On May 07 2012 13:35 malaan wrote: so what do you protoss players suggest us, Terran players, do when you late-game tech switch into a 50+ supply army that we don't have the correct comp for? I would love to know, because if we don't have any vikings left and you make even one round of colossi it's GG, or if you mass warp in HT's then morph to archons after a big engagement where we used up all of our EMP energy.
You have it so easy, and If you can't see if I think you need to watch some reaplays and look how much more terran is doing than you during battles.
Marines and Ghosts are useful regardless of the composition the Protoss is going for. The supposed 'counter', mass Colossus, takes a very long time to build up, and is picked apart by 14+ Vikings, which you can easily have if you produce them off of 2 reactor ports after scouting his multiple robo's producing by using a scan or two. You can also use scans to see his army composition, believe it or not.
As far as I can tell, there are three ways for Terran to handle tvp.
The current most used method is a variance of what the daily explained: Get a lead and then win, whether that be getting a lead and then pushing at 200 or whenever and you've outpaced the protoss, or get a lead, keep more bases, and then suffocate them. Both involve getting a lead in the mid-game and abusing it.
The second is just to have really good control. You see this more recently with terran going straight MMM with no ghosts or vikings, or a few ghosts in the late late game, and just making huge arcs, and being really aggressive with tiny numbers of units to stim forward and smash templar, as well as baiting storms and kiting and all that fun stuff that really just underlines "If I have the better micro and am aggressive enough with it, I can win because my units will be more cost effective"
The third, that people just frankly don't use, is to have a good amount of control, and force positioning. If you can have your ghosts in front cloaked and pick off observers and have your vikings safe but still ready for colossi and the right count so you dont punish your ground army and your medivacs safe but still useful and spread with your mauraders in the front and your marines in the back and you can control that well AND make the protoss attack head into it...they shouldn't beat you. People don't do it because it's fucking hard to make a protoss say "you're going to attack here into my army at the angle I want" and because it involves a really good amount of fast control to snipe drop emps Shift attack colossi and stim groups of marines and spread and kite if needed at the drop of a hat.
I expect that as terran get better at all three we're going to see more problems where the terran mid-game is just too strong, or where protoss have to keep developing. More likely, we'll see a terran nerf in the midgame (something nice and random like medivac timing) AND protoss will start developing, just as it's happened at every other point in the protoss matchups (4 gate ----> 2 base all ins ----> lategame ------> ? (? = more aggression in the midgame and/or different openings and/or faster _____ tech) (simplified list)). I hope that as both develop nothing will be nerfed because some people just can't figure it out or do what they need to. I understand the game wants to be balanced at every level of play in every aspect without each race being a mirror, but, frankly...I think that's a naive idea. Right now terran need to be aggressive in the early and mid-game. I'm okay with that.
On May 07 2012 12:07 ZeroTalent wrote: I feel like this discussion might be more useful if people took a look at the amount of life and DPS a 3/3/1 Protoss lategame army has (let's say 3 Colossi, 4 Archons, 3 HTs, 8 stalkers, and whatever is left in supply Zealots) versus.
The last time I did this, if you give both armies equal supply, after stim the Terran army had about 800 DPS and 6000 HP, while the Protoss Army had 700 DPS and 8500-9000 HP, without considering splash damage on either side. And the Protoss Army has more splash available than Terran. So for Terran to win you need
Cloaked ghosts that land money EMPs on power units and stay alive enough to hit the zealots (where as your chances are ruined if he lands one or two good storms, you've got to get great value out of most of your EMPs)
Positioning that keeps their power units out of the fight (making Zealots walk up and down ramps or around gaps, letting the vikings get free shots at the colossi as they try to walk into range of the bio, etc.)
A different army with higher DPS ... you'd need Reapers, mech units and/or HSM to get it; BCs and Banshees are no help
A different army with more hitpoints
Bunkers or PFs (I think this is an underexplored response to Turtle Toss ... Turtle harder and try splitting the map in your favor putting tons of defensive structures in the middle of it. I'm bad but maybe it's worth a try lol.)
A bigger army by suiciding SCVs and relying on mules.
Something else that no one's thought of yet
In your second paragraph and first point you fail to mention Medivac healing, as well as ghost EMP's on the Protoss army, plus the fact that Vikings and kiting shut-down Colossus.
On May 07 2012 14:00 Angel_ wrote: As far as I can tell, there are three ways for Terran to handle tvp.
The current most used method is a variance of what the daily explained: Get a lead and then win, whether that be getting a lead and then pushing at 200 or whenever and you've outpaced the protoss, or get a lead, keep more bases, and then suffocate them. Both involve getting a lead in the mid-game and abusing it.
The second is just to have really good control. You see this more recently with terran going straight MMM with no ghosts or vikings, or a few ghosts in the late late game, and just making huge arcs, and being really aggressive with tiny numbers of units to stim forward and smash templar, as well as baiting storms and kiting and all that fun stuff that really just underlines "If I have the better micro and am aggressive enough with it, I can win because my units will be more cost effective"
The third, that people just frankly don't use, is to have a good amount of control, and force positioning. If you can have your ghosts in front cloaked and pick off observers and have your vikings safe but still ready for colossi and the right count so you dont punish your ground army and your medivacs safe but still useful and spread with your mauraders in the front and your marines in the back and you can control that well AND make the protoss attack head into it...they shouldn't beat you. People don't do it because it's fucking hard to make a protoss say "you're going to attack here into my army at the angle I want" and because it involves a really good amount of fast control to snipe drop emps Shift attack colossi and stim groups of marines and spread and kite if needed at the drop of a hat.
I expect that as terran get better at all three we're going to see more problems where the terran mid-game is just too strong, or where protoss have to keep developing. More likely, we'll see a terran nerf in the midgame (something nice and random like medivac timing) AND protoss will start developing, just as it's happened at every other point in the protoss matchups (4 gate ----> 2 base all ins ----> lategame ------> ? (? = more aggression in the midgame and/or different openings and/or faster _____ tech) (simplified list)). I hope that as both develop nothing will be nerfed because some people just can't figure it out or do what they need to. I understand the game wants to be balanced at every level of play in every aspect without each race being a mirror, but, frankly...I think that's a naive idea. Right now terran need to be aggressive in the early and mid-game. I'm okay with that.
There is a fourth option that people overlook and say "oh well getting that many ghosts is suicide because your army has no DPS" about, when really that's not the case at all. It's basically getting 15+ ghosts as I've said multiple times, and getting 14+ Vikings to take out all the Colossus really quickly. The remaining MMMG army will crap on the remaining Zealot/Stalker army that has no shields.
On May 07 2012 14:00 Angel_ wrote: As far as I can tell, there are three ways for Terran to handle tvp.
The current most used method is a variance of what the daily explained: Get a lead and then win, whether that be getting a lead and then pushing at 200 or whenever and you've outpaced the protoss, or get a lead, keep more bases, and then suffocate them. Both involve getting a lead in the mid-game and abusing it.
The second is just to have really good control. You see this more recently with terran going straight MMM with no ghosts or vikings, or a few ghosts in the late late game, and just making huge arcs, and being really aggressive with tiny numbers of units to stim forward and smash templar, as well as baiting storms and kiting and all that fun stuff that really just underlines "If I have the better micro and am aggressive enough with it, I can win because my units will be more cost effective"
The third, that people just frankly don't use, is to have a good amount of control, and force positioning. If you can have your ghosts in front cloaked and pick off observers and have your vikings safe but still ready for colossi and the right count so you dont punish your ground army and your medivacs safe but still useful and spread with your mauraders in the front and your marines in the back and you can control that well AND make the protoss attack head into it...they shouldn't beat you. People don't do it because it's fucking hard to make a protoss say "you're going to attack here into my army at the angle I want" and because it involves a really good amount of fast control to snipe drop emps Shift attack colossi and stim groups of marines and spread and kite if needed at the drop of a hat.
I expect that as terran get better at all three we're going to see more problems where the terran mid-game is just too strong, or where protoss have to keep developing. More likely, we'll see a terran nerf in the midgame (something nice and random like medivac timing) AND protoss will start developing, just as it's happened at every other point in the protoss matchups (4 gate ----> 2 base all ins ----> lategame ------> ? (? = more aggression in the midgame and/or different openings and/or faster _____ tech) (simplified list)). I hope that as both develop nothing will be nerfed because some people just can't figure it out or do what they need to. I understand the game wants to be balanced at every level of play in every aspect without each race being a mirror, but, frankly...I think that's a naive idea. Right now terran need to be aggressive in the early and mid-game. I'm okay with that.
There is a fourth option that people overlook and say "oh well getting that many ghosts is suicide because your army has no DPS" about, when really that's not the case at all. It's basically getting 15+ ghosts as I've said multiple times, and getting 14+ Vikings to take out all the Colossus really quickly. The remaining MMMG army will crap on the remaining Zealot/Stalker army that has no shields.
eh. That's sort of covered in what I said as far as the last one goes, because it assumes you made the composition correctly to counter what they had.
That would be two ghosts for every Archon, and one ghost for every HT. This is a bad way to go though, and you really want good EMP's on his main army to make up for the fact that he's absolutely going to get off at least one good storm and a few colossus shots no matter what. And to do that, you need more ghosts.
On May 07 2012 14:13 Angel_ wrote: edited because i can't explain my comment how i want. brain not work.
On May 07 2012 12:03 lawlohwhat wrote: This daily is silly.
The reason Puma won that engagement in the middle was because protoss decided to engage with his zealots behind his entire army and went up against a planetary fortress. Even then it was an even trade. Not to mention the complete lack of storms and relatively low archon count.
Yeah Creator engaged:
1) With Zealots in the back of his army 2) Without charge 3) At a PF 4) Without Storm
And even after this trade, IT WAS CLOSE TO EVEN. Then Protoss engages Terran's army a 2nd time and the Supplies were EQUAL. Just another example of how badly Protoss can play and still win a game. Note that Puma had also killed 18 probes. But that didn't stop 3 base Protoss
On May 07 2012 12:03 lawlohwhat wrote: This daily is silly.
The reason Puma won that engagement in the middle was because protoss decided to engage with his zealots behind his entire army and went up against a planetary fortress. Even then it was an even trade. Not to mention the complete lack of storms and relatively low archon count.
Yeah Creator engaged:
1) With Zealots in the back of his army 2) Without charge 3) At a PF 4) Without Storm
And even after this trade, IT WAS CLOSE TO EVEN. Then Protoss engages Terran's army a 2nd time and the Supplies were EQUAL. Just another example of how badly Protoss can play and still win a game. Note that Puma had also killed 18 probes. But that didn't stop 3 base Protoss
Note that the Terran had mainly Marauders and extremely few Marines and no ghosts, which basically evened it out. Otherwise without the mistakes that Creator made he would have crushed, and without the mistakes PuMa made it would have been in PuMa's favor at best, and even at worst.
From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
Edit: Also one more thing I was thinking about recently. I'm not sure if I'm right, but I think Terran's flaw is the marine has too low hp for late game. I mean units with late game upgrades benefit better because they last longer, but the marine dies too quickly at that point.
I think there should be a good DPS bio unit that is unlocked as 2.5/3 tier or something to replace marines. Feel free to discuss.
On May 07 2012 14:53 Chunhyang wrote: With this said, can't hate the T for all-inning I guess. That is their destiny. It was what they were built to do.
On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote: From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
so like...you're having problems with...early 1-1-1s and three rax? and maybe a late two rax?
On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote: From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
Edit: Also one more thing I was thinking about recently. I'm not sure if I'm right, but I think Terran's flaw is the marine has too low hp for late game. I mean units with late game upgrades benefit better because they last longer, but the marine dies too quickly at that point.
I think there should be a good DPS bio unit that is unlocked as 2.5/3 tier or something to replace marines. Feel free to discuss.
Or mech
Unfortunately every Protoss unit is designed to hard-counter it.
On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote: From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
so like...you're having problems with...early 1-1-1s and three rax? and maybe a late two rax?
I'd say 10-11 min attack when terran has at least 2 medivacs, marines and marauders with stim & combat shield researched. It might be my fault as well because I rush to either colossus or double forge with ht tech+charge at the same time.
On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote: From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
so like...you're having problems with...early 1-1-1s and three rax? and maybe a late two rax?
I'd say 10-11 min attack when terran has at least 2 medivacs, marines and marauders with stim & combat shield researched. It might be my fault as well because I rush to either colossus or double forge with ht tech+charge at the same time.
As far as I can tell, the best way to deal with it if you're going double forge is to chill with zealot/sentry and an immortal at your ramp and have your stalkers up in the main but still near the ramp so you can catch drops, which your obs should spot... forcefields are key.
On May 07 2012 14:53 Chunhyang wrote: With this said, can't hate the T for all-inning I guess. That is their destiny. It was what they were built to do.
That game says nothing. Creator made so many mistakes. He didn't even have detection during the batlle , lol.
And also, can people stop derailing the thread with "OMG stop whining about balance QQ " posts. What we are discussing is the response from blizzard saying we have to do damage in the midgame.
Is that good design?
Does it have to be like this?
Are there other lategame options for terran? If not , what needs a buff ?
On May 07 2012 14:53 darkness wrote: From my (protoss) view, late game really helps me a lot, but I'm weak between 7 min and 12 min. Not sure about other protosses, but yeah.. If Blizzard wants to fix late game, then they should also fix period when protoss is most vulnerable. I assume 7-12 min.
Edit: Also one more thing I was thinking about recently. I'm not sure if I'm right, but I think Terran's flaw is the marine has too low hp for late game. I mean units with late game upgrades benefit better because they last longer, but the marine dies too quickly at that point.
I think there should be a good DPS bio unit that is unlocked as 2.5/3 tier or something to replace marines. Feel free to discuss.
Or mech
Unfortunately every Protoss unit is designed to hard-counter it.
Well, I don't think mech is the answer because terrans get engineering bay upgrades which don't affect mech. This is also another advantage of protoss that every ground unit benefits from forge upgrades. Be it colossus, immortal or just gateway units.
I don't think there is a way for mech to catch up with protoss upgrades if you stick with bio up to mid game.
On May 07 2012 11:44 Kharnage wrote: actually what I usually see is terran have their ghosts out front trying to pick off HT's before an engagement. Usually they rely on cloak to keep the ghost safe once the EMP's are fired off. It is rare that I see ghosts being kept safe at the back, and never do I see terran picking up ghosts with a medivac to get the m out of the line of fire. .
Ignoring difficulty, the thing to do is have a handful of ghosts up front to snipe/EMP power units, and the rest safely in back to EMP everything they can and wail on the zealots.
But, I mean, really, you wish the terran player to pick up the ghosts? You might as well wish for a pony while you're at it.
Here is the protoss micro
2 hold F click click click 1 G (optional; in the lategame you might not have any Sentries), A-click hold F click click click click (optional; in the lategame you might not have any Sentries) 5 hold T click click click click (stormmm!) double click stalkers, B-click close to vikings, 5 CC (queue up 2 colossi) W T shift click click click Z, shift click until you have no more money (warp ins!)
Here is the Terran Micro.
2 rightclick (get Vikings into a good position) 4 C click (scan) 2 a-click (snipe observer), right click box select some ghosts, C, hold E or R click click click 1 A-click T (put the bio to work killing zealots) 2 a click 7 VVVD 5 DDDDAAAAA (if you were queueing before the battle you can skip this, but if you don't start queuing ASAP you're in trouble since protoss is already warping in) 3 C, hold E click click click click (land the rest of those EMPs) 1 right click A-click, right click A-click, etc. 5 DDAAAAA (spend that money!)
So without Sentries it's 6 actions and 4 hotkeys for protoss, versus 9 actions (including stutter step!), 5 or 6 hotkeys, and a box select for Terran. And again, because the Protoss army has such higher health that the Terran army, Terran needs better micro to win the battle. I don't think we should be surprised that the lategame favors Protoss given this unit structure
If by some miracle the Terran comes out ahead, whatever T has left over has to deal with something like 8 zealots and 2 archons. Which requires a bunch of marines and a couple of ghosts with available EMPs. GLHF!
Dude u forgot one more step for Terran, which is very crucial and make you unable to do any other things
select ur bio units + T (Stim) + right click on the ground behind the troops (retreat) + Press A + Press the ground + retreat + attack ground.....
I mean KITE!! your force will be melted by the chargelots without kiting, and yea when u are kiting u can't do any of the micros u mentioned above
On May 07 2012 14:00 Angel_ wrote: As far as I can tell, there are three ways for Terran to handle tvp.
The current most used method is a variance of what the daily explained: Get a lead and then win, whether that be getting a lead and then pushing at 200 or whenever and you've outpaced the protoss, or get a lead, keep more bases, and then suffocate them. Both involve getting a lead in the mid-game and abusing it.
The second is just to have really good control. You see this more recently with terran going straight MMM with no ghosts or vikings, or a few ghosts in the late late game, and just making huge arcs, and being really aggressive with tiny numbers of units to stim forward and smash templar, as well as baiting storms and kiting and all that fun stuff that really just underlines "If I have the better micro and am aggressive enough with it, I can win because my units will be more cost effective"
The third, that people just frankly don't use, is to have a good amount of control, and force positioning. If you can have your ghosts in front cloaked and pick off observers and have your vikings safe but still ready for colossi and the right count so you dont punish your ground army and your medivacs safe but still useful and spread with your mauraders in the front and your marines in the back and you can control that well AND make the protoss attack head into it...they shouldn't beat you. People don't do it because it's fucking hard to make a protoss say "you're going to attack here into my army at the angle I want" and because it involves a really good amount of fast control to snipe drop emps Shift attack colossi and stim groups of marines and spread and kite if needed at the drop of a hat.
I expect that as terran get better at all three we're going to see more problems where the terran mid-game is just too strong, or where protoss have to keep developing. More likely, we'll see a terran nerf in the midgame (something nice and random like medivac timing) AND protoss will start developing, just as it's happened at every other point in the protoss matchups (4 gate ----> 2 base all ins ----> lategame ------> ? (? = more aggression in the midgame and/or different openings and/or faster _____ tech) (simplified list)). I hope that as both develop nothing will be nerfed because some people just can't figure it out or do what they need to. I understand the game wants to be balanced at every level of play in every aspect without each race being a mirror, but, frankly...I think that's a naive idea. Right now terran need to be aggressive in the early and mid-game. I'm okay with that.
There is a fourth option that people overlook and say "oh well getting that many ghosts is suicide because your army has no DPS" about, when really that's not the case at all. It's basically getting 15+ ghosts as I've said multiple times, and getting 14+ Vikings to take out all the Colossus really quickly. The remaining MMMG army will crap on the remaining Zealot/Stalker army that has no shields.
I've done this multiple times, it hasn't worked out the way that every protoss seems to think. You still lose enough of your army that you can't really replenish it well, and his warped in reinforcements should be enough to push your army back.
EPT
