement. Usually they rely on cloak to keep the ghost safe once the EMP's are fired off. It is rare that I see ghosts being kept safe at the back, and never do I see terran picking up ghosts with a medivac to get the m out of the line of fire.
. But, I mean, really, you wish the terran player to pick up the ghosts? You might as well wish for a pony while you're at it Yeah, seriously? What's the logic here? "I'm worried about getting hit by feedback, so I'm gonna put my ghosts in a dropship that has energy and doesn't have cloak. Problem solved!" (1) 1:1 marine/marauder ratio is actually pretty bad in the lategame. The heart of the Protoss army is going to be Zealot/Archon, with enough stalkers to pick off vikings, and then some HT and perhaps Immortals thrown in. Marauders aren't cost or supply effective against most of those units. Just against stalkers and colossi. You're better off with a ratio somewhere between 2:1 and 4:1 marine/marauder.
(2) If he gets to your extra orbitals, you've already lost anyway. (the point about sudden SCV loss is real with templar + warp prism) 1) I went with 1:1 marine/marauder ratio just as a guess, but maybe it's more like 2:1-3:1. Even if you go 3:1 marine:marauder, it's a pretty weak bioball, you're gonna end up with a lot of fairly useless/vulnerable/expensive vikings/ghosts if you control properly. I'm more of the opinion that you need to control a smaller number of ghosts and vikings really well, while pulling the protoss out of position with drops and hit-squads since you have more bio/medivacs, rather than focusing on the "power" units. 2) Yeah, I agree, I just wanted to make sure people don't think that it's like you can just transition over to mules and not give a fuck. It makes your econ a lot more vulnerable; losing 20 SCV's when you only have 50 is a huge difference from losing 20 when you have 70 in terms of how much it affects your income. Useless, vulnerable, and expensive? Only one of these is true. Ghosts are nowhere near useless, as they do 22 damage with a 1.5 attack speed against Zealots, plus they can regenerate energy to EMP in future battles, believe it or not. They may be vulnerable IF you leave them in front soaking Colossus shots while there is an observer on the field or they are not cloaked. Vikings aren't useless, but landing them right on top of the Protoss army is a terrible idea in any circumstance unless you're really, really, really far ahead. A better idea is to land them behind your bio so that they do some extra DPS against the Zealots and Archons, but you can still lift them in case he gets more Colossus. If you have 6+ Vikings left over after a battle, you can keep them and he can either go Colossus and play defensively, or not get colossus and have a highly reduced army capability, since Marine/Ghost/Medivac shits on pure gateway. I really love how you harp on the attack dmg, while you ignored the post that shows that a simple chargelot without shields has the same hp and deals more dps to a ghost than the ghost deals to the chargelot.
Hey, hey... slow down there champ. Everyone knows that gateway units suck and are cost inefficient. Don't bring up this math nonsense as if that proves anything!
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Russian Federation899 Posts
On May 07 2012 18:20 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:10 darkness wrote:On May 07 2012 15:05 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote:From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min. Edit: Also one more thing I was thinking about recently. I'm not sure if I'm right, but I think Terran's flaw is the marine has too low hp for late game. I mean units with late game upgrades benefit better because they last longer, but the marine dies too quickly at that point. I think there should be a good DPS bio unit that is unlocked as 2.5/3 tier or something to replace marines. Feel free to discuss.  Or mech  Unfortunately every Protoss unit is designed to hard-counter it. Well, I don't think mech is the answer because terrans get engineering bay upgrades which don't affect mech. This is also another advantage of protoss that every ground unit benefits from forge upgrades. Be it colossus, immortal or just gateway units. I don't think there is a way for mech to catch up with protoss upgrades if you stick with bio up to mid game. Sorry for the BW reference, but 90% of BW TvZ is +1 5 rax where you go mass bio with +1 ups with 5 rax off 2 bases, get 3rd base with mine research, then lift off all your raxes and transition to pure mech, and start getting mech upgrades, some even go triple armory and get air-attack upgrades for valkyries. It shouldn't matter if the upgrades are separate.
Too bad u won't be able to do this against toss in sc2 ;/
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On May 07 2012 18:10 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 18:07 Severedevil wrote:On May 07 2012 17:30 50bani wrote:On May 07 2012 16:56 Crushgroove wrote:
The amount of stupidity and mis-interpretation in this thread is staggering.
T has an advantage early and mid-game so lets whine about their late game difficulties if the protoss is un-abused for the whole early-mid game?
I don't even....
That's THE WHOLE POINT of starcraft... press advantages when you can, and time attacks to your advantage. In a vacuum I agree with you but the maps have been designed with different goals in mind, so the "advantage" is not there anymore. People wanted macro maps to play on so they got maps where it is easy to defend, so the Stim+Medivac timing is not so effective anymore. Then find a different timing. I think mr. Day9 has analyzed and understood this matchup a bit better than alot of us. In his daily #432 he mentions, that a protoss should never attack between 12-16 minutes. He will just die. Unless the P is doing some weird all-in the T can easilly hold it, while dropping the P. Why wouldn't a T exploid this to expand while putting on pressure?
Yeah a weird allin like the Squirtle 2-base colossus push which almost no Terran has beaten despite knowing that it's coming
lol
That daily was not relevant to this discussion, I love Day9 but he was basically explaining in detail how to avoid the lategame scenarios that Terrans are having trouble with.
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So basically, terran plays versus protoss in SC2 as protoss plays versus terran in BW, or am I missing something?
Could it be that many terran players are just upset that the roles have been reversed.?
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On May 07 2012 18:45 KungKras wrote:
So basically, terran plays versus protoss in SC2 as protoss plays versus terran in BW, or am I missing something?
Could it be that many terran players are just upset that the roles have been reversed.?
u got the point , i have stopped playing because of this, they ruined terran imho, they were the positional race with spider mine and tank, liath, plus vessel, and now they are only Protoss 2.0
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I don't know, something just seems off to me.
As a Masters Terran, I absolutely wreck diamond zerg and terrans, but I struggle vs even plat toss players TT
It seems it is way harder to capitalize on a lead vs toss than t or z because their units are really good and collosi + ht can shred through so much supply if you don't micro perfectly.
while if toss or zerg has a big lead they can, for the most part, a move to capitilize on it.
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Haha, the Day 9 Daily was funny. They actually showed MKP getting owned by JYP out of all people. Actually, MKP did mess up by not killing the 3rd when he had a chance. But that map (Sanshorn Mist) is actually pretty good for the terrna mid game with easy access to drop the main as well as a hard to defend main so MKP actually did pretty good harass/pressure in midgame. Unfortunately, this map is not in the GSL map pool which is a bit protoss favor at the moment.
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On May 07 2012 18:36 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 16:03 Thrombozyt wrote:
I really love how you harp on the attack dmg, while you ignored the post that shows that a simple chargelot without shields has the same hp and deals more dps to a ghost than the ghost deals to the chargelot. Hey, hey... slow down there champ. Everyone knows that gateway units suck and are cost inefficient. Don't bring up this math nonsense as if that proves anything!
Soo.. wait... people are upset that a pure melee unit has the same amount of hp and has an auto attack with higher dps than the auto attack of a caster unit?
Totally imba. -_-
Anyway, just go give my thoughts on this. Some important overall tactical points to keep in mind.
1) It's a widely held belief that attacking is easier than defending. To defend you must prepare for every possibility at every point, to attack you only need to pick what you're going to attack with and where, and if you're attack multiple places at once give some thought to the best places to split into and why.
2) This whole thing about terran having the advantage midgame means that terran has 'priority', or the game is in their hands to start. As an analogy think of it like playing white in chess, you are in the position of power and all you have to do is retain and build that position of power, whereas the other player has to break through your position of power to seize the game.
3) Nothing about "Terran has extremely effective offensive options" means that blizzard is saying terrans should just all-in all the time. Staying well short of an all-in the terran just has extremely good units to be aggressive earlier in the game, aggressive does NOT equal "attack to kill" or "throw all your units at them". Utilizing that aggressiveness could literally be just having units near the toss base and slowing down their expansion, whether it's their first expansion or their third base or both, while the terran takes their expands earlier and gives themselves an advantage going later into the game potentially without even attacking anything.
4) Please try to differentiate between your personal desires for the game and actual problems with the game itself. Just because you would enjoy watching terrans turtle on 3 bases to 200/200 and roflstomp a toss army does not mean that it would be better for the game or that everyone would want to see that. Even as a protoss I personally think that watching PvTs where the T gets aggressive and creative and makes the game constantly dynamic and interesting and actionpacked because they're doing everything they can to exploit the point their race is the strongest to be the most fun to watch and to play, even if I cringe in pain every time I see upgrades get sniped or tech buildings go down in the toss base. This is not to say that there are no problems in the matchup or things like that, just the overwhelming majority of comments have put a personal preference forward as a factual problem with the game. Again for an analogy it would be like saying going out of bounds in american football is broken because it takes away from the tackling that everyone loves and stops the clock making it take longer for the next play to happen.
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On May 07 2012 18:45 KungKras wrote:
So basically, terran plays versus protoss in SC2 as protoss plays versus terran in BW, or am I missing something?
Could it be that many terran players are just upset that the roles have been reversed.?
In BW terran had a hard time stopping protoss from expanding all over the map, this gave both race sort of a "clock" to take the game.
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My only issue with TvP late game is how High Templar counter pretty much everything.
The two beefiest units that Terran has (and would thus be somewhat 'resistant' to carpet storms) both have energy and need a lot of energy before they can dump it, the Thor needing a massive 150 energy before it rid itself of it.
Yamato is really super late game and BCs are painfully slow.
Anything else you can just carpet storm, especially Bio.
If Blizzard could change it so Feedback does not damage mechanical units (still drains energy), it would make Air and Thor play a more interesting option.
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On May 07 2012 16:03 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 13:57 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 12:55 corpuscle wrote:On May 07 2012 12:41 ZeroTalent wrote:On May 07 2012 11:44 Kharnage wrote:
actually what I usually see is terran have their ghosts out front trying to pick off HT's before an engagement. Usually they rely on cloak to keep the ghost safe once the EMP's are fired off. It is rare that I see ghosts being kept safe at the back, and never do I see terran picking up ghosts with a medivac to get the m out of the line of fire.
. But, I mean, really, you wish the terran player to pick up the ghosts? You might as well wish for a pony while you're at it Yeah, seriously? What's the logic here? "I'm worried about getting hit by feedback, so I'm gonna put my ghosts in a dropship that has energy and doesn't have cloak. Problem solved!" (1) 1:1 marine/marauder ratio is actually pretty bad in the lategame. The heart of the Protoss army is going to be Zealot/Archon, with enough stalkers to pick off vikings, and then some HT and perhaps Immortals thrown in. Marauders aren't cost or supply effective against most of those units. Just against stalkers and colossi. You're better off with a ratio somewhere between 2:1 and 4:1 marine/marauder.
(2) If he gets to your extra orbitals, you've already lost anyway. (the point about sudden SCV loss is real with templar + warp prism) 1) I went with 1:1 marine/marauder ratio just as a guess, but maybe it's more like 2:1-3:1. Even if you go 3:1 marine:marauder, it's a pretty weak bioball, you're gonna end up with a lot of fairly useless/vulnerable/expensive vikings/ghosts if you control properly. I'm more of the opinion that you need to control a smaller number of ghosts and vikings really well, while pulling the protoss out of position with drops and hit-squads since you have more bio/medivacs, rather than focusing on the "power" units. 2) Yeah, I agree, I just wanted to make sure people don't think that it's like you can just transition over to mules and not give a fuck. It makes your econ a lot more vulnerable; losing 20 SCV's when you only have 50 is a huge difference from losing 20 when you have 70 in terms of how much it affects your income. Useless, vulnerable, and expensive? Only one of these is true. Ghosts are nowhere near useless, as they do 22 damage with a 1.5 attack speed against Zealots, plus they can regenerate energy to EMP in future battles, believe it or not. They may be vulnerable IF you leave them in front soaking Colossus shots while there is an observer on the field or they are not cloaked. Vikings aren't useless, but landing them right on top of the Protoss army is a terrible idea in any circumstance unless you're really, really, really far ahead. A better idea is to land them behind your bio so that they do some extra DPS against the Zealots and Archons, but you can still lift them in case he gets more Colossus. If you have 6+ Vikings left over after a battle, you can keep them and he can either go Colossus and play defensively, or not get colossus and have a highly reduced army capability, since Marine/Ghost/Medivac shits on pure gateway. I really love how you harp on the attack dmg, while you ignored the post that shows that a simple chargelot without shields has the same hp and deals more dps to a ghost than the ghost deals to the chargelot.
Not all the chargelots will be attacking at once, and you will have marine/marauder backup as well. My point is that Ghosts are not terrible combat units against chargelots, and when you combine that with carpet EMP's and the Marine DPS they melt away extremely quickly. Lastly, you forget that the Medivac heals 9HP/s, which makes the ghost live basically forever.
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On May 07 2012 19:58 Thezzy wrote:
My only issue with TvP late game is how High Templar counter pretty much everything.
The two beefiest units that Terran has (and would thus be somewhat 'resistant' to carpet storms) both have energy and need a lot of energy before they can dump it, the Thor needing a massive 150 energy before it rid itself of it.
Yamato is really super late game and BCs are painfully slow.
Anything else you can just carpet storm, especially Bio.
If Blizzard could change it so Feedback does not damage mechanical units (still drains energy), it would make Air and Thor play a more interesting option.
Uhh... There's a white shimmer behind you. I wonder wha--OMG ITS A GHOST!!! RUUUN!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, Ghosts absolutely crap on HT's with proper micro. Clumps=EMP. A couple of them=Snipe. It's that simple, just make sure your bioball and vikings are close enough to chase off any chargelots, stalkers, and colossus.
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i love how every terran cries about protoss being stronger than them 30minutes into a game, but no protoss cry about terran being stronger 10minutes into the game.
blizzard is bang on the money when they insinuate that because it is NOT a mirror matchup, there will always be inherent strengths and weaknesses. a good starcraft player will not always play a macro game, but will always play to their races strengths in such a way as to ensure the highest probability of winning the game. its a strategy game - if you dont like it, dont play it.
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On May 07 2012 20:11 tsango wrote:
i love how every terran cries about protoss being stronger than them 30minutes into a game, but no protoss cry about terran being stronger 10minutes into the game.
This is a myth. Ever played against the 3 nexus 8 gate? Or the 2 base collossus bust? Or a zealot archon push?
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On May 07 2012 20:11 tsango wrote:
i love how every terran cries about protoss being stronger than them 30minutes into a game, but no protoss cry about terran being stronger 10minutes into the game.
blizzard is bang on the money when they insinuate that because it is NOT a mirror matchup, there will always be inherent strengths and weaknesses. a good starcraft player will not always play a macro game, but will always play to their races strengths in such a way as to ensure the highest probability of winning the game. its a strategy game - if you dont like it, dont play it.
toss did cry about 1-1-1 for month's, i dont know what your talking about.
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On May 07 2012 20:11 tsango wrote:
i love how every terran cries about protoss being stronger than them 30minutes into a game, but no protoss cry about terran being stronger 10minutes into the game.
blizzard is bang on the money when they insinuate that because it is NOT a mirror matchup, there will always be inherent strengths and weaknesses. a good starcraft player will not always play a macro game, but will always play to their races strengths in such a way as to ensure the highest probability of winning the game. its a strategy game - if you dont like it, dont play it.
Ehrm, every race has complained about every scenario so it has been done, trust me :p. The problem isnt that the MU is unwinnable, its that its more or less unwinnable after a certain point without far superior control, and I mean far superior control from the terran. I accept that there are points in time, or points in tech rather, that gives advantages in any MU but all those points should have a solid counter to make the game keep cycling through counters. There should never be an endgame where no true counter exists. And thats the feeling you get right now from the terran PoV. Given that I dont play superhigh masters but as a random when I go to lategame PvT I almost feel dirty how little I need to focus on control compared to when I play TvP.
Again, im only master league material with zerg anyways so my ingame knowledge doesnt really matter as much I guess but from a spectator of more or less every GSL/DH/MLG game ever played and a pretty decent terran/toss This is the feeling I get. Once in the lategame its not balanced, not even close tbh and even though the MU in itself might be balanced W/L wise I personally would prefer to see a more even game throughout where the strongpoints are more refined and counterable.
I urge all protoss that claim its not imbalanced or atleast easier lategame for p to go practice some TvP engagements with MMMVG against ZSSCT. Its a pretty huge difference. A matchup certinly can be balanced in W/L without being well balanced anyways. If a 6pool was crazy hard to stop but the zerg no 6pooling more or less would autolose against everything that comes after it would still be quite off even if the ratios were 5050. The principle is pretty much the same although its in no way that extreme =)
But, WoL isnt blizzards endgame at all. HotS might give terrans a decent soaker for the mecharmy in the warhound. And even before that we know the metagame can switch things around alot. I just hope that we eventually see 2endgame armies against eachother not being more or less certain who will win every single game
But bleh, every toss will just answer that the terran need to use his superior midgame to get ahead towards lategame. But thats not the point at all. Then nerf the terrans midgame and fix lategame =) atleast try. MUs with periods of huge imbalance are bad, they just are nomatter if they are equally many.
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It was funny seeing the outcry from the game between MVP and Naniwa, when obviously all MVP did was playing to the "strength" of the Terran race. People seem to be rather confused about this. If the Terran tries to end the game as fast possible, it's considered cheese/all in'ish and frowned upon. When it gets to the late game and an inevitable defeat for the Terran, it's bad play, because you're supposed to win before that. So what's the Terran supposed to do then?
Anyway, it doesn't really matter what we think or say, because in the end Blizzard has the final say on the matter.
If the win rations continue to swing in the favor of protoss for a long time, one can only hope Blizzard intervenes, like they've done before when Terran got nerfed several times.
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On May 07 2012 20:08 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 19:58 Thezzy wrote:
My only issue with TvP late game is how High Templar counter pretty much everything.
The two beefiest units that Terran has (and would thus be somewhat 'resistant' to carpet storms) both have energy and need a lot of energy before they can dump it, the Thor needing a massive 150 energy before it rid itself of it.
Yamato is really super late game and BCs are painfully slow.
Anything else you can just carpet storm, especially Bio.
If Blizzard could change it so Feedback does not damage mechanical units (still drains energy), it would make Air and Thor play a more interesting option. Uhh... There's a white shimmer behind you. I wonder wha--OMG ITS A GHOST!!! RUUUN!!!! + Show Spoiler +In all seriousness, Ghosts absolutely crap on HT's with proper micro. Clumps=EMP. A couple of them=Snipe. It's that simple, just make sure your bioball and vikings are close enough to chase off any chargelots, stalkers, and colossus.
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well, the same goes both ways doesnt it? HTs kinda doesnt care about ghosts if you keep them out of sniperange and decently spread. The issue I see mostly is that even if you dodge the storms perfectly you have most likely stimmed your entire army for no damage to anything but energy so you cant really stim again and re-engage unless you have a shitload of medivacs and even then more storms are probably ready while waiting for the healz . I think lategame could be alot better if medivacs healed while moving similar to the phoenix moving shot. specifically against storm/chargelot. Although that would probably completly screw over the toss in other parts of the game so dont do that blizzard :p never ending stimkiting ftw
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