EPTUh, Thors are very good against colosi and with armor upgrades can tank a lot of damage from chargelots while the other terran units evaporate them
TvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 57
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
Uh, Thors are very good against colosi and with armor upgrades can tank a lot of damage from chargelots while the other terran units evaporate them | ||
|
xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:16 b3n3tt3 wrote: Blizzard statement tldr: "learn to play terran kids, we know toss is OP so just gg out of the game if it comes to 16 mins" ^^^^ Exactly. You are practically forced to GG as Terran by the 20 to 25 minute mark. That's why the design is so bad. | ||
|
psychotics
United States184 Posts
On May 06 2012 22:57 xelnaga_empire wrote: ^^^^ Exactly. You are practically forced to GG as Terran by the 20 to 25 minute mark. That's why the design is so bad. statements like this are soo pointless and are the reason that you will never improve as a player. To quote a famous and wise person "that is why you failed" | ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:01 psychotics wrote: statements like this are soo pointless and are the reason that you will never improve as a player. To quote a famous and wise person "that is why you failed" A lot of people ( mostly protoss probably ) come in here and complain about terrans balance whine... Now, I remember hearing a lot of complaints from protoss about the very same matchup like a year ago or something. And that whine kinda payed off , didn't it. Most terrans posting here don't even address the balance issue. What most of us say is that the matchup might be balanced if you look purely at win-rates, but that those might be a poor indicators of balance. There are other aspects to it. The balance might be very thin or fragile for some reason. There might also be a skew in the win-rate as a function of game length. Consider the mirror matchups. All of them are "balanced" , right ? Still, many players with me argue that TvT is the mirror-matchup that is the most stable, i.e. there is room for a large variety of playstyles and openers. You can fast expand , go for tech or make a lot of units and pressure. The defender has a proper defenders advantage. Compare ZvZ where you can't stop a bunch of lings running up the ramp into your main in the early game. Then we have PvP. Every time i watch a cast of PvP I hear the commentator talk about how this matchup has developed far beyond the 4-gate vs 4-gate wars every game. But more often than not I see one player going for the 4-gate while the other one does something else, only to loose the game. FXOz games vs Squirtle also made me lol. The news of a fast expand build excited the casters. But then FXOz lost badly cos of it , lol. So balanced doesn't mean varied gameplay and it doesn't imply good design. This is what we complain about. The matchup is considered broken, not necessarily imbalanced. Ppl are so quick to attack terrans of this opinion with accusations of "balance whine". Playing better is not gonna change the fact that the game is poorly designed. | ||
|
sharky246
1197 Posts
| ||
|
BrandFilt
Sweden57 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:39 sharky246 wrote: 1 race is good in the early and mid game, the other is only good at late game. Doesn't that make the race thats good in early and mid more OP than the race thats just good at late game? Just good in late game? Really? Late game can last forever, while early and midgame rarly does. And that Terran should be so good ealy and mid game is not something I've felt ever. I fast expand and is terrified that any all-in is coming, then when I have medivacs and am comfortable to move out they have collosi which make me go back to my base again thinking... FML. | ||
|
one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 06 2012 23:39 sharky246 wrote: 1 race is good in the early and mid game, the other is only good at late game. Doesn't that make the race thats good in early and mid more OP than the race thats just good at late game? Read what I just wrote above. What you are describing is just bad game design. | ||
|
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I mean give me a break, in BW it is exactly the same only with reversed roles. Protoss has to outexpand terran and keep them occupied by doing whatever (DT, reaver comes to mind) before the huge tank-push starts creeping towards you. Right now it feels like many terrans don't even try to inflict some damage during midgame any more and let protoss take a fast third without doing anything about it. I've seen Kas doing a very cool no gas expo into cloak banshees when he detects that no 6 gate all-in is coming. And we've all seen 2/2/2 play out successfully as well - 2/2/2 hasn't been fully expored in the slightes, many players still use it as 1/1/1 with an expo when it could be so much more....like forcing toss into a certain reaction that establishes a window where terran can get a 3rd while toss can't. We've seen this work on the highest level, so I'm curious why there's so little innovation in this regard. | ||
|
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:11 sleepingdog wrote: The funny thing is, all the people QQing right now were perfectly, like 100% OK with this concept in...yes...broodwar. I mean give me a break, in BW it is exactly the same only with reversed roles. Protoss has to outexpand terran and keep them occupied by doing whatever (DT, reaver comes to mind) before the huge tank-push starts creeping towards you. Right now it feels like many terrans don't even try to inflict some damage during midgame any more and let protoss take a fast third without doing anything about it. I've seen Kas doing a very cool no gas expo into cloak banshees when he detects that no 6 gate all-in is coming. And we've all seen 2/2/2 play out successfully as well - 2/2/2 hasn't been fully expored in the slightes, many players still use it as 1/1/1 with an expo when it could be so much more....like forcing toss into a certain reaction that establishes a window where terran can get a 3rd while toss can't. We've seen this work on the highest level, so I'm curious why there's so little innovation in this regard. You can't compare this to how it is in BW. In BW you have to expand very aggressive in PvT yes, just like you do in SC2 TvT bio vs mech. But the catch is, in BW PvT and SC2 TvT your superior economy and production actually makes a difference while in SC2 PvT it doesn't because Warpgates takes away any defenders advantage there is and your production means jack shit when you never get the chance to reinforce again. | ||
|
theacox
United States38 Posts
A match-up looks balanced "to me" when you have a range of successes. Most do alright some terrible and some amazing. TVP looks to be this type of match-up. MKP and Parting both do exceptionally well at playing a TVP management game. Other people have just not figured out how to play their own style effectively. Do you understand how difficult what parting does is? Or MKP? There are so many deep strategic decisions these players make based on subtle scouting that the vast majority of players miss. So stop complaining about balance until you actually understand the game at that level. The point is Starcraft is a flexible game. Did you see liquid hero do 4 gate but continue making probes once he saw it wouldn't kill the opponent? He ran up the ramp killed SCV's and retreated to an expand. And guess what, he won that game. Sure his opponent made mistakes in reading him, But that's to be expected. As long as players are making mistakes in scouting/decisions we have to question any judgement on balance. And if they make no mistakes in that category. Maybe there is a better strategy we just haven't discovered yet. Or possibly with better mechanics he could have simply had more stuff, or more effective micro. Even the best Korean pros don't have "perfect" mechanics. Ultimately this is why any judgement on balance is so complicated and difficult to measure. For a period of time Terrans won everything. They still do very well in tournaments. My point is stop looking to balance to fix the problems with you play and look to yourself. The game is probably imbalanced in a number of places; but not in any grand scale. What I would like to see is design questions. Do you like the way this unit influences the meta-game? I think the colossus should be removed, and replaced with a more interesting unit. I think it shows some design flaws and causes simplistic outcomes. What units do you think detract from the potential of the game and why? That discussion is much more profitable then overall balance because it removes player skill and just talks about design. | ||
|
Torra
Norway469 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:11 sleepingdog wrote: The funny thing is, all the people QQing right now were perfectly, like 100% OK with this concept in...yes...broodwar. I mean give me a break, in BW it is exactly the same only with reversed roles. Protoss has to outexpand terran and keep them occupied by doing whatever (DT, reaver comes to mind) before the huge tank-push starts creeping towards you. Right now it feels like many terrans don't even try to inflict some damage during midgame any more and let protoss take a fast third without doing anything about it. I've seen Kas doing a very cool no gas expo into cloak banshees when he detects that no 6 gate all-in is coming. And we've all seen 2/2/2 play out successfully as well - 2/2/2 hasn't been fully expored in the slightes, many players still use it as 1/1/1 with an expo when it could be so much more....like forcing toss into a certain reaction that establishes a window where terran can get a 3rd while toss can't. We've seen this work on the highest level, so I'm curious why there's so little innovation in this regard. Protoss in sc2 is A LOT more mobile than BW mech. | ||
|
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:20 Gosi wrote: You can't compare this to how it is in BW. In BW you have to expand very aggressive in PvT yes, just like you do in SC2 TvT bio vs mech. But the catch is, in BW PvT and SC2 TvT your superior economy and production actually makes a difference while in SC2 PvT it doesn't because Warpgates takes away any defenders advantage there is and your production means jack shit when you never get the chance to reinforce again. I realize that! My point is, that people are critizing something that was a lot "worse" in BW. I'll try again: people here claim that it's a bad thing when there's some kind of "assymetric" balance. But the "assymetry" was much more prevalent in BW. So, if there are balance issues they are definitely not caused by assymetric balance. And assymetric balance definitely isn't a bad thing in general at all. That's all I wanted to say. It very well might be that terran has too few options in midgame compared to toss defense - but then that's not a problem with bad overall design but with individual balance. | ||
|
geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
Then in the late game, Colossi, Zealot, High Templars, and Archons = most "imba" deathball in the game. More so than Broodlord + infestor and Terran mech or Marine tank. Colossi has 9 range and pretty much anything that attempts to get near the colossi, it gets melted away. Then if you do get close enough, the Archons just tank that damage and Zealots will rip you apart. | ||
|
sagdashin
Norway45 Posts
I just find it stupid unbalanced when you're forced to go one path as Terran, whilst as Toss you can choose at least to be the defender or attacker. | ||
|
l3iRdMaN
United States72 Posts
| ||
|
Fig
United States1324 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:48 sagdashin wrote: What advantage early- and midgame? Protoss have a lot of early aggression timing pushes at their disposal, take 6 gate, or even worse 5 gate robo immortal bust as an example. They're almost impossible to hold for the average Terran, let alone punish it. I just find it stupid unbalanced when you're forced to go one path as Terran, whilst as Toss you can choose at least to be the defender or attacker. You can choose to be the defender in TvP if you want. No one is stopping you. If you do though, you will have to make sure you get vikings and ghosts (Both of them) to deal with colossi and HTs/archons. If terrans try to do damage, they will hurt the economy of protoss and slow down the protoss tech, so they can be later with their vikings and ghosts. A harassment strategy where the terran does a bit of both is what the best terrans are doing right now. The same decisions are made by a toss. If they sit back they have to prepare to defend on multiple fronts. This allows terran to have advantageous small skirmishes across the toss bases. Therefore many tosses decide to attack to reduce the number of terran units in order to reduce the number of prongs the terran can use to strike back, since toss has an easier time with ball vs ball fights. These are the decisions that need to be made every game, and depend greatly on how your opponent is playing as well. It is too simplistic to say that terrans need to win early, or that tosses can only win late game. | ||
|
Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:48 sagdashin wrote: What advantage early- and midgame? Protoss have a lot of early aggression timing pushes at their disposal, take 6 gate, or even worse 5 gate robo immortal bust as an example. They're almost impossible to hold for the average Terran, let alone punish it. I just find it stupid unbalanced when you're forced to go one path as Terran, whilst as Toss you can choose at least to be the defender or attacker. Well when people talk about midgame advantage, I believe they are mostly thinking about when medivacs pop out(I mean 2 rax does have early game advantage, but seeing how shitty your econ is, it's not really an advantage seeing as it's a pressure build). I will say though, that the "advantage" terran players have, is exaggerated a lot. Infact I'd say the lack of scouting the toss can do(without going allin/heavy pressure) before obs is the biggest advantage terran has, rather than a 30-60s medivac window. But when you go into "when the toss can choose to be defender or attacker", well the terran can do too in a similar fashion. Personally I do think a lot of people also underestimate how scary toss allins can actually be, when you FE as terran(be it a 1 or 2 base allin from toss). | ||
|
Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:48 sagdashin wrote: What advantage early- and midgame? Protoss have a lot of early aggression timing pushes at their disposal, take 6 gate, or even worse 5 gate robo immortal bust as an example. They're almost impossible to hold for the average Terran, let alone punish it. I just find it stupid unbalanced when you're forced to go one path as Terran, whilst as Toss you can choose at least to be the defender or attacker. These are all-ins... Terran can play standard and harass Protoss quite effectively. Even then, solid Terrans can win macro games against Protoss even if they come out even, despite what people on here think. Hell, just last night MC and Polt showed possibly the most interesting PvT I've ever seen in game 1 of the IPL Fight Club. | ||
|
darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
| ||
|
Applesqt
United States206 Posts
On May 07 2012 00:11 sleepingdog wrote: The funny thing is, all the people QQing right now were perfectly, like 100% OK with this concept in...yes...broodwar. I mean give me a break, in BW it is exactly the same only with reversed roles. Protoss has to outexpand terran and keep them occupied by doing whatever (DT, reaver comes to mind) before the huge tank-push starts creeping towards you. Right now it feels like many terrans don't even try to inflict some damage during midgame any more and let protoss take a fast third without doing anything about it. I've seen Kas doing a very cool no gas expo into cloak banshees when he detects that no 6 gate all-in is coming. And we've all seen 2/2/2 play out successfully as well - 2/2/2 hasn't been fully expored in the slightes, many players still use it as 1/1/1 with an expo when it could be so much more....like forcing toss into a certain reaction that establishes a window where terran can get a 3rd while toss can't. We've seen this work on the highest level, so I'm curious why there's so little innovation in this regard. Then why did terran do a 3 base all in every game in broodwar pvt? | ||
| ||
