Lol @ the bisu vs flash game linked. Bisu starts off with a BO advantage, follows it up with a greedy and unpunished midgame, and rolls flash while having a huge supply advantage. Your argument completely ignores the said supply advantage, the fact that 1-0 terran army is not as scary as the 'tvp lategame 2-2 or 3-3' army, and the fact that bisu rolled w/ arbiter timing, too(cloaking does have a large effect). Of course he easily rolled that army. Now go and watch some colosseum games, where flash turtles in the center with actually maxed/heavy upgraded/EMP supported army, and protoss wastes 200 psi, bringing flash down to 180. Or something along those lines. Mech's only weaknesses are how it's immobile, needs to be in position that is hard to flank, needs babysitting\high level play, and is hard to reinforce. When maps support mech, making it hard to flank or counter or have an easily split map \ map with low bases count, it's extreeeemely tough to stop.
As for sc2, terran doesn't really have THAT much issues late game as most seem to say. Ghosts are great, protoss army that got emp'ed properly, can't win a fight, and can't retreat without sacrifices. Warp prism HT's and EMP nerf help, but terran'd still be favored in that situation. Cloak is awesome. Bio melts chargelots \ stalkers if you keep up on upgrades. Ghosts can vaporize archons if you can afford it. If you get ahead enough in macro to sac scvs, you're in position to roll over the protoss. Heavy upgraded vikings slaughter colossi. The 2 medivac midgame timing doesn't have to "do heavy damage" to protoss. It's enough that it allows to take a faster 3rd. During the period when P lacks splash damage, you get to make them burn sentry energy, poke over and over to pick off gateway units, delay their 3rd while getting yours up faster. If they can, anyway, take an extremely fast 3rd, while suffering no damage no matter what - it's probably the map's fault; but this area of the game and possible adaptations aren't well discovered yet. Once they secure their 3rd, you still get to be greedy, because protoss is fairly immobile. Namely, HTs are really slow. You get to threaten a counter until they, pretty much, almost max out. Then it's up to terran to use their gained economy lead(thanks to forced protoss passivity), and break that army. The economy lead can manifest in anything from heavy upgrades to ton of production facilities for reinforcements, to heavy ghost/viking count, etc. Reinforcements do work, because so long as you don't fight at your own doorstep in 1st engagement, or have separated production facilities; you get to kill some colossi and burn HT energy. Warp-ins are 50 energy HTs and gateway units, not storm and colossi; and while they get to your base you pretty much remax, possibly giving up "a base" and then smashing them. If your lead is really large, you'll probably have great upgrades and sacrificed scvs; this kind of army will smash protoss death ball.
As someone who plays both T and P on a decent level...most of the whining in this thread is really, really off the mark. Even if there's some kind of "heavy" imbalance on the top end pros level...it'd probably be enough to fix it with maps alone. Or we could just wait for terrans to step up their expansion timings/gametime, endgame engagements, midgame annoyance + throw in some more early aggression to cut the most greedy P openings probability.
On May 07 2012 05:13 InoyouS2 wrote: IMO all races should have the option to macro and try to win with raw macro mechanics and bigger armies.
Protoss has this option in the colossus/stalker/zealot/sentry deathball, and also has a more mobile (and more powerful in small numbers) composition of zealot/ht/archon.
Zerg has this option in expanding, putting up spines and turtling to higher tech broodlords, ultralisks, corrupters, and infestors.
Terran... umm...
Nope.
Terran high tech units for each tech path are Battlecruiser, Thor and Ghost for air/mech/bio respectively, the ghost being nerfed into the ground has already had a massive impact on TvP and TvZ lategame compositions, but the battlecruiser and thor are not even viable.
In Korea, the metagame has switched away from mutalisk style harassment towards infestor roach compositions (although some players are switching back to mutalisks now that some Terrans are making builds to counter infestor/roach). This has made Thor play in TvZ essentially a waste of time, as the only unit Thors counter is mutalisk (and if you say banelings I'll slap you), which can be controlled VERY easily to take little to no damage.
Battlecruisers are in a similar position in the metagame; the only matchup they are regularly seen in is TvT... The reasons for this is because each race has a HARD counter to the Terran late-game units. (HT/Corrupter against BCs, and Zergling/Infestor/Broodlord/Colossus/Immortal... meh, forget it, this unit is trash) The only viable, cost effective units for Terran are all T1/2 units, which is horribly boring to watch as a spectator, because although there maybe a lot of action, one race is actually building up to get somewhere, while the other is just trying to kill them all game long (essentially the definition of an all-in) or get wiped up late-game.
Blizzard needs to fix MMM, and they need to make other options more viably cost-effective, at least so that we see it a few times at high level play that isn't a total cheese/all-in.
And to any Protoss fanboys who are comfortably shitting on Terrans on ladder and trying to instigate some reaction in this thread, think for a second... use your brains. Is TvP REALLY balanced? Is it? Until you can answer that question honestly and actually believe it, restrain yourselves from trying to comment, or at least make it more constructive than saying things like: "MAEK RAVENS, THEY GUUD"...
Terran has a hard-counter to each P and Z late-game units as well... It's a game of cat and mouse in the late game. Who can get a feedback or EMP off? Will the ghost Snipe the HT? Can he control his vikigns to snipe the Colossi? It's not EAUHEAHURR GO PROTOSS ARMY ^_^ as you would like to seem. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I feel like I have to micro more vs T than any other MU.
Blizzard says T has an advantage in the early-mid game, but I rarely see any T's actually using this. I've seemed to figure it out that if I can survive pass the 15 minute mark, I am in a good position. Learn how to multi-drop and control your army better, and equal the playing field in the late-game, instead of crying that you have to actually get better.
I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote: Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
1) No. It's not. Maxed Mech army is extremely immobile and is susceptible to flanks/good spell usage. Good Swarms for instance pretty much murder Mech based armies.
2) You haven't been keeping up lately, because every time I see a T try to run a 3/4 base Doom push vs P now adays in Proleague play they get absolutely massacred by Arbiter/Templar play.
actually it is, if we are talking about a psi limit mech in BW(and also work in SC2 T&T), with let's say 30 tank and 30 liath, u have basically won, nothing p and z can do, even dark swarm can't do nothing...
Shit like this blows my mind. People talking about stuff they have no idea about.
Look at around 19 minutes. Flash has a contain setup on Bisu and has pretty good position, but Bisu literally just a-move clicks his way through the whole entire fucking army with just pure Zealot/Goon. This has been occurring on a regularly basis lately, and alot of Terrans in BW pro play are having some trouble with the Arbiter based play that alot of P players are regularly starting to use now (most of the Carrier play has been phased out since the advent of Double Armory Goliaths).
This whole nonsense that a pure mech army was unstoppable in BW is a load of bullshit. There's a reason why Terran almost always tries to attack/kill P or Z in the midgame with a big timing attack. They do so because if they allow P or Z to grab Defiler/Arbiter/etc. tech uninhibited, they are gonna have a really fucking tough time. Yes, Terran had more tools in the late game, but this whole "nostalgic" bullshit that people are talking about how Terran could go even late game vs maxed out P/Z armies is a whole load of nonsense, especially considering P/Z could outmacro you in BW insanely hard and were able to chip away at the Mech army np on your side of the map until you reached their side.
Even with a MAXED 200/200 Mech army, you had to be EXTREMELY careful, because one fucking mistake means you lose, period. The game I just posted just proved that even with good positioning you can still get crushed by pure Zealot/Dragoon, let alone shit like Ultra/Defilers, Zealot/HT/Goon/Arbiters.
have you read what i have written? I have written 30 Tank and 30 Liath, that I have not seen in that video and for SC2 is the same, psi limit T&T(Thor Tank) is unstoppable, with no air
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
I'm telling you it works. Try it out in a UMS or something. It really really works.
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
I'm telling you it works. Try it out in a UMS or something. It really really works.
I think his point is that if your opponent lets you get 30 ghosts in a real game, he's already doing something wrong...
On May 07 2012 02:40 zLMonumental wrote: It's important to read Blizzard's comment before actually posting in this thread; it doesn't look like many people are doing this. They say nothing even remotely suggesting that Terran has a weak lategame vs Protoss. They simply say that Terran prefers to achieve an endgame state with more aggressive play while Protoss prefers to achieve it with passive play. If this is a problem, we ought to create a new thread about PvZ, because this 'problem" is considerably more pronounced in that matchup. That doesn't mean lategame in PvZ (or TvP) is imbalanced, it simply means that the races play in different ways.
"...depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win." Blizzard has said themselves that neither race has a lategame advantage in the matchup, so all these comments along the lines of "Blizzard thinks its ok that T is weaker lategame" are complete nonsense.
If the design of the matchup is a problem - and indeed, the number of pros and players from both sides who are upset with lategame suggest that there may be a problem - then it warrants further discussion, but keep the lategame balance discussion out of it.
This is precisely why Blizzard does not communicate with the community more. When they do issue a statement on something, almost nobody actually reads it. Instead, they just put words in Blizzard's mouth ("T is weak lategame!"), then complain about it.
More or less, this.
Also, it would be very hard for Blizzard to balance the lategame without unbalancing the overall matchup, or breaking other matchups and/or radically altering TvT. So it is what it is. Live with it and come up with anti-Turtle Toss Technology.
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
I'm telling you it works. Try it out in a UMS or something. It really really works.
No, it doesn't, and it's clear you don't play Sc2 at a high enough level to know what works and what doesn't...
For instance, has the whole theme of the thread slipped by you? The theme is that TvP, Terran HAS to win before lategame, as there is no other option, due to having a very poor late-game army composition, that focuses on trying to engage small groups of enemies or harassing, any smart protoss will just a-move your base and flat-out kill you rather than try to defend the drops.
The idea might have been plausible once, maybe when ghost hadn't been nerfed to smithereens.
On May 07 2012 07:30 ZeroTalent wrote: Also, it would be very hard for Blizzard to balance the lategame without unbalancing the overall matchup, or breaking other matchups and/or radically altering TvT. So it is what it is. Live with it and come up with anti-Turtle Toss Technology.
it doesnt matter if TvT is altered because it's a mirror matchup and thus skill-only.
This thread is worse than hearing people argue morality in Desinty's racial comment thread, at least that one was closed... Sea of low league players quarreling. I'm done posting here, it's not discussing balance, it's crying because X forgot a supply depo or Y forgot probe production. This is the community we all share, shucks.
On May 07 2012 07:44 MerdaPura wrote: Terran uses marines and marauders all game long... t1 units versus t3 spells and units, of course they are meant to lose.
Well it looks like you've figure it all out. Just make thors everyone. Game solved.
I hate when people say that T has the advantage midgame, because it's nowhere near as huge as the advantage toss has lategame. Drops are shut down pretty easily by a good toss, they'll keep the stalkers in the main base and then his sentries/zealots at the natural so multipronged attacks don't work.
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
Crazy? Or just insanely smart?
He might be on to something. I tried something similar with Toss. I found that once I replaced all my Stalkers with Collosus I was winnar
On May 07 2012 07:44 MerdaPura wrote: Terran uses marines and marauders all game long... t1 units versus t3 spells and units, of course they are meant to lose.
....
Yeah, totally. These Terran players insisting on using all their t1 units when they have so many good t3 shit.
On May 07 2012 05:46 Talack wrote: I've found that replacing all your marines in your army with ghosts instead (i.e: like 30+ of them) combined with vikings for a collosus switch or support. + marauder/medivac "will" beat down most protoss compositions.
If you completely remove marines from your army in the later stages of the game, your ghosts will chew through those zealots.
Toss in some cloaking and observer sniping and this is quite formidable.
Not perfect, not quite "toss deathball a-move" good. But it works ALOT better than the standard MMM + vg.
You must be high. That's like telling toss to replace all their zealots with high-templar, except twice as crazy.
Crazy? Or just insanely smart?
He might be on to something. I tried something similar with Toss. I found that once I replaced all my Stalkers with Collosus I was winnar
Mass Ghost work against mass lots coz they deal extra damage to light.
You're completely screwed if the toss catches on and alters his comp though. Coz you'll be flat broke.
EPT
