|
On May 06 2012 11:09 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 11:03 Badfatpanda wrote:On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote:
Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club.
Many of those games reached 3+ bases.
Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame?
Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. Are you joking? Seriously every time you come into these threads it's some kind of half truth. You wanna know how it happened from someone with no point to prove? MC won game 1 when it went to late, late game. After that he tried to get 3 bases at 7minutes and a standard 2 base medivac timing was too much to defend and he lost. The next game he lost, he 2 base allin'd and would have been better off handing over his keyboard to Polt as he botched the attack horrifically. Next game DT warp prism off of 2 base GOT DESTROYED along with the DTs killing less than 10 SCVs, he spams zealots while getting double upgrades and pushes with storm after barely getting his third up to win the game. Oh yeah there was a 4 gate allin on Tal Darim in there too, oops... Polt proceeded to wreck MC after his initial blink pressure backfired as he got rolled by a medivac stim timing...still 2 base vs 2 base. Last game he picked Metropolis, opened nexus first, and Polt went for a 2 rax stim timing killing the nexus AND THEN took an expo himself. But yes 3+ bases for many games here let me be sarcastic on my high horse proving my point with irrefutable logic. Every person in the RO8 who claimed the matchup was balanced and the better player won, + Show Spoiler + What is it about that series that proved the match up is imbalanced? Polt showed the strength of terran mid game timings in two of the games and how easily the toss all-ins that people have been whining about can be stopped in another two games. Like a lot of people have been trying to say- terran's mid game strength makes up for toss's late game strength and this series showed that pretty well.
Not much, I just got upset when what he wrote was such high horse nonsense that I corrected him. I don't like to take part in these balance whine threads because I think the game is in a very good spot at the moment.
|
United States184 Posts
It seems a lot of people in this forum dont understand a very simple difference between "advantage" and "imbalance". just but cause one race has am advantage in one aspect of the game doesn't mean the game is imbalanced... If you actually read and understood what blizzard was saying in the post they said that they are ok with races having advantages in different stages AS LONG AS THEY CAN ALWAYS BE OVER COME WITH GOOD PLAY
+ Show Spoiler +StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles. We like having these differences between the races, as long as no one race or tactic offers a significant advantage. To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game. In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance. That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play.
so this mean that according to blizzard they do not feel that the late game of the match up is imbalanced at this point. Yes blizzard could be wrong, but they again stated they were keeping a close eye on the state of the game and would enact changes as/if needed
|
On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote:
Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club.
Many of those games reached 3+ bases.
Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame?
Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it.
None of the games in that series proved or disproved anything regarding balance and shouldn't be brought up in a balance discussion.
|
On May 06 2012 11:13 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 11:09 tomatriedes wrote:On May 06 2012 11:03 Badfatpanda wrote:On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote:
Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club.
Many of those games reached 3+ bases.
Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame?
Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. Are you joking? Seriously every time you come into these threads it's some kind of half truth. You wanna know how it happened from someone with no point to prove? MC won game 1 when it went to late, late game. After that he tried to get 3 bases at 7minutes and a standard 2 base medivac timing was too much to defend and he lost. The next game he lost, he 2 base allin'd and would have been better off handing over his keyboard to Polt as he botched the attack horrifically. Next game DT warp prism off of 2 base GOT DESTROYED along with the DTs killing less than 10 SCVs, he spams zealots while getting double upgrades and pushes with storm after barely getting his third up to win the game. Oh yeah there was a 4 gate allin on Tal Darim in there too, oops... Polt proceeded to wreck MC after his initial blink pressure backfired as he got rolled by a medivac stim timing...still 2 base vs 2 base. Last game he picked Metropolis, opened nexus first, and Polt went for a 2 rax stim timing killing the nexus AND THEN took an expo himself. But yes 3+ bases for many games here let me be sarcastic on my high horse proving my point with irrefutable logic. Every person in the RO8 who claimed the matchup was balanced and the better player won, + Show Spoiler + What is it about that series that proved the match up is imbalanced? Polt showed the strength of terran mid game timings in two of the games and how easily the toss all-ins that people have been whining about can be stopped in another two games. Like a lot of people have been trying to say- terran's mid game strength makes up for toss's late game strength and this series showed that pretty well. Not much, I just got upset when what he wrote was such high horse nonsense that I corrected him. I don't like to take part in these balance whine threads because I think the game is in a very good spot at the moment.
I agree with that.
|
On May 06 2012 11:13 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 11:09 tomatriedes wrote:On May 06 2012 11:03 Badfatpanda wrote:On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote:
Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club.
Many of those games reached 3+ bases.
Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame?
Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. Are you joking? Seriously every time you come into these threads it's some kind of half truth. You wanna know how it happened from someone with no point to prove? MC won game 1 when it went to late, late game. After that he tried to get 3 bases at 7minutes and a standard 2 base medivac timing was too much to defend and he lost. The next game he lost, he 2 base allin'd and would have been better off handing over his keyboard to Polt as he botched the attack horrifically. Next game DT warp prism off of 2 base GOT DESTROYED along with the DTs killing less than 10 SCVs, he spams zealots while getting double upgrades and pushes with storm after barely getting his third up to win the game. Oh yeah there was a 4 gate allin on Tal Darim in there too, oops... Polt proceeded to wreck MC after his initial blink pressure backfired as he got rolled by a medivac stim timing...still 2 base vs 2 base. Last game he picked Metropolis, opened nexus first, and Polt went for a 2 rax stim timing killing the nexus AND THEN took an expo himself. But yes 3+ bases for many games here let me be sarcastic on my high horse proving my point with irrefutable logic. Every person in the RO8 who claimed the matchup was balanced and the better player won, + Show Spoiler + What is it about that series that proved the match up is imbalanced? Polt showed the strength of terran mid game timings in two of the games and how easily the toss all-ins that people have been whining about can be stopped in another two games. Like a lot of people have been trying to say- terran's mid game strength makes up for toss's late game strength and this series showed that pretty well. Not much, I just got upset when what he wrote was such high horse nonsense that I corrected him. I don't like to take part in these balance whine threads because I think the game is in a very good spot at the moment.
"High horse nonsense" is saying that the better player wins?
Thats new to me, BTW I play T and recently switched to Z. I have no agenda in this thread. All you said in your refutal was that each game developed differently.
BTW my post was more directed to those T players that are claiming that there is a "ticking time bomb" that after it goes off T has not chance to win. Those series actually are a pretty good example of TvP. If the P puts (or is put behind by the T) during midgame the T is at an advantage. The only weird game was the 4 gate vs cloaked banshee.
Sorry if I didn't bother giving a full recap of the games but I know that regardless of what I said people will ignore it and whine
|
People do not seem to understand what it meant by if both terran & protoss take no losses. Protoss will have an advantage. Just look at how Polt Vs MC in ipl fight club "constant aggression" MC can't even have time to breath. Terran QQ about mid-game regression is easy for protoss to def than that is equivalent of saying that 10 Maruder, 20 Marine & 2 Med vs 6 zealot 3 sentry & 4 stalker, that terran will lose the fight or make no losses to the protoss. Than Terran is truly deserve to be behind the late.
TvP is so much more like PvZ, if both race take no losses and proceed into the late game than it is almost impossible for protoss to win.
|
terran and protoss should be happy that they are both stronger than zerg 
|
obviously trolling but just thought it
WAIT! you mean that Terran T1 units cant compete against protoss T3 units.
Somebody needs to put this on the keenu reeves meme. Im utterly useless with such things.
|
On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
Reason for that being is because the defiler is a game changing unit mostly with swarm and that an ultra can tank marines forever.
|
On May 04 2012 13:42 MattBarry wrote:
You know, I'm no expert on BW. I played it for a decade casually with no knowledge of a pro-scene. But from what I've read, isn't there a ticking time bomb where Terran has to do damage before Hive in TvZ. What exactly is the difference?
no actually you can fight hive tech on even footing. the magic of BW was that there were no huge hard counters and there was so much micro potential. Vessels <3
|
On May 06 2012 10:36 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote:On May 05 2012 17:36 Talack wrote:On May 05 2012 17:15 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm. You contributed nothing to the discussion but looking like an idiot. Bravo, you and your race are one step backwards now : / Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. One High Templar. 2 Clicks. 20 supply gone.
Startport. Make a fresh Medivac. Load units into Medivac. Drop. 0 supply lost.
|
On May 06 2012 12:20 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:36 S_SienZ wrote:On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote:On May 05 2012 17:36 Talack wrote:On May 05 2012 17:15 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm. You contributed nothing to the discussion but looking like an idiot. Bravo, you and your race are one step backwards now : / Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. One High Templar. 2 Clicks. 20 supply gone. Startport. Make a fresh Medivac. Load units into Medivac. Drop. 0 supply lost.
Actually, I always thought it would be cool if Terrans purposely bled a couple medivacs of energy by a-clicking on marine onto another with a medivac nearby, then using that to drop.
|
T V P late game is balanced if you are T and you can emp/snipe perfectly. If you can't micro/snipe the templars/other units, your dead. The protoss can pretty much A-move and just storm you, without having to do much micro. So it's balanced in 1 way.. but unless your good at control/snipes, your finished.
|
On May 06 2012 12:42 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 12:20 Cloud9157 wrote:On May 06 2012 10:36 S_SienZ wrote:On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote:On May 05 2012 17:36 Talack wrote:On May 05 2012 17:15 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm. You contributed nothing to the discussion but looking like an idiot. Bravo, you and your race are one step backwards now : / Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. One High Templar. 2 Clicks. 20 supply gone. Startport. Make a fresh Medivac. Load units into Medivac. Drop. 0 supply lost. Actually, I always thought it would be cool if Terrans purposely bled a couple medivacs of energy by a-clicking on marine onto another with a medivac nearby, then using that to drop.
Hell, they could even just EMP the Medivacs with Ghosts if they scout Templar tech.
|
On May 06 2012 08:56 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:43 naastyOne wrote:On May 06 2012 08:15 Filter wrote:
The matchup is fundamentally broken somewhere, and sadly I think it starts with the marine. Marines are so strong that protoss need multiple ways to deal with them... but the solutions blizzard have implemented don't allow Terran players to get creative, to use skill to get around them while the counter units come into play. If you don't have vikings for whatever reason you get slaughtered by colossus, if you have too many vikings the rest of the protoss ball destroys you AND the slow reactionary ability of Terran gets made worse by warpgate.
Get rid of the Colossus, slow the damage output of everything down and spread it out more (Make Marauders do less to stalkers, but more to Zealots for starters) and give Protoss their reavers back. Wrong. The Colossus->Reaver thing changes nothing. Marauders >Colosus, Splitting of marines and marauders>Colosus. And Colosi suck vs Thor, Tank, and Viking. Problem, though, is the immortal which counters tanks all to well, and makes the needs for something low-damage but rapid-fining in mech arsenal(i guess warhound would do good in this department). Vikings could do, but they will kill colosi from air far better, eliminating the need for tanks. HT, on the other hand, hard-counter terran T3, and air units except Viking, and (more or less)Ghost, and Bio-ball. AND unlike Colosi, you can warp in HTs, and as soon as you`re out of storms you can merge into archons. And unlike Colosi archons are not vulrnable to air, and can shoot air. Colosi are good, their substitution will give nothing, while nerfing HTs to not counter everything terran has(as it was done with Snipe countering anything Zerg has) Will make a difference. Marauders are beyond useless against Zealots, and you can't split vs. Colossus (They have concave AoE, you'd have to actually split into a line to avoid their AoE.) Marauders can't get anywhere near the Colossus unless you land a perfect flank. There's a reason Terrans have to be so marine heavy in this matchup. The fact that you can't split vs. Colossus, combined with a Templar storm is what crushes the marine ball more often than not. Trying to kite Chargelots, while storm dodging and splitting to not have a concave is impossible. You 100% need vikings to deal with Colossus and you can't fight until they're gone. Removing feedback, or removing Thor/BC energy would be a great start to bringing the matchup back to normal, even removing smartcast for templar would be cool. (Great toss players like parting would still dominate, but your average joe would have a hard time casting his storms individually.) The Colossus isn't just a bad unit in PvT, it's a bad unit in all matchups. Protoss need to go war of the worlds in PvP lategame, Zerg need masses of Corrupters in late game PvZ. Reavers would change all that, they'd be great utility units to support a gateway force, or even some air units too. I think the Immortal needs balancing too personally, nerf the supply cost/general cost and cut it's damage down a LOT (let it keep the shield though) would be pretty cool along with adding Reavers. There's just so much untapped potential in the matchups for Protoss because Colossus are so good at causing an instant win situation. You can NOT out micro a player with 3+ Colossus and a good gateway force without having the hard counter to Colossus, it's actually impossible.
Why exactly is preventing you from spliting Marauders in small groupes, so that about 1/2 or so of colosi splash damage goes to empty place? Right, nobody. Again, one just needs to stim, move in snipe colosi, move out. Maraudes can take fire way better than marines, and chargelots, well the range difference of marines, marauders, and Colosi should allow Marines be in range of chargelost but out-of range of Colosi. Then again, one may have thors, Tanks , Ravens(could very well forse splitting and Seeker-missle doging for protos, and quite easily handle mass chargelots), BCs with Yamato, to take care of Colosi, IF the HT is fixed properly, also feedback nerf hardly influences PvZ at all, so no unpleasant implications.
Then again, i fail to see difference between Reavers and Colosi(Yes, i watched BW). Both long-ranged, both outrange bio, both deal large splash, with reaver actually having much bigger alpha. In fact TvP in in BW was always mech for terran, because of Reavers&Storm. Do not kid yourself, reaver, considering it will be freaking mass reaver, not 1-2, and BW shuttle style will not work because of long-ranged AA, and Seeker Missles of terran, and Fungals, and infested terrans of Zerg, will be even more A-move than Colosi, because at least Colosi are countered by long-ranged Anti-air.
The difference between 3+reavers and 3+colosi is small to nonexistent IF HT is not fixed.
|
|
|
On May 06 2012 13:14 jameszz wrote:
T V P late game is balanced if you are T and you can emp/snipe perfectly. If you can't micro/snipe the templars/other units, your dead. The protoss can pretty much A-move and just storm you, without having to do much micro. So it's balanced in 1 way.. but unless your good at control/snipes, your finished.
Which is kinda the reason i really want to see Raven become viable(not instantly feedbacked, because seeker missile is so small-ranged), then Terran will be able to punish deathball, force Protos to split and micro, ex,ex,..
|
On May 06 2012 14:20 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 13:14 jameszz wrote:
T V P late game is balanced if you are T and you can emp/snipe perfectly. If you can't micro/snipe the templars/other units, your dead. The protoss can pretty much A-move and just storm you, without having to do much micro. So it's balanced in 1 way.. but unless your good at control/snipes, your finished. Which is kinda the reason i really want to see Raven become viable(not instantly feedbacked, because seeker missile is so small-ranged), then Terran will be able to punish deathball, force Protos to split and micro, ex,ex,..
You can already do that vs low level Protoss lol. I've seen it quite a few times too.
|
No matter how you look at the TvP match-up I feel like it's too rigid. T dominating the early-midgame and P dominating the lategame, and not enough room for things to turn around.
All of this I feel like could be changed around with some changes to the metagame though. I think the stiffness of this match-up could be altered with some variety in unit composition. Terran could try to experiment with some:
Marauder/Tank/Ghost - In theory that would fare better against the mass AoE thing, wouldn't it?
Also this might sound stupid but wouldn't the Thors and BC's fare better if Terran just EMP'd them before battle?(Just a random thought?)
Protoss could try to utilize some other compositions to try and be more effecient in the earlygame, such as:
Zealot/Phoenix/Sentry(/Stalker?) - Use the Phoenix as a disabler unit to pick up the marauders/tanks or other units which tend to shut down earlier aggresion of Protoss, this would force terran to focus fire the phoenix thus leaving them vulnerable to the gateway units. I feel like this would leave som interesting micro intesive engagements too.
Above but with Blink Stalkers instead of Zealot/Sentry might be an idea too.
I have tried all of this out on the ladder with some succes but since both my execution and my opponents are Silver/Gold level I don't feel like my results are very viable. I don't know, this after all is just theory crafting and this might not be viable in any respect at the higher levels but I still think there are plenty of unexplored parts of WoL that we need to exploit before we can call anything imba or OP.
|
The micromechanic for chargelots is a really good idea. Reverting ghosts, immortals and upgrade costs are also good ideas.
To those saying "statistically terran has been top bla bla bla" statistics can easily be skewed and taken out of context. How about terran was the top of the ladder because all the best players played terran? Blizzard balances the races based on statistics but dont take into account that the 3 races may not have an equal spread of skilled players. Look back at last year and look at the code S protosses they were protosses like hongeun, killer, trickster, san, that homersimpson dude from prime. They were mediocre players at best and apart from MC pretty much have fallen off. Inca got demolished by nestea the most one sided finals ever. So trying to balance based on statistics is just giving lesser skilled players unfair advantages. Protoss players are the slowest and their metagame has been painfully slow ( last year i was protoss and there were no good protosses to copy builds from. Ive since changed to terran and terran players are just superior in almost every sense). The balancing needs to be based off of GAME KNOWLEDGE not statistics. Poor work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
