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On May 06 2012 18:02 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 17:28 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 06 2012 16:01 qB3 ENS wrote:
I feel like terrans complaining about this should consider thepoint of view from protoss in the midgame against zerg and the trouble lower level players have been having holding stephano style max roaches. I understand that its not always the case, but with this current meta game protoss are forced to do some type harass to hold the zerg back or delay them in some way. I dont necisarrily like or agree with blizzard's stance, knowing and supporting imbalance in certain parts of the game to favor other. I find it interesting that they are forcing players to take action against other races since people are becoming aware of their own weaknesses and strengths. While this can be potentially limiting to the game i think the force of action is healthy and helps to speed up the evolution of the metagame because players are forced to find new wways to attack faster or stronger or with different strategies. sooooo yeah. If a terran takes his army and walks up to the protoss base and see's that he cannot attack and turns home, guess how much you have slowed down the toss.. You have slowed down the Protoss by however much it cost him to prepare sufficient defense to prevent your attack. Presuming that your army can defeat the Protoss's in the field (otherwise why would you be marching on his base) you have also prevented the Protoss from expanding past the defensible area around his base. You've protected your bases and denied Protoss any map control by pinning him at home. Of course, if you're sitting on two base to two or three base to three and growling at Protoss while he builds a death army, you'll naturally feel a little silly. Kinda like a Zerg squatting on three base Roach/Ling/Muta, and waiting for the three-base Protoss to finish his 200/200 and roll him.
Apparently the amount of delay that terrans impose by making the protoss have units is not enough. As I - and many others - have pointed out, the benefits of map control are insufficient to overcome the composition deficit.
I really like, how you eliminated the most part of my post in your quote, while keeping the nested quote intact. Because it points out, why you CAN slow Zerg down without engaging and you CANNOT slow protoss down in a comparable way.
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Getting rid of auto-charge would be one of the best ways to make protoss require more multi-tasking while also benefitting better players over worse. A big issue with protoss is that they can simply take five zealots from their main army and move them to another base while fighting a main battle somewhere else, and those five zealots will absolutely murder everything without any effort on the protosses part, while the terran has to micro his heart out on both fronts, while macroing, to stay even.
I don't think it solves the inherent issues of lategame TvP, but it's a step in the right direction just because it adds more control to protoss players while reducing the A-move aspect of the race.
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Removing auto charge is the best idea I have ever heard. It would require that the protoss has to increase his apm and look at his units. DK PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU ARE READING THIS DO IT!
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On May 06 2012 19:13 DooMDash wrote:
Feedback made into 75 energy might help quite a bit.
Thanks for the laugh,buddy!
Ghosts can cloack. By the way youve also got that amazing counter spell called snipe which outranges feedback and costs twice less energy. You can also cloack your ghosts. Also I guess I could mention how EMP outranges Storm and Feedback?. Did I mention you can use cloack? So you even need to have an observer to counter ghosts.
So in the end
Ghosts outranges HT
Ghosts use less energy
Ghost can cloack
And the clueless plat guys want to push the advantage of the Ghost over the High Templar even further!
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^Learn how to spell CLOAK.
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On May 05 2012 21:01 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 05 2012 18:26 Severedevil wrote:On May 05 2012 18:13 Dreamslayer wrote:
1) Terran is massing up bio force and upgrades on 2 bases in the 10 first minutes of the game.
2) He pushes up the Protoss base and he seems that he will win quite one-sidedely. There's your problem. You're trying to break a two-base Protoss instead of expand. 3) Suddenly a collosus come out and begins to deal damage.
4) The terran MUST get back to his base and mass up vikings QUICKLY.
You do not need Vikings to combat a Protoss army with a small number of Colossi, unless you're fighting at choke points. Marauders are very effective against Colossi in open terrain. What is your problem? Weren't there multiple posts that explain, why EXPANDING does NOT help? You expand to 5 bases, the protoss doesn't care and just expands to a third and has enough resources to do what he wants. He has his maxed army and he can use that easily to take a 4th if needed. Then the terran is fucked because he is in the late game and has the usual problem: - you can only win an heads-on engagement if you micro really good and catch the protoss in an unfavorable position. - you cannot use micro drops because they are easily shut down by 1 HT+cannon. - you cannot use large drops (4+ medivacs) because no matter how entrenched your army is, you cannot stand up to the maxed protoss. Protoss camps your production while being able to whittle down your drops with chargelot/archon/feedback warpins. The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over. Broodwar Protoss had a similar dynamic, but flipped around, with Protoss as the mobile party and Terran with the slow-moving death army. Five bases against three is a heavy lead that you can turn into victory, even if your army cannot defeat his in a straight-up fight. Some inherited lessons: -Fight in open space and attack from multiple angles. Duh. If you can't, then do not engage. -Trade units whenever you can. -Build a crapton of extra unit-producing structures to remax quick, and build them in different bases. -Throw units into the opponent's base whenver he moves out. -Well-placed statics and walls won't stop your opponent's army, but they will delay it, and prevent him from breaking your bases without sending the bulk of his army. -A tech switch that demands different responses will drain both of your banks, but yours can more easily afford it. Stalkers are expensive. Now, for SC2-specific stuff: -A nuclear launch on the mouth of a base (especially your natural) will keep the Protoss army from walking in, or at least greatly delay it. Four ghost academies and 300 minerals + 300 gas per minute can maintain a constant stream of nukes. - Any nuclear launch forces the Protoss to hunt for red dots, distracting him from his army no matter where you launch the nuke. A nuke dropped in some empty corner of the map is twenty seconds of confusion for the Protoss. -Banshees and Reapers are more expensive than M&M and take a lot of production time, but are quite strong for their food, especially at raiding. -Each additional orbital is four SCVs worth of mineral mining that eats no supply, which means either more income, or more supply for your army. Really, the "more $$$, weaker army" position is perfectly playable.
So what do you think will happen in BW, when Terran could expanded more easily than Protoss, and Terran mechs had higher mobility than Protoss army, even that Terran mech could "1A" and kick Protoss's ass in open area without better positioning?
That's just what happen in SC2's PvT mathup while both race switch their roles.
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I really like this triple cloack. Way better than feedbak
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On May 06 2012 19:29 Dalavita wrote:
Getting rid of auto-charge would be one of the best ways to make protoss require more multi-tasking while also benefitting better players over worse. A big issue with protoss is that they can simply take five zealots from their main army and move them to another base while fighting a main battle somewhere else, and those five zealots will absolutely murder everything without any effort on the protosses part, while the terran has to micro his heart out on both fronts, while macroing, to stay even.
I don't think it solves the inherent issues of lategame TvP, but it's a step in the right direction just because it adds more control to protoss players while reducing the A-move aspect of the race.
you guys realize that an a-moving chargelot always attacks units with priority over economy.
This means if a protoss wants to harass your economy he always has to babysit his chargelots...
if you want to deal with Chargelots, build up solid walls. I mean you can float and reposition buildings, lift up supply depots and such.
Chargelots are hard to deal with on open space obviously they are the equivalent of speed zerglings, of course you need some sieging units to keep them at bay. Thats what Protoss does in PvP when one goes chargelot archon. Put up tight walls.
Sure tanks on open field suck, but they increase so much strength if they are positioned well.
We have seen that pretty often recently, that just 1-2 tanks deny any kind of all-in that a Protoss might throw at you.
And tanks also trades very effectively in well thought out timing attacks.
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Eh removing autocharge doesnt change anything at all. Now they press C after A in your scenario. That doesnt doesnt make it harder
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On May 06 2012 19:58 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 19:29 Dalavita wrote:
Getting rid of auto-charge would be one of the best ways to make protoss require more multi-tasking while also benefitting better players over worse. A big issue with protoss is that they can simply take five zealots from their main army and move them to another base while fighting a main battle somewhere else, and those five zealots will absolutely murder everything without any effort on the protosses part, while the terran has to micro his heart out on both fronts, while macroing, to stay even.
I don't think it solves the inherent issues of lategame TvP, but it's a step in the right direction just because it adds more control to protoss players while reducing the A-move aspect of the race. you guys realize that an a-moving chargelot always attacks units with priority over economy. This means if a protoss wants to harass your economy he always has to babysit his chargelots...
Leave 2 marauders + 2 marines to that expansion and try yourself what happens with charge and without charge. If terran has to micro his ass of with those units, why doesn't protoss even have to activate charge? Overall I think removing autocast on charge could work. It would require some time for protoss players to learn how to use it properly so it would seem imbalanced at first. I don't even know why it has autocast to be honest. To lower P skillcap?
edit: I am a protoss player and i would be screwed without autocast :D I really dont understand people saying removing it would help the protoss player, that is complete bs. If you are the best P in the world then maybe, just maybe.
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On May 06 2012 20:06 Jarree wrote:
Leave 2 marauders + 2 marines to that expansion and try yourself what happens with charge and without charge. If terran has to micro his ass of with those units, why doesn't protoss even have to activate charge? Overall I think removing autocast on charge could work. It would require some time for protoss players to learn how to use it properly so it would seem imbalanced at first. I don't even know why it has autocast to be honest. To lower P skillcap?
thats odd considered i see terran dropping protoss all the time, while protoss trys too defend with MMM with chargelots and the chargelots get always stuck due to good positioning by the terran (no unit movement nor micro ), and you want to tell me you can't replicate this in your own base while you can do it in the opponets mineral line? (same happens with speedlings reduce surface area and deal insane damage because on medivac heals the front for a huge amount of time)
Having Problems with chargelots is a problem on the terran side due too bad simcity. (if it was that big of an issue get a bunker near the mineral line) and a sensor tower --> anykind of harass is nullified.
Terran is just so unused to beeing harassed by Protoss they lack awareness. This is also proven that Terrans in most cases feel safe enough from harass they skip a PF and get an additional orbital instead.
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On May 06 2012 19:59 GreyKnight wrote:
Eh removing autocharge doesnt change anything at all. Now they press C after A in your scenario. That doesnt doesnt make it harder
it does. they would have to watch their zealots like a terran needs to watch his bio army while kiting. would things even up a lot more.
normally toss woul just amove with mass zealots while warping in new rounds which would not be as easy iwhtout auto-charge.
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Quote the whole thing if you do quote at all.
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On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 17:36 Talack wrote:On May 05 2012 17:15 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm. You contributed nothing to the discussion but looking like an idiot. Bravo, you and your race are one step backwards now : / Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds.
The game was played differently if you look back. Harder to get 3rd going for protoss, natural more open and vulnerable to 2-base timings. You had to rush more to get collousus (faster to get than storm) and once you got them, getting storms aswell on 2-3 base was harder to afford. I think thats why storm wasnt that big of an issue before. Storm wasnt changed, but meta game was.
Overall, as a T, i'd love to have protoss taste abit of our world and have seperate upgrades for the robotics units. It wouldnt hurt the initial immortal busts and the first 12-15 min (with 2-3 colos) engagements all that much (colos would still deal terrible terrible dmg), but lategame could hopefully be something where P would have to pick a more clear techroute instead of going for this non-stop roulette we have now. "T is going mass mm-ball, so ill stick with massgate + storms" or maybe "T is mixing in thors/tanks, i'd better go for upgraded immortals/colos etc". Its obviously a pretty huge change and T might need some balancing aswell, but its just how id like to see the game.
Also ofcourse it would ruin PvZ, but again... just a dream 
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For all the protoss who are saying yea, leave stuff at your base? Really? Should I build a whole bunch of buildings to close it off? That is a joke, why should I have to spend a crap ton more minerals to stop chargelots, or decrease from my army, do you have to do this after the 15 min mark?
The answer is no, protoss don't charge should not be auto cast, so you would have to pay attention to your units or lose them. Its not like we are saying take charge out, keep charge please, but remove auto case, it does lower the skill cap dramatically. It would be like if stim didn't do damage and it was autocast, and everytime a protoss came near it would auto stim everything and dmg would be increased like crazy without even paying attention to your units.
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Make it so that you have the move the zealots legs individually.
After selecting the zealot:left mouse for the left leg and right mouse for the right.
Then alternate realy fast 6 times to get the charge movement
Seriously:Making charge manual cast is a terrible idea.
There are already so manny things you have to control, they should not add more silly micro mechanics.
terran has stim to control, toss has blink.
charge is just a sort of speed upgrade like speedlings, there is no need to make every single mechanic manual cast.
It will only make the game overly complicated.
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To the protoss players in this thread saying that their race is as hard to play as the terran race:
Go download a replay pack from avilo or watch some vods from his stream when he is off-racing as protoss.
He owns terran players on ladder (NA GM-level) really fucking hard.
It is not even funny how easy he makes it look.
The other day a guy accused him of map-hacking after getting completely crushed.
Guess he wasn't used to face such good protosses, lol.
He also proves that protoss has excellent harass options throughout the whole game with warp-ins from proxy pylons, warp prism drops an lategame DTs.
How many GM-level protosses would win a TvP game if they played terran?
My guess is that they would not go for a macro game...
I was so glad I saw him doing that because it proves something that I've suspected for a long time.
I never bothered to try to learn any protoss myself.
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On May 06 2012 20:26 Pwnani wrote:
For all the protoss who are saying yea, leave stuff at your base? Really? Should I build a whole bunch of buildings to close it off? That is a joke, why should I have to spend a crap ton more minerals to stop chargelots, or decrease from my army, do you have to do this after the 15 min mark?
The answer is no, protoss don't charge should not be auto cast, so you would have to pay attention to your units or lose them. Its not like we are saying take charge out, keep charge please, but remove auto case, it does lower the skill cap dramatically. It would be like if stim didn't do damage and it was autocast, and everytime a protoss came near it would auto stim everything and dmg would be increased like crazy without even paying attention to your units.
thats funny considering that is what Protoss does to deal with terran drops, cause Warpins alone are not enough to deal with drops (despite many terrans may claim that)
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On May 06 2012 20:26 Pwnani wrote:
For all the protoss who are saying yea, leave stuff at your base? Really? Should I build a whole bunch of buildings to close it off? That is a joke, why should I have to spend a crap ton more minerals to stop chargelots, or decrease from my army, do you have to do this after the 15 min mark?
Well, to be frank, it's not like you particularly need your barracks and supply depots to be in your main base, do you? Of course, using them as sim cities creates some risk due to potential harassment, but at least it should slow down chargelots; and PFs can take care of those pretty easily.
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On May 06 2012 20:36 one-one-one wrote:
To the protoss players in this thread saying that their race is as hard to play as the terran race:
Go download a replay pack from avilo or watch some vods from his stream when he is off-racing as protoss.
He owns terran players on ladder (NA GM-level) really fucking hard.
It is not even funny how easy he makes it look.
The other day a guy accused him of map-hacking after getting completely crushed.
Guess he wasn't used to face such good protosses, lol.
He also proves that protoss has excellent harass options throughout the whole game with warp-ins from proxy pylons, warp prism drops an lategame DTs.
How many GM-level protosses would win a TvP game if they played terran?
My guess is that they would not go for a macro game...
I was so glad I saw him doing that because it proves something that I've suspected for a long time.
I never bothered to try to learn any protoss myself.
We have seen MC offrace time and time again and beat very good players...don't get what you want to prove.
Again you prove my point, Terran players are not used to beeing harassed and thus lose more than they should.
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EPT
