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On May 07 2012 11:17 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:13 KingLol wrote:On May 07 2012 11:09 InoyouS2 wrote:
That's an all-in build, and it got nerfed into the ground.
Since when was 111 nerfed "into the ground"???? It's by FAR the strongest XvP all-in there is: very difficult to stop even when scouted well in advance. Immortal range buff and the new proposed observer build time would be the only indirect nerfs I can think of that relate to the 111. The immortal counters the 1/1/1 nicely, also the fact that the strongest tactic against Protoss is an all-in further reinforces the late-game issue. Anyway, been fun, love seeing people try and come up with possible buffs to add more units into the army composition a Terran can choose in TvP, I look forward to a day when TvP late-game doesn't look the same in every match I watch.
Show me a game where the Terran goes for 15+ Ghosts and loses consistently in the direct engagements anyway.
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On May 07 2012 11:11 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:07 Reval wrote:
It just seems to me like terran have been winning for a long time with mid-game pushes or all-in's and now that protoss are learning to deal with it they've hit a wall.
The era of terran's going 111 every game didn't exactly improve their play. Why is 1/1/1 being quoted in a topic titled "TvP late-game?", the reason TvP is imbalanced is because TvP LATEGAME is imbalanced, and Terrans rushing with timing attacks not only is way harder to do (attacking is a lot more difficult and risky than defending), but there is no late-game plan for Terrans after that push, it's an all-in for that reason. We are talking about late-game in this thread, and if it's all the same, I'd gladly see Blizzard throw the majority of Terran all-ins out of the window if it'd get us a usable late-game army composition that wasn't total horse crap.
I mentioned the 111 as an example of an all-in a lot of terran were abusing thus hindering their learning in the matchup.
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On May 07 2012 11:11 InoyouS2 wrote:
the reason TvP is imbalanced is because TvP LATEGAME is imbalanced
Actually, since Terran has a higher winrate than Protoss in TvP, the early-midgame (where Terran is believed to hold the advantage) is most likely the reason that the matchup is imbalanced.
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Day[9] is doing a Daily about this topic right now. You guys should tune in!
EDIT: If you can't watch it atm it is Daily #458. Part 2 is going to start soon.
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On May 07 2012 11:32 Chicken Chaser wrote:
Day[9] is doing a Daily about this topic right now. You guys should tune in!
I know. I'm not that big of a fan of this particular daily because there's already a way to beat Protoss in the late-game using Mass Ghost, and everyone keeps saying that "Well, in every game you post the Protoss makes a huge mistake which leads to him losing the game rather than the mass ghosts." When clearly, if the Terran had only 3-5 ghosts for EMP and Snipe on the HT's, he would have lost.
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I just want to note day9 is doing a daily on this topic explaining why blizzard is right. Everyone who disagrees should go watch it and explain why he is wrong.
If you can't then blizzard and day9 are right and tvp is fine.
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The reason that the 111 is significant is because a lot of the nerfs suggested against protoss or buffs to terran would strengthen 111 variants back to their previous state.
The terran early to mid game is as strong as the protoss late game and since almost exactly the same units are used by terran from the first 8 minutes buffing or nerfing their respective counterparts, such as zealots, would result in an overwhelming advantage for terran in the early game.
Look to nerf HT or colossus or buff terran tier 3 otherwise terran 1 base all in or 2 base variants will come back in style not because terran fear the late game, but because they are unstoppable.
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Exactly. Keeping your Ghosts alive is as important as a Protoss keeping his HT's and or Colossus alive, since they're basically always useful against Protoss, regardless of the composition he's going for. Stalkers? EMP takes away half their HP, and they're complete crap against Marauders. HT's? EMP and Snipe. Chargelots? EMP and auto-attack. Archons? EMP. Colossus are the only unit where Ghosts aren't that useful, and they can be nullified by a large Viking count.
Problem with EMP's on the main protoss ball is that multiple EMPs do nothing except of archons. And Archons are pretty big so you don't really hit anything else. Vs HTs, ghosts are great. However, most protoss will have HTs at the back at max range so your ghosts have to be up front in order to hit them which exposes them to charglots. When you see a lot of 'even' TvP engagements where both sides trade and take loses and retreat, the Protoss retains a lot of their HTs and terrans usually have 0 ghosts. So in the next engagement, P has 8-10 HTs and terrans only has 3-4 ghosts.
Maybe the terrans need to try to retreat with their ghosts, but not sure it is ust not possible(or much much harder) vs chargelots
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On May 07 2012 07:34 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 07:30 ZeroTalent wrote:
Also, it would be very hard for Blizzard to balance the lategame without unbalancing the overall matchup, or breaking other matchups and/or radically altering TvT. So it is what it is. Live with it and come up with anti-Turtle Toss Technology. it doesnt matter if TvT is altered because it's a mirror matchup and thus skill-only.
I mean that it could upset the current balance of Marine+Tank/Mech/Bio Rock-Paper-Scissors.
Let me give an example. Suppose they decided to fix TvP lategame by giving Siege Tanks back their 50 damage in siege mode regardless of Light/Armored/whatever. That might make mech stronger than Bio. Or they might give Marauders 12 damage (+8 vs) armored. That might boost Bio, etc.
My point is that there may be balance changes that could fix TvP lategame that might have undesirable consequences from Blizzard's perspective for other matchups, including, yes, TvT. If TvP lategame was fair but every TvT was mech vs mech that might actually be less fun for the typical player.
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On May 07 2012 11:37 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly. Keeping your Ghosts alive is as important as a Protoss keeping his HT's and or Colossus alive, since they're basically always useful against Protoss, regardless of the composition he's going for. Stalkers? EMP takes away half their HP, and they're complete crap against Marauders. HT's? EMP and Snipe. Chargelots? EMP and auto-attack. Archons? EMP. Colossus are the only unit where Ghosts aren't that useful, and they can be nullified by a large Viking count. Problem with EMP's on the main protoss ball is that multiple EMPs do nothing except of archons. And Archons are pretty big so you don't really hit anything else. Vs HTs, ghosts are great. However, most protoss will have HTs at the back at max range so your ghosts have to be up front in order to hit them which exposes them to charglots. When you see a lot of 'even' TvP engagements where both sides trade and take loses and retreat, the Protoss retains a lot of their HTs and terrans usually have 0 ghosts. So in the next engagement, P has 8-10 HTs and terrans only has 3-4 ghosts. Maybe the terrans need to try to retreat with their ghosts, but not sure it is ust not possible(or much much harder) vs chargelots
actually what I usually see is terran have their ghosts out front trying to pick off HT's before an engagement. Usually they rely on cloak to keep the ghost safe once the EMP's are fired off. It is rare that I see ghosts being kept safe at the back, and never do I see terran picking up ghosts with a medivac to get the m out of the line of fire.
While snipe and EMP both outrange feedback and storm, the spread out nature of a parting style storm reinforcement would make ghost snipes very hard to pull off at that time. however I'm not so convinced that the leagues we're talking about have many protoss players who are capable of partings multitasking while engaging either...
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I like how Day9 tried to point out how the Protoss deathball is finally up and that it's really expensive and in the army value meter the terran army actually costs more. Lmao.
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On May 07 2012 11:37 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +Exactly. Keeping your Ghosts alive is as important as a Protoss keeping his HT's and or Colossus alive, since they're basically always useful against Protoss, regardless of the composition he's going for. Stalkers? EMP takes away half their HP, and they're complete crap against Marauders. HT's? EMP and Snipe. Chargelots? EMP and auto-attack. Archons? EMP. Colossus are the only unit where Ghosts aren't that useful, and they can be nullified by a large Viking count. Problem with EMP's on the main protoss ball is that multiple EMPs do nothing except of archons. And Archons are pretty big so you don't really hit anything else. Vs HTs, ghosts are great. However, most protoss will have HTs at the back at max range so your ghosts have to be up front in order to hit them which exposes them to charglots. When you see a lot of 'even' TvP engagements where both sides trade and take loses and retreat, the Protoss retains a lot of their HTs and terrans usually have 0 ghosts. So in the next engagement, P has 8-10 HTs and terrans only has 3-4 ghosts. Maybe the terrans need to try to retreat with their ghosts, but not sure it is ust not possible(or much much harder) vs chargelots
Half HP on Stalkers, minus 1/3 HP on Zealots, minus 2/5 HP on Colossus, minus 99% HP on Archons, etc etc, means that it's actually really good against Protoss. Remember that you can have up to 30 EMP's plus the auto attack with 15 ghosts, plus you can cloak for a period of time if you snipe the observer, effectively rendering the Ghosts invulnerable to all but psi storms, which he should have very few of, and are extremely ineffective against Ghosts due to the fact that they have almost as much HP as marauders.
I don't really want to write another guide, so: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335051
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Day9 very wise in pointing that if you have more bases than Protoss then you will have an advantage.
This is like the worst daily ever.
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On May 07 2012 11:53 zEnVy wrote:
Day9 very wise in pointing that if you have more bases than Protoss then you will have an advantage.
This is like the worst daily ever.
It's true that if you go for a lot of MMM and not that much VG you need to be ahead in the base count to win. I don't like that style very much at all.
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On May 04 2012 23:54 Quotidian wrote:
I think we just need to realize that - as far as tvp goes - Wings of Liberty is a sinking ship. There's really nothing that can be done about it. Blizzard needs to do massive changes the various parts of the tvp game to even it out.
My suggestions are remove the marauder, remove the medivac and find some way to make a straight up dropship more interesting. Switch out the colossus with a less a-move focused unit (revamp the Reaver, bascially) Add medics, buff tanks vs protoss shields. And since the marauder is gone, let the new mini-thor be ok vs Ultras. On top of that, add more new funky stuff like the Oracle or whatever... oh, and remove warpgates.. yeah, like that's going to happen -.-
I agree basically with the WoL being not anymore the version to do the tweaks and changing the medivac mechanics. I disagree however with marauders and reintroduction of the reaver. medivacs have broken the game by being too flexible especially that Terran can always go bio regardless of the matchup. Make medivac an exclusive transpo ship and add medics. More skills, more fun.
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On May 07 2012 11:53 zEnVy wrote:
Day9 very wise in pointing that if you have more bases than Protoss then you will have an advantage.
This is like the worst daily ever.
Well the important part is how Puma got the 4th base up and that Puma is trading armies, rather than letter protoss max out and build up a huge bank. He got the 4th base up during the mid game and managed to keep the protoss building.
And now he talks about maxing with marauders and trading armies, which is what ever zerg does against protoss.
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On May 07 2012 11:56 The ImmortaI One wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 23:54 Quotidian wrote:
I think we just need to realize that - as far as tvp goes - Wings of Liberty is a sinking ship. There's really nothing that can be done about it. Blizzard needs to do massive changes the various parts of the tvp game to even it out.
My suggestions are remove the marauder, remove the medivac and find some way to make a straight up dropship more interesting. Switch out the colossus with a less a-move focused unit (revamp the Reaver, bascially) Add medics, buff tanks vs protoss shields. And since the marauder is gone, let the new mini-thor be ok vs Ultras. On top of that, add more new funky stuff like the Oracle or whatever... oh, and remove warpgates.. yeah, like that's going to happen -.- I agree basically with the WoL being not anymore the version to do the tweaks and changing the medivac mechanics. I disagree however with marauders and reintroduction of the reaver. medivacs have broken the game by being too flexible especially that Terran can always go bio regardless of the matchup. Make medivac an exclusive transpo ship and add medics. More skills, more fun.
How is your solution to making TvP more balanced nerfing medivacs?
You make lots of sense.
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Is Day9 seriously using a game where P doesn't even research Storm as an example? WTF?
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On May 07 2012 12:00 S_SienZ wrote:
Is Day9 seriously using a game where P doesn't even research Storm as an example? WTF?
He could never afford it because Puma kept him on the ropes all game while expanding.
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This daily is silly.
The reason Puma won that engagement in the middle was because protoss decided to engage with his zealots behind his entire army and went up against a planetary fortress. Even then it was an even trade. Not to mention the complete lack of storms and relatively low archon count.
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EPT
