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It's important to read Blizzard's comment before actually posting in this thread; it doesn't look like many people are doing this. They say nothing even remotely suggesting that Terran has a weak lategame vs Protoss. They simply say that Terran prefers to achieve an endgame state with more aggressive play while Protoss prefers to achieve it with passive play. If this is a problem, we ought to create a new thread about PvZ, because this 'problem" is considerably more pronounced in that matchup. That doesn't mean lategame in PvZ (or TvP) is imbalanced, it simply means that the races play in different ways.
"...depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win." Blizzard has said themselves that neither race has a lategame advantage in the matchup, so all these comments along the lines of "Blizzard thinks its ok that T is weaker lategame" are complete nonsense.
If the design of the matchup is a problem - and indeed, the number of pros and players from both sides who are upset with lategame suggest that there may be a problem - then it warrants further discussion, but keep the lategame balance discussion out of it.
This is precisely why Blizzard does not communicate with the community more. When they do issue a statement on something, almost nobody actually reads it. Instead, they just put words in Blizzard's mouth ("T is weak lategame!"), then complain about it.
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On May 07 2012 02:40 zLMonumental wrote:
It's important to read Blizzard's comment before actually posting in this thread; it doesn't look like many people are doing this. They say nothing even remotely suggesting that Terran has a weak lategame vs Protoss. They simply say that Terran prefers to achieve an endgame state with more aggressive play while Protoss prefers to achieve it with passive play. If this is a problem, we ought to create a new thread about PvZ, because this 'problem" is considerably more pronounced in that matchup. That doesn't mean lategame in PvZ (or TvP) is imbalanced, it simply means that the races play in different ways.
"...depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win." Blizzard has said themselves that neither race has a lategame advantage in the matchup, so all these comments along the lines of "Blizzard thinks its ok that T is weaker lategame" are complete nonsense.
If the design of the matchup is a problem - and indeed, the number of pros and players from both sides who are upset with lategame suggest that there may be a problem - then it warrants further discussion, but keep the lategame balance discussion out of it.
This is precisely why Blizzard does not communicate with the community more. When they do issue a statement on something, almost nobody actually reads it. Instead, they just put words in Blizzard's mouth ("T is weak lategame!"), then complain about it.
It's not about preferation or anything. They say that Terran should damage Protoss in the Early/Midgame, because "if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage".
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On May 07 2012 02:30 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
The main problem I have with Blizzard's reasoning (besides the difficulty of doing good damage in the mid-game because it's all so ridiculously predictable, and besides the fact that Protoss can be much much more powerful than Terran in the mid-game if they so desire) is that even if I do good damage at, say, 10-12 minutes with Medivac pressure, and this gives me an advantage going into the "late game" at say 16-20 minutes, if I don't kill them during this relatively early "late- game" period the damage done becomes completely irrelevant from 20 to infinity minutes. Doing a bit of damage at 11 minutes doesn't give you a sustainable lead for the next 30.
Nice theorycraft based on 2 specific games you played in diamond or something.
Blizzard tells you you need to use your midgame advantage, countering by saying you don't feel like doing that or that you're not capable of doing it well enough just reflects on your own skill, and when protoss is "much more powerful" midgame they're doing a massive all in and terran did something stupid like 3 CC's vs a 1 base all in or felt too confident to place bunkers, much like some recent games of MKP, if you hold of the attack well though, the toss is as good as dead.
Much like a 1-1-1 but far easier to hold.
If you are incapable of doing harass with terran and actually doing some significant damage, you just need better tactics with your harass, better hellion micro, bio drop priorities, there should be more then enough pro player youtube vids that help you here, but just blindly buffing terran is stupid.
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On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks.
Wait what?
What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed.
There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost.
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On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost.
Terrans DO NOT forget for ghosts. They simply cannot afford them properly without a 3rd base. Polt and MKP doesn't make any ghost before their 3rd base. Ghosts doesn't worth anything without a huge bio army behind them, because just simply, EMP DO NOT KILL !!
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On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost.
you don't get it, do you?
If a ghosts casts an emp on the protoss army, it's nice. But when a storm is casted on a big clump of units, it has way more impact. Do you know why protoss players don't split up their armys so emps don't hit too many units at once? Because they don't really care! Because they go through the terran force no matter how many EMPs are casted. If EMPs would mean such a big deal in those fights on the fighting units, protoss players would be pretty dumb to not minimize this damage!
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On May 07 2012 02:46 Scootaloo wrote:
Nice theorycraft based on 2 specific games you played in diamond or something.
a) Don't be an idiot.
On May 07 2012 02:46 Scootaloo wrote:
Blizzard tells you you need to use your midgame advantage, countering by saying you don't feel like doing that or that you're not capable of doing it well enough just reflects on your own skill, and when protoss is "much more powerful" midgame they're doing a massive all in and terran did something stupid like 3 CC's vs a 1 base all in or felt too confident to place bunkers, much like some recent games of MKP, if you hold of the attack well though, the toss is as good as dead.
Much like a 1-1-1 but far easier to hold.
If you are incapable of doing harass with terran and actually doing some significant damage, you just need better tactics with your harass, better hellion micro, bio drop priorities, there should be more then enough pro player youtube vids that help you here, but just blindly buffing terran is stupid.
b) completely missed my point.
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people whining way too hard about possible issues make it really easy to just ignore this thing.
the only firm thing you can say right now, and anyone who has been playing T since launch should have learned this language already, is Terran is having difficulty with Protoss in the lategame when they don't go into it with a significant advantage... and also sometimes when they do. (edit - what I mean by learning the language is saying things like 'having difficulty' vs. saying it's imbalanced)
anyone talking about it being a real balance issue or saying "just nerf/buff THIS" like they know the answer are being incredibly naive.
anyone saying "just do xyz" is also being foolish but at least coming from a more positive place.
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On May 07 2012 03:00 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. you don't get it, do you? If a ghosts casts an emp on the protoss army, it's nice. But when a storm is casted on a big clump of units, it has way more impact. Do you know why protoss players don't split up their armys so emps don't hit too many units at once? Because they don't really care! Because they go through the terran force no matter how many EMPs are casted. If EMPs would mean such a big deal in those fights on the fighting units, protoss players would be pretty dumb to not minimize this damage!
If the whole army gets EMPed, the P is dead. Don't be ridiculous! P normally sacrifice a few units the avoid a fight, when their whole army has no more shields. Bio is not beatable without aoe damage.
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On May 07 2012 02:59 Alaiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. Terrans DO NOT forget for ghosts. They simply cannot afford them properly without a 3rd base. Polt and MKP doesn't make any ghost before their 3rd base. Ghosts doesn't worth anything without a huge bio army behind them, because just simply, EMP DO NOT KILL !!
Alaiz, thats far from the problem in TvP. Ghosts and HT aren't the problem (if there is any at all).
I think its just that protoss is much more forgiving when it comes to not extremely high level play.
High templars have been perfectly fine since the amulet removal. (which was completely broken).
If you can't get ghosts by the time he has high templar that means your either a worse player than your opponent with lack of scout and proper response. Or, your too behind because of something in early game. In which case it's far from a balance problem.
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On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost.
You can give me vessels and remove the ghost any day, brohan.
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On May 07 2012 03:34 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. You can give me vessels and remove the ghost any day, brohan.
to break TvP in P's favour? no ty
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On May 07 2012 02:59 Alaiz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. Terrans DO NOT forget for ghosts. They simply cannot afford them properly without a 3rd base. Polt and MKP doesn't make any ghost before their 3rd base. Ghosts doesn't worth anything without a huge bio army behind them, because just simply, EMP DO NOT KILL !!
And how many times are protoss knocking down your front door with HT's off 2 base? We need a third base as well..
On May 07 2012 03:00 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. you don't get it, do you? If a ghosts casts an emp on the protoss army, it's nice. But when a storm is casted on a big clump of units, it has way more impact. Do you know why protoss players don't split up their armys so emps don't hit too many units at once? Because they don't really care! Because they go through the terran force no matter how many EMPs are casted. If EMPs would mean such a big deal in those fights on the fighting units, protoss players would be pretty dumb to not minimize this damage!
I don't know who you are watching, but if they aren't slitting their army from EMP's, they are bad...
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On May 07 2012 03:34 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 02:50 Scootaloo wrote:On May 07 2012 02:37 djdnt wrote:
All Blizzard has to do is fix the HT and be done with this problem, but obviously they dont care what the community thinks, so lets get over it, life sucks. Wait what? What is there to fix? That terrans sometimes forget ghosts? You have a spellcaster that can murder a HT at more range, while being invisible and having scans, if anything ghost should get nerfed. There's good reasons the EMP used to be on the science vessel in BW, not the ghost. You can give me vessels and remove the ghost any day, brohan.
Yeah, the hardest thing for toss to deal with is ghosts. They are neither light nor armored, so nothing kills them quickly. They have more range than anything toss uses. They cloak! And they have a 20 damage to light attack that 3 shots observers, the only mobile detection for toss. Plus they require only a 40sec build time ghost academy available right after barracks to be produced.
I also would love for the science vessel to come back. High tech, slow producing unit that needed to research a dodgeable EMP and could not cloak. You could even bring back EMP taking away all shields. Too bad Blizzard will never do it.
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Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
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On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote:
Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P.
Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW.
Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
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On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote:
Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent.
Well if there are only chargelots, bunkers and SCVs to repair will do the trick. Maybe if terrans want to beat chargelots while sticking solely to bio, they should bunker up and repair, instead of kiting away. We know that toss doesn't have the gas to spend on sentries in the lategame, so there's nothing to stop the repair. And since EMP and snipe outrange storm, you can prevent that as well. And since vikings outrange colossi, you are good there too.
So instead of killing off extra SCVs in the mid/late game, terrans can bring them with their army.
There's a reason bunkers have salvage! They are meant to be used for pushing forward or stepping back slowly, always keeping you in an entrenched position.
Dang, I know this is theory crafting, but it sounds so fun! And then people will start using that building armor upgrade to make it even harder to break with zealots, and the other one to give bunkers 6 slots. (That's still in the game right?) I think bunkers could be an interesting addition since they increase the beefiness of late game bio.
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On May 07 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote:
Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent. Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P. Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW. Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
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On May 07 2012 04:29 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote:
Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent. Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P. Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW. Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes. A maxed Terran mech army is almost unbeatable for either P or Z in BW, what are you talking about?
1) No. It's not. Maxed Mech army is extremely immobile and is susceptible to flanks/good spell usage. Good Swarms for instance pretty much murder Mech based armies.
2) You haven't been keeping up lately, because every time I see a T try to run a 3/4 base Doom push vs P now adays in Proleague play they get absolutely massacred by Arbiter/Templar play.
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On May 07 2012 04:25 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 04:00 zmansman17 wrote:
Actually Terrans do use Ghosts, hit perfect EMPs and still get decimated.
Exhibit A: Supernova v. Hero. Supernova had 3 tanks seiged in position, 3 bunker filled with units, stim, +1 and shields, 2 medivacs, 3 ghosts. Blanketed all of Hero's units. Supernova had better upgrades.
And somehow Hero's chargelots obliterated the position.
Please do not conflate necessity and sufficiency.
It is not sufficient to win TvP to land perfect EMPs.
However, it is a necessary condition to land perfect EMPs to win TvP. i.e. It is one of many things that you must do, only to have the requisite chance to win.
TvP is in a very sad state of affairs passed 20 minutes. Rank 1 Master here and I have only won a single TvP passed 20 minutes all season. And of my other Top master, GM Terran friends, have similar win rates (as tallied on sc2 gears) passed this time. It's just too easy for Protoss players to dump minerals into warpgate and warp in chargelots during/after a battle.
Oddly enough from watching my replays, Protoss is the only race at the GM level where the players consistently (yes, gm players) get away with 1 hotkey and nearly half the apm of their opponent. Sounds oddly familiar to Idra's whine in BW about how Terran vs Protoss was almost impossible late game due to Arbiter/Templar/Carrier tech + faster build times on Zeals/Goons versus Tanks which were a requirement to win in late game vs P. Seriously, the amount of bullshit I'm reading in this thread makes me laugh. Please go back to BW and don't attack a Z or P for about 20 minutes and let them macro up and see if you stand a chance. Let them get Defiler/Ultra/HT/Arbiter/etc. tech for free. Same shit will happen, and you'll probably cry about how Terran late game is underpowered in BW. Do I think Terran could use a buff late game? Yes. Do I think that people are starting to spout nonsensical bullshit in this thread (such as how Terran could go toe to toe with P or Z late game in BW)? Yes.
I honestly don't know where you get this idea that Terran's are letting Protoss' get some massive army with no pressure applied at at. I see that standard 3 rax two medivac push a lot and it really comes down to the Protoss making a mistake. No mistake.....terran has no advantage.
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EPT
