TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 66

On May 07 2012 12:27 S_SienZ wrote:

This is true.

I wouldn't complain about TvP at all if I could magically make 3/3 BCs and Thors appear on screen.

On May 07 2012 12:28 Fencer710 wrote:

Actually they're having trouble recognizing the current good one. At the moment, as I've said multiple times, it's 15+ ghosts, 14+ Vikings, 6+ Medivacs, and the rest in MMM.

you do realize that if you have 15 ghosts, 14 vikings, 8 medivacs, and 50 SCV's, you're gonna be running around with an MM ball of no more than 50 units (assuming an 1:1 ratio of marine to marauder), which is pathetically small

edit: also if you're doing the "sac SCVs and rely on MULEs for income" thing you're absolutely fucked if you suddenly lose SCVs or your extra orbitals, you're taking a huge risk just to do that.

On May 07 2012 12:32 corpuscle wrote:




that's way too many ghosts. ghosts are useless once you've carpet-EMP'd/gotten your snipes off, and they can't kite since they don't have stim so they just die to chargelot/colossus while the rest of your bio leaves them behind. there's a reason Terrans have stopped making that many ghosts.

On May 07 2012 12:32 Noocta wrote:
I like what Day9 showed on tonight daily about this topic. People should watch it.
The games shown weren't the best, but the idea of delaying heavily rax 4, 5 and 6 to get the third CC and the second ebay/armory is cool.

It make you able to have an edge to work with even without doing damage with the 10min ish stim+medivac timing.
Still hard as hell to deal with a lategame protoss army, but it's better than nothing.

Excuse me, 22 damage per shot on Chargelots plus cloaking, anyone?

On May 07 2012 12:32 Noocta wrote:
I like what Day9 showed on tonight daily about this topic. People should watch it.
The games shown weren't the best, but the idea of delaying heavily rax 4, 5 and 6 to get the third CC and the second ebay/armory is cool.

It make you able to have an edge to work with even without doing damage with the 10min ish stim+medivac timing.
Still hard as hell to deal with a lategame protoss army, but it's better than nothing.

On May 07 2012 11:44 Kharnage wrote:
actually what I usually see is terran have their ghosts out front trying to pick off HT's before an engagement. Usually they rely on cloak to keep the ghost safe once the EMP's are fired off. It is rare that I see ghosts being kept safe at the back, and never do I see terran picking up ghosts with a medivac to get the m out of the line of fire.
.

On May 07 2012 12:41 ZeroTalent wrote:


Ignoring difficulty, the thing to do is have a handful of ghosts up front to snipe/EMP power units, and the rest safely in back to EMP everything they can and wail on the zealots.

But, I mean, really, you wish the terran player to pick up the ghosts? You might as well wish for a pony while you're at it.

Here is the protoss micro

2 hold F click click click
1 G (optional; in the lategame you might not have any Sentries),
A-click
hold F click click click click (optional; in the lategame you might not have any Sentries)
5 hold T click click click click (stormmm!)
double click stalkers, B-click close to vikings,
5 CC (queue up 2 colossi)
W T shift click click click Z, shift click until you have no more money (warp ins!)

Here is the Terran Micro.

2 rightclick (get Vikings into a good position)
4 C click (scan)
2 a-click (snipe observer), right click
box select some ghosts, C, hold E or R click click click
1 A-click T (put the bio to work killing zealots)
2 a click
7 VVVD 5 DDDDAAAAA (if you were queueing before the battle you can skip this, but if you don't start queuing ASAP you're in trouble since protoss is already warping in)
3 C, hold E click click click click (land the rest of those EMPs)
1 right click A-click, right click A-click, etc.
5 DDAAAAA (spend that money!)

So without Sentries it's 6 actions and 4 hotkeys for protoss, versus 9 actions (including stutter step!), 5 or 6 hotkeys, and a box select for Terran. And again, because the Protoss army has such higher health that the Terran army, Terran needs better micro to win the battle. I don't think we should be surprised that the lategame favors Protoss given this unit structure

If by some miracle the Terran comes out ahead, whatever T has left over has to deal with something like 8 zealots and 2 archons. Which requires a bunch of marines and a couple of ghosts with available EMPs. GLHF!

On May 07 2012 12:25 corpuscle wrote:
you do realize that if you have 15 ghosts, 14 vikings, 8 medivacs, and 50 SCV's, you're gonna be running around with an MM ball of no more than 50 units (assuming an 1:1 ratio of marine to marauder), which is pathetically small

edit: also if you're doing the "sac SCVs and rely on MULEs for income" thing you're absolutely fucked if you suddenly lose SCVs or your extra orbitals, you're taking a huge risk just to do that.

On May 07 2012 12:41 ZeroTalent wrote:

But, I mean, really, you wish the terran player to pick up the ghosts? You might as well wish for a pony while you're at it

(1) 1:1 marine/marauder ratio is actually pretty bad in the lategame. The heart of the Protoss army is going to be Zealot/Archon, with enough stalkers to pick off vikings, and then some HT and perhaps Immortals thrown in. Marauders aren't cost or supply effective against most of those units. Just against stalkers and colossi. You're better off with a ratio somewhere between 2:1 and 4:1 marine/marauder.

(2) If he gets to your extra orbitals, you've already lost anyway. (the point about sudden SCV loss is real with templar + warp prism)

On May 07 2012 12:38 corpuscle wrote:


Day9 basically explained how every korean has been playing TvP for the last 3 months. It wasn't useful at all. He basically showed how everyone who watches tournaments closely already knows how Terran wins. It was frankly a pretty low-level analysis of the matchup and showed literally nothing new.

Basically, if you try to turtle and lose to protoss deathballs because you didn't do anything in the midgame, it's helpful. If you have some semblance of an idea of what to do in current TvP, you sat there listening and saying "yeah, I fucking know, thanks."
.

On May 07 2012 12:55 Noocta wrote:


Sometimes I feel it's just what people need to remember that hey, TvP is not unwinnable if you move your ass a bit before the guy has 3/3 Chargelots archon colossus storm and you start to invest in long term play early enough yourself.

There's nothing new to find so people who aren't MKP or Puma or Polt so they can win TvP. Not any magic trick nobody discovered before or stuff like that.

Just do what you need to do, stop being scared of very lategame protoss and start winning games.

On May 07 2012 12:55 corpuscle wrote:


Yeah, seriously? What's the logic here?

"I'm worried about getting hit by feedback, so I'm gonna put my ghosts in a dropship that has energy and doesn't have cloak. Problem solved!"

On May 07 2012 12:55 Kharnage wrote:


I love how the terran player gets movement commands to position vikings. I love how chrono on warp gates is ignored. I love how repositioing to the neartest pylon before you can warp in units is ignored. I love how bringing HT's from around the map so they can pre-emptively storm where your bio army is going to be is ignored, and lets all pretend that stalkers are never blinked to focus down priority targets.

What this looks like to me is a high level terran player knowing the ins and outs of what they do while having no real idea what the protoss player does during an engagement.

the funny thing is that I agree; bio is flimsy and it takes a lot of good control and attention to keep them out of the storm radius while keeping your production running and trying to snipe / emp HT and archons and get your vikings to pick off the colossus, then landing the vikings once the colossus is dead, landing your factory to choke and distract the chargelots, and all important what to do with the slight advantage you gain if you come out ahead in the battle.
We know it's hard, yes protoss has the advantage in the late game, just try and keep your hyperbole to a minimum.

On May 07 2012 13:05 Kharnage wrote:
Basically what i'm getting at is that terran don't fucking look after their ghosts! They don't! Watch game after game, whoever the fuck you like at watch their ghost positioning and what they do with their ghosts once the engagement begins. The ghost is the front line spell caster of the terran army. And by front line i mean the first row.

On May 07 2012 13:05 Kharnage wrote:

.
You don't want you ghosts to die so you put them in a low energy medivac when pulling back instead of leaving them on the ground in front of the chargelots going 'fuck, i hope he doesn't have a 2nd observer near by. oh he did, protoss imba!'

Maybe 'oh look, he's gone for a low colossus count zealot archon ht mix, not a lot of shit shooting up there! better not lose those key ghosts now that my EMP's are fired off. I bet they will be real handy when his archon reinforcements come in...'

Or even 'losing my ghosts sucks because they take ages to rebuild, i'm going to EMP then evac my ghosts'

Basically what i'm getting at is that terran don't fucking look after their ghosts! They don't! Watch game after game, whoever the fuck you like at watch their ghost positioning and what they do with their ghosts once the engagement begins. The ghost is the front line spell caster of the terran army. And by front line i mean the first row.

On May 07 2012 12:55 corpuscle wrote:


Yeah, seriously? What's the logic here?

"I'm worried about getting hit by feedback, so I'm gonna put my ghosts in a dropship that has energy and doesn't have cloak. Problem solved!"



1) I went with 1:1 marine/marauder ratio just as a guess, but maybe it's more like 2:1-3:1. Even if you go 3:1 marine:marauder, it's a pretty weak bioball, you're gonna end up with a lot of fairly useless/vulnerable/expensive vikings/ghosts if you control properly. I'm more of the opinion that you need to control a smaller number of ghosts and vikings really well, while pulling the protoss out of position with drops and hit-squads since you have more bio/medivacs, rather than focusing on the "power" units.

2) Yeah, I agree, I just wanted to make sure people don't think that it's like you can just transition over to mules and not give a fuck. It makes your econ a lot more vulnerable; losing 20 SCV's when you only have 50 is a huge difference from losing 20 when you have 70 in terms of how much it affects your income.