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On May 07 2012 04:45 ][Primarch][ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:33 avilo wrote:
Btw, myself and many other Terran's have suggested plenty of things that they could actually do to start balancing out lategame, and I have no idea if blizzard has considered any but:
Lategame TvZ:
-Tweak raven energy to 75 for HSM, remove the energy upgrade. This gives Terran a unit against broodlord/infestor, as well as a lategame splash unit in general. It would be as "imbalanced" as broodlord+infestor+corruptor currently is, aka just like brood war. They need to start taking this stance in their balance design - make things powerful, instead of nerf, nerf, nerf.
Broodlord infestor is powerful as fuck lategame, but giving Terran something equally as powerful to use such as a 75 nrg HSM means not only does Terran get lategame power just like Zerg does in this situation, but both players have incredibly strong things that can actually counteract the other.
In Brood war, irradiate and defilers were both "IMBALANCED" but the game ended up being very dynamic and excellent regardless. People have really lost touch with this because they don't remember just how damn good brood war is. Do people realize that defilers literally made all of their zerg ground units INVINCIBLE against 99% of Terran's units? Do people realize the science vessel actually could have enough energy for two irradiates that would kill every single Zerg unit and do splash to units around those? (ok it didn't kill the ultra, but it took out half it's health!)
The keys to making this game "good" are all there, it's just it seems the design team does not want to take anything from Starcraft 1 in concept/idea/design to get SC2 to where the balance needs to be. It's a bit disappointing, considering 99% of us are playing SC2 because of how awesome BW is.
Lategame PvT:
-Make BCS more viable/change price/something
BCS are Terran's tier3, there is potential there to make that a transition unit for Terrans. It actually can be in the current game, but it requires 45 min+ stalemate situations (believe me, I probably have the most experience of any Terrans in 45 min+ games).
-Nerf the warpgate for the purpose of nerfing protoss's mid-game all-in strength across the board in all three match-ups.
Protoss was never meant to have an expoitable assortment of 2 base all-ins vs Z/T. The warp prism was supposed to provide this function of allowing itself to be a mobile warp generator. To fix a lot of issues for PvT lategame, and Protoss all-ins in general (including retarded 1 base all-ins PvP) simply make it so you can only warp in units AROUND GATEWAYS.
What this ends up doing is it makes Protoss as a race harder, because all-ins in the manner they are done nowadays will only be accessible through a warp prism. It also means that in lategame TvP if Terran has outplayed the Protoss the Terran is actually given an opportunity via time and travel distance to punish Protoss's expansions/bases. Yes, protoss can still build gateways at far away bases, but that becomes an investment/risk and obviously make the warp-in radius not gigantic so a Protoss player now also has to consider base layout as well.
It removes the entire advantage protoss has of simply avoiding travel distance, which is one of the fundamental problems right now with SC2 protoss, and then makes Protoss a less "easy" race to play, which is good.
-Late game chargelots
They require no micro, and are bad for the game in general. Do something that makes the protoss player actually have to watch them/micro them instead of simply warp in and go afk.
-Mech vs Protoss - FIX IT!
Terran mech is brood war, just because it's brood war does not mean it's bad *I'm looking at Dustin Browder right now*. In beta, you could go full ghost mech against protoss, and play long macro games even on ridiculously large maps, because siege tanks always were cost effective with their brood war damage, meaning if you were already pre-sieged, and protoss engaged like a caveman, you would always, always get your money's worth.
But Browder/Kim seem to have something against anything that is like "brood war" and they nerfed the siege tank, buffed the chargelot, and that was the nail in the coffin for mech tvp. A lot of people do not even remember this change if they did not play the beta, but this is why mech has become a "relic of the past" because of pre-emptive changes to make the game less like broodwar, and encourage Terrans to use the 1A marauder instead.
Mech can be made viable TvP, blizzard can do it, let's hope they will instead of side skirting around the issue. They can cheapen armory prices/mech/sky upgrade prices, remove thor energy, things of this nature, along with looking at the zealot armor type and making it so tanks can actually kill chargelots in siege mode lategame...
There's a lot that can be done to make Terran viable in lategame, that blizzard simply is not doing right now, whether out of fear that the game will be like brood war with "lots of siege tanks" or for whatever other reasons or because of the fear that Terran will be "imba" like it was ORIGINALLY in beta...but they really need to realize there is a balance problem right now and simply ignoring it and saying "Protoss has the advantage when they defend all your harass" is not the way to go about it.
No Terran, no pro terran, not even any Terran in lower leagues is going to be happy that blizzard has no acknowledged they are at a disadvantage when the game goes long. IT's just wrong. Such a good post!
While I agree with some of these idea, especially HSM and BC fix, I think your 'make mech viable by nerfing chargelots and buffing tanks' would be insane. like batshit. no terran would lose to protoss ever again. It would be 111 every game, on every map.
The balance between siege tanks, marines and gateway units right now in the early game is so rediculously fine.
I really like the idea of warp gate only working within a radius of an actual warp gate, though i'd like to see warp prism warp in radius increased and while deployed they get hardened shields or something so that a couple of vikings don't instantly shut down a protoss push. I'd also love to see cannons powered by buildings not pylons to stop annoying cannons rush strats, maybe with a reduction in cannon build time.
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What about a fusion core upgrade for reapers, that's cheap but... changes the unit. Basically it makes reapers take the same time as marines to build, can be built from reactered barracks but removes their ability to cliff jump and skips their explosive charges to stop lolreaper raids. Just call it desperation training, it allows the reaper to fill a critical role in the Terran army without making it extremely overpowered and devastating in the other matchups.
It's kind of extreme but allows a Terran to quickly sink his excess gas and gain a unit that is excellent against chargelots, while not allowing the reapers to destroy entire economies and basis in one fell swoop.
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Remove feedback from HT's, should at least make BC's and Thors a little more viable. As it stands now, HT's counter pretty much all higher tier units Terran have.
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On May 07 2012 08:26 BigO wrote:
Remove feedback from HT's, should at least make BC's and Thors a little more viable. As it stands now, HT's counter pretty much all higher tier units Terran have.
Removing Feedback would mess up all kinds of things, not limited to the Ghost vs HT dynamic and Cloaked Banshee strats.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 07 2012 08:26 BigO wrote:
Remove feedback from HT's, should at least make BC's and Thors a little more viable. As it stands now, HT's counter pretty much all higher tier units Terran have.
Lol wut?
At any rate, this thread was always going to be nothing more than terrans complaining and whining, and protoss players telling them to shut up and suck it up while quoting numbers that aren't even really relevant.
Kind of pointless on both sides.
Oh, and then there's the zerg players who don't care either way.
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On May 07 2012 01:28 chestnutcc wrote:...terran's continuous production mechanic favours constant reinforcement, while warp gates will only be able to do so at regular intervals. Warp gates require thought as to what to produce when, you don't constantly produce a steady ratio of units out of them.
Terran have a bigger advantage, since their production facilities are segregated and they produce fixed ratios of units, they just have to constantly keep making the same. A toss will lose a game by warping in a round of zealots where a round of stalkers was required, terran only has to have the right number of buildings with the right number of add ons, which is usually predetermined (i.e. 3 rax, 1 tech lab, 2 reactors etc).
Did you just say all that with a straight face? That having the flexibility of picking your units on the go is a disadvantage? That getting your units up front near any pylon is worse than having to wait for a production cycle and then for your units to get to your army?
On May 07 2012 01:28 chestnutcc wrote: This is how a 2 rax insta wins if it snipes a sentry or two, theres a constant stream of marines and marauders behind it, but by the time warp gate cool downs are done, too much damage has been done by the reinforcements.
Yeah those reinforcements you are talking about were made at least two production cycles ago, while you know... the actual battle was happening and you already had your batch there to fight.
On May 07 2012 01:28 chestnutcc wrote:Drops do damage when they hit during cool downs and manage to snipe supporting pylons (which both supply block and disable gates). It doesn't even matter if the drop dies, since by the time it does, its already been reproduced.
You have the advantage of warping in at the drop location, that it can be negated does not turn it into a disadvantage. What you wrote is akin to saying overlords can scout and transport units, thus a zerg is worse off losing one than a terran is losing a supply depot; backwards logic.
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On May 04 2012 15:07 papaz wrote:
The statement is just PR nonsense. It doesn't say much if anything at all. This is just a statement so that people on forums feel a bit more relaxed getting a blue answer.
What was it in that statement that:
1. The community didn't already know?
2. Is worthy of being upset or surprised?
The bottom line is: The races are balanced, the community or the vocal part of the community feel that Blizzard is making wrong design choices and Blizzard is happy with their design choices.
Seriously, how is this news? They said literally the exact same thing at last year's Blizzcon Multiplayer Balance panel.
I know I'm going to be attacked for saying this but the problem is that it may not be realistically possible to balance all three races for multiple styles in nine matchups. I KNOW - BLASPHEMY, BURN THE UNBELIEVER, etc, but isn't that the reason you pick a specific race anyway - because your style matches the style of play that the race uses?
Brood War did have more flexibility but not by much. Seriously, 1-2 new units and a handful of balance tweaks and the game could be even more balanced and interesting. The concept isn't flawed now and it wasn't flawed 15 years ago either.
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Regardless if the current state of the game is balanced or not, I'd like to see Blizz try and encourage more BC / Thor useage in TvP and possibly carrier use as well. Ultras could also use a little love.
honestly most of the tier 3 units are pretty lack-luster which is why only colosus and BL are common with thors getting some screen time when mutas are out or in TvT.
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I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont.
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On May 07 2012 09:28 Kharnage wrote:
Regardless if the current state of the game is balanced or not, I'd like to see Blizz try and encourage more BC / Thor useage in TvP and possibly carrier use as well. Ultras could also use a little love.
honestly most of the tier 3 units are pretty lack-luster which is why only colosus and BL are common with thors getting some screen time when mutas are out or in TvT.
Ultralisks are fine as-is. -_____- See Stephano's ZvT if you want to see some Ultralisk usage.
If anything, Zerg needs the Roach and Hydralisk re-worked into the game IMO, to allow for more army unit micro while keeping the idea of a 'swarm'.
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On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont.
Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP?
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On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP?
You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac.
You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings.
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I think nerfing the damage done by FB to massive units wouldn't be a bad idea. Would encourage more Thor/BC play from Terran, allowing there to actually be the appearance of an Immortal/VRs past the first 10 minutes of a game.
Either way, Colossi+HTs should not be touched other than the FB suggestion imo.
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On May 07 2012 07:32 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 07:00 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 06:47 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote:
I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg. You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy. I'm telling you it works. Try it out in a UMS or something. It really really works. No, it doesn't, and it's clear you don't play Sc2 at a high enough level to know what works and what doesn't... For instance, has the whole theme of the thread slipped by you? The theme is that TvP, Terran HAS to win before lategame, as there is no other option, due to having a very poor late-game army composition, that focuses on trying to engage small groups of enemies or harassing, any smart protoss will just a-move your base and flat-out kill you rather than try to defend the drops. The idea might have been plausible once, maybe when ghost hadn't been nerfed to smithereens.
This is why some people will never improve.
Edit:
This thread has really run off into just a QQ zone for terran players (myself included) and any and all discussion has pretty much ended up as "stfu noob that would never work". instead of trying to figure out real responses to stuff.
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On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings.
Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply.
Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements.
(And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.)
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On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.)
The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards.
I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced.
The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm.
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On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings.
If you're making 80 workers, you're doing it wrong. The most you want in TvP is 70, and that's if the game is very aggressive and you can't make more than 2-3 orbital commands, so you need those workers to stay even on economy.
Remember that Ghosts do 22 damage to Zealots when both sides are at full upgrades, plus they have 100 HP plus medivacs. I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
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On May 07 2012 10:27 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 10:07 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 09:58 GinDo wrote:On May 07 2012 09:49 Fencer710 wrote:On May 07 2012 09:45 DwindleFlip wrote:
I cant beat protoss at all. I can out produce them, out macro them, out resource them, harass them... HT + colossus, is too powerful. Terran is just too weak.
I have nothing kind to say about David Kim, so i wont. Mass HT/Colossus? Have you tried 14+ vikings and 15+ ghosts for mass EMP? You do realize that's 58 supply? 58 supply plus 80 workers leaves around 62 supply for MMM. Thats about 15 Maruader and 30 marines and 1 medivac. You might win the 1st engagement, but then Protoss warps in a mass ground army and then your screwed because you dumped all your supply into specialized Ghost and Vikings. Late-game you should be dropping workers down to 50 or so and suplimenting with mules. Freeing up an additional 30 supply. Combine this with rallies into their base will allow you to at least break even vs their reinforcements. (And going back to my previous post, if it's this late in the game stop with making so many marines and go into more ghost for the zealots. your army value will increase alot and they do considerably more dps to the zealot wall than marines would.) The Terran never gets a chance to get to this stage, Protoss 1-a deathballs with fast upgrades just flatten the Terran, the Terran has become more like the Zerg in a sense now, because it must be constantly trading COST EFFECTIVELY with the Protoss deathball, and the problem with this is that chargelots only cost 100 minerals, while the really hard hitting Protoss units are sitting WAAAAAAAY at the back, just slaughtering everything that doesn't run backwards. I liked avilo's post a lot, maybe take 1-2 of the suggestions and it would actually be balanced. The units I'd REALLY love to see used for Terran in TvP are BC, raven and reaper, I think TvZ atm is very balanced and is my favourite matchup to play and watch, but TvP is a joke atm.
I recommend watching this game, quoted from a post by NrGmonk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os0ggYkHVvM&feature=plcp
+ Show Spoiler +In this game, Happy basically turtles on 3-4 bases after a failed Ghost timing attack, all while massing 20+ ghosts for Snipe, EMP, and DPS against Zealots, as well as 14+ Vikings to take care of the Colossus and Observers. He barely does any drops at all, but still wins the game very easily, as well as being on fewer bases the majority of the time.
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On May 07 2012 10:03 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 07:32 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 07:00 Talack wrote:On May 07 2012 06:47 InoyouS2 wrote:On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote:
I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg. You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy. I'm telling you it works. Try it out in a UMS or something. It really really works. No, it doesn't, and it's clear you don't play Sc2 at a high enough level to know what works and what doesn't... For instance, has the whole theme of the thread slipped by you? The theme is that TvP, Terran HAS to win before lategame, as there is no other option, due to having a very poor late-game army composition, that focuses on trying to engage small groups of enemies or harassing, any smart protoss will just a-move your base and flat-out kill you rather than try to defend the drops. The idea might have been plausible once, maybe when ghost hadn't been nerfed to smithereens. This is why some people will never improve. Edit: This thread has really run off into just a QQ zone for terran players (myself included) and any and all discussion has pretty much ended up as "stfu noob that would never work". instead of trying to figure out real responses to stuff.
The responses have already been figured out, and they are:
Tons of Vikings if he gets a lot of Colossus.
15+ Ghosts if he goes mainly HT/Archon/Zealot.
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On May 07 2012 10:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I think nerfing the damage done by FB to massive units wouldn't be a bad idea. Would encourage more Thor/BC play from Terran, allowing there to actually be the appearance of an Immortal/VRs past the first 10 minutes of a game.
Either way, Colossi+HTs should not be touched other than the FB suggestion imo.
I think that 50% damage on FB to Massive would be great, as well as the BC getting +2 damage per attack upgrade instead of only +1 attack. This would make it far more viable in the late-game for DPS, and it could be a very slow transition. The problem is that you don't even need to use it to win late-game, since the resources would be better spent on more Ghosts and Vikings.
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EPT
