EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 51
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
Postaljester
United States128 Posts
| ||
|
Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On May 06 2012 05:42 Postaljester wrote: if you want terran to be stronger late game, or p to be weaker, terrans mid game will have to be cut down. nerf medivacs heal rate and marauders damage a bit or something along those lines. and this will lead to Z being stronger vs T creating a new imbalance, and overall this is the main problem in my opinion as hurting P late game can be done by say buffing vikings Armour +1 or the damage they do to ground units to not punish over committing so much. the problem is weakening T early-mid game as if you buff protoss in almost anyway it will buff thier late game also as you dont really have exclusive mid game units. and nerfing T will hurt them vs zerg or make their late game weaker thus solving nothing. Hence why its likely they will say that a good win ratio is not ideal but its enough until the changes HotS will bring. | ||
|
NoobCrunch
79 Posts
| ||
|
aintz
Canada5624 Posts
| ||
|
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On May 06 2012 05:36 Shiori wrote: They can't. I'm getting sick of you ruining every single thread with your mindless QQ. Protoss can't tech without taking the proper precautions to be safe against Terran pressures. Like it or not, these pressures win a LOT of games at the pro level, and so Protoss players need to account for them. Secondly, I don't see MKP losing to terrible players in TvP very often, but by the way you make it sound, anyone who knows to 1-a should be able to beat him. Come back to reality. You lose games because you play bad, not because Protoss is OP. If you're mad about TvP in the lower leagues, then pick a different game, because this game is about eSports, not about random Plat kids who think they're micro champs. I'm masters and played random for 5 seasons before switching to Terran. I don't claim to be a high level player, but MANY high level Terrans and Random players have said the exact same shit myself and everyone else has had to repeat 1000000 times. | ||
|
nonsequitur
384 Posts
Also, their philosophy of a race having to win in the mid game is just terrible. If the only time a race can win is in the mid-game, it'll only encourage even more all-ins. After all why risk going into the late-game if you know you will be at a disadvantage? | ||
|
Shiori
3815 Posts
On May 06 2012 06:54 SupLilSon wrote: I'm masters and played random for 5 seasons before switching to Terran. I don't claim to be a high level player, but MANY high level Terrans and Random players have said the exact same shit myself and everyone else has had to repeat 1000000 times. And many people have said the exact opposite. The plural of anecdote is not data. | ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 06 2012 04:02 OneOther wrote: This is accurate. I am not sure how people equate mid-game advantage = one/two base all-in. If you sit on your ass doing nothing and letting the Protoss tech to colossus/templar, you deserve to lose. Reminds me of when al the Protoss players back in BW complained about PvZ imbalance against ultra/ling. Then players like Bisu showed you can't let the Zerg take 4 gases and drone-up. Same concept, no? This is what makes the game fun for me. At different points of the game, different races are "forced" to take the initative and be aggressive. I am glad it's difficult for both sides to just turtle and go into late game. My two cents. No, it's not at all like BW in the slightest. Because all 3 races in BW had the ability to play lategame on even terms regardless of whatever strong units there were. If it got to the defiler/vessel stages in lategame TvZ in brood war, it was not an automatic win or foregone conclusion for either side. Not in the slightest. If TvP went to lategame in brood war, it was not an automatic advantage for the Terran or Protoss. Both players had lategame options that they could utilize, and everything was essentially viable and had a counter but not such a hard counter that you were confined to only building that counter unit. In TvP SC2 the current way is that if TvP goes to lategame, Protoss literally has a huge advantage and is very forgiving. There is no "don't let them get there." Good defensive protosses nowadays always "get there" and then it starts to become an overwhelming advantage. So no, Terrans do not "deserve to lose" just because Protoss sat in their base "getting there." THat's absolutely stupid, and was not like brood war at all in the slightest. | ||
|
YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On May 06 2012 07:07 avilo wrote: No, it's not at all like BW in the slightest. Because all 3 races in BW had the ability to play lategame on even terms regardless of whatever strong units there were. If it got to the defiler/vessel stages in lategame TvZ in brood war, it was not an automatic win or foregone conclusion for either side. Not in the slightest. If TvP went to lategame in brood war, it was not an automatic advantage for the Terran or Protoss. Both players had lategame options that they could utilize, and everything was essentially viable and had a counter but not such a hard counter that you were confined to only building that counter unit. In TvP SC2 the current way is that if TvP goes to lategame, Protoss literally has a huge advantage and is very forgiving. There is no "don't let them get there." Good defensive protosses nowadays always "get there" and then it starts to become an overwhelming advantage. So no, Terrans do not "deserve to lose" just because Protoss sat in their base "getting there." THat's absolutely stupid, and was not like brood war at all in the slightest. This. Both races should be able to "get there" and then duke it out but not in a single big engagement then lose kind of way. Im getting tiresome that as a T, you HAVE to do some damage early to mid game to just stay even if the P couldn't be finished off. Its so gimmicky, T became this harassing race with no substance. Like as if designed from looking at "boxer micro highlights" vid off youtube.. | ||
|
Falconblade
United States1035 Posts
On May 06 2012 05:39 Mordanis wrote: If a P has 22 WGs, and T only wins an engagement by a little bit, P was way ahead of T. 22x15=3300 minerals, plus at least 2200 mins in bank (for the actual zealots) for a total of 5500 mins. If the army size is equal, and toss has 5500 mins dedicated solely to one big resupply, P was clearly way in the lead. I know the 22 WG was an exaggeration, but whenever toss is able to remake a bunch of reinforcements, and the battle is pretty even, P was definitely ahead. Why are you adding warp gate cost to calculations? They're accumulated over time, just as barracks might be. What if Terran had 15 barracks, some tech labs and some reactors? He still can't beat instant warp in. All I'm saying, forget the argument and balance debate that this thread is, your logic for stating that Toss is ahead is flawed. | ||
|
Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
Play PvZ, never attack/threaten the zerg at all, get crushed badly by a far superior/larger army after 12-15 minutes into the game. Threaten the zerg, harass, attack, kill the third, and you will be equal or ahead at 12-15 minutes into the game (or even outright kill him). Now it is official that even Blizzard can see the same dynamics in TvP. It definately is hard to balance, but it creates interesting gameplay and gives both sides a chance to shine and to surpass each other, as stated in the official statement. There is no need to equal everything out, as long as there are no major imbalances. oh, and i'm playing zerg, so no toss bias here  | ||
|
Filter
Canada620 Posts
Sub 10 minutes it's even, Terran has 8 wins and toss has 8 wins 10-15 Minutes Toss has an Edge Terran 17 wins, Toss 22 wins 15-20 Minutes Toss with a small Edge Terran 6, Toss 7 wins 20 Minutes+ Terran 2, Toss 1 The stats are in real time not blizzard time (Gom TV), and the situations where Terran won late game are because Protoss players blundered (Think MC showing all his sentries, and warping in pylon against Maru) not because they out macro'd. It's even worse if you look at the last two weeks, Terran has 12 wins to Protoss' 18 in sets and of those 12 wins 4 were marine/bunker rush all ins. There's also a clear dominance of Protoss players that have finally "got" the PvT matchup, Squirtle and Oz both have disastrous PvT win/loss ratios before the burst of protoss players and are now nearly unbeatable in the mu. The guy who started the current trend of heavy Templar use? Parting.. who has never lost a PvT at all outside of the team league. (Seriously, he's 9-0 vs. Terran) The stats are not a huge indicator all the time of how a matchup is performing, but from personal experience and watching a ton of tournaments anytime a Terran player tries to go late game with a protoss player who is within a level or two of his skill the Protoss player basically never loses, unless the Terran player is ultra aggressive early. I love this game, but this matchup is so clearly one sided lategame. This matchup also hinges on HARD counter units so badly that it's really frustrating. Starcraft was always about skill both in micro and macro and not in hard counters. Nearly every unit in the matchup hard counters something else, without any input from the other player. The matchup is fundamentally broken somewhere, and sadly I think it starts with the marine. Marines are so strong that protoss need multiple ways to deal with them... but the solutions blizzard have implemented don't allow Terran players to get creative, to use skill to get around them while the counter units come into play. If you don't have vikings for whatever reason you get slaughtered by colossus, if you have too many vikings the rest of the protoss ball destroys you AND the slow reactionary ability of Terran gets made worse by warpgate. Get rid of the Colossus, slow the damage output of everything down and spread it out more (Make Marauders do less to stalkers, but more to Zealots for starters) and give Protoss their reavers back. | ||
|
rd
United States2586 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:15 Filter wrote: Here's some stats from the 2012 s2 GSL Code S/Code A season. Sub 10 minutes it's even, Terran has 8 wins and toss has 8 wins 10-15 Minutes Toss has an Edge Terran 17 wins, Toss 22 wins 15-20 Minutes Toss with a small Edge Terran 6, Toss 7 wins 20 Minutes+ Terran 2, Toss 1 The stats are in real time not blizzard time (Gom TV), and the situations where Terran won late game are because Protoss players blundered (Think MC showing all his sentries, and warping in pylon against Maru) not because they out macro'd. It's even worse if you look at the last two weeks, Terran has 12 wins to Protoss' 18 in sets and of those 12 wins 4 were marine/bunker rush all ins. There's also a clear dominance of Protoss players that have finally "got" the PvT matchup, Squirtle and Oz both have disastrous PvT win/loss ratios before the burst of protoss players and are now nearly unbeatable in the mu. The guy who started the current trend of heavy Templar use? Parting.. who has never lost a PvT at all outside of the team league. (Seriously, he's 9-0 vs. Terran) The stats are not a huge indicator all the time of how a matchup is performing, but from personal experience and watching a ton of tournaments anytime a Terran player tries to go late game with a protoss player who is within a level or two of his skill the Protoss player basically never loses, unless the Terran player is ultra aggressive early. I love this game, but this matchup is so clearly one sided lategame. This matchup also hinges on HARD counter units so badly that it's really frustrating. Starcraft was always about skill both in micro and macro and not in hard counters. Nearly every unit in the matchup hard counters something else, without any input from the other player. The matchup is fundamentally broken somewhere, and sadly I think it starts with the marine. Marines are so strong that protoss need multiple ways to deal with them... but the solutions blizzard have implemented don't allow Terran players to get creative, to use skill to get around them while the counter units come into play. If you don't have vikings for whatever reason you get slaughtered by colossus, if you have too many vikings the rest of the protoss ball destroys you AND the slow reactionary ability of Terran gets made worse by warpgate. Get rid of the Colossus, slow the damage output of everything down and spread it out more (Make Marauders do less to stalkers, but more to Zealots for starters) and give Protoss their reavers back. Part of the reason why marines are so strong is because they're able to clump and all fire simultaneously. Air past early game is pretty much impossible against any decent size of marines. I wish they'd at least experiment with giving units bigger hit boxes both to mitigate splash damage and make ranged units less powerful. Reaver would be entirely viable if warp prisms couldn't be snapped in half in seconds because it wandered into stim range of a ball of marines. Air to air vs vikings would be more possible, and they wouldn't be a requirement because of colossus. | ||
|
NrG.Bamboo
United States2756 Posts
On May 06 2012 06:54 SupLilSon wrote: I'm masters and played random for 5 seasons before switching to Terran. I don't claim to be a high level player, but MANY high level Terrans and Random players have said the exact same shit myself and everyone else has had to repeat 1000000 times. Except we don't (hey, masters Random here), and we don't have to. So just stop. Just stop. | ||
|
Genome852
United States979 Posts
On May 06 2012 03:38 durr wrote: I'm honestly getting tired of terrans calling an imbalance in tvp because their tier 1 mm and their tier 3 medivac cant stand up to a protoss tier 1 zealot/sentry and tier 3 colossi/archon/ht. Blizzard did not balance the game around 'tiers' of units... this isn't C&C. | ||
|
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
| ||
|
HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:15 Filter wrote: Here's some stats from the 2012 s2 GSL Code S/Code A season. Sub 10 minutes it's even, Terran has 8 wins and toss has 8 wins 10-15 Minutes Toss has an Edge Terran 17 wins, Toss 22 wins 15-20 Minutes Toss with a small Edge Terran 6, Toss 7 wins 20 Minutes+ Terran 2, Toss 1 The stats are in real time not blizzard time (Gom TV), and the situations where Terran won late game are because Protoss players blundered (Think MC showing all his sentries, and warping in pylon against Maru) not because they out macro'd. It's even worse if you look at the last two weeks, Terran has 12 wins to Protoss' 18 in sets and of those 12 wins 4 were marine/bunker rush all ins. There's also a clear dominance of Protoss players that have finally "got" the PvT matchup, Squirtle and Oz both have disastrous PvT win/loss ratios before the burst of protoss players and are now nearly unbeatable in the mu. The guy who started the current trend of heavy Templar use? Parting.. who has never lost a PvT at all outside of the team league. (Seriously, he's 9-0 vs. Terran) The stats are not a huge indicator all the time of how a matchup is performing, but from personal experience and watching a ton of tournaments anytime a Terran player tries to go late game with a protoss player who is within a level or two of his skill the Protoss player basically never loses, unless the Terran player is ultra aggressive early. I love this game, but this matchup is so clearly one sided lategame. This matchup also hinges on HARD counter units so badly that it's really frustrating. Starcraft was always about skill both in micro and macro and not in hard counters. Nearly every unit in the matchup hard counters something else, without any input from the other player. The matchup is fundamentally broken somewhere, and sadly I think it starts with the marine. Marines are so strong that protoss need multiple ways to deal with them... but the solutions blizzard have implemented don't allow Terran players to get creative, to use skill to get around them while the counter units come into play. If you don't have vikings for whatever reason you get slaughtered by colossus, if you have too many vikings the rest of the protoss ball destroys you AND the slow reactionary ability of Terran gets made worse by warpgate. Get rid of the Colossus, slow the damage output of everything down and spread it out more (Make Marauders do less to stalkers, but more to Zealots for starters) and give Protoss their reavers back. Where are you getting those stats from? http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2012&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27062&gamever=0&mapid=0 We clearly see that Protoss has a losing Match winrate and a dead even set winrate, yet your numbers indicate that Toss has more wins, and the numbers don't even add up to the numbers on the gom records page. | ||
|
HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:24 Valentine wrote: Except we don't (hey, masters Random here), and we don't have to. So just stop. Just stop. Don't bother trying to make any good points that contradict his "arguments". He chooses respond to the arguments that he thinks are easy to respond to and ignores the difficult ones. Earlier, when he was citing what MMA, MVP, and other Terran pros were saying as evidence that TvP was imbalanced, I asked him what he thought about how Squirtle, HerO, and Puzzle said that TvP or Protoss in general is fine. He didn't respond to me. But I'll give him the benefit of doubt - maybe he responded many pages later and I just didn't see it. And if he didn't, I'll give him a change to address my point again. Here it is: On May 05 2012 11:59 SupLilSon wrote: Just as I thought. You say you don't trust that pros are speaking up. Someone names 4 who have been very vocal, and just a small group of many Terran pros who think the same. You disregard that because you don't respect foreign players. Someone shows you Korean pros who are saying the same thing, and have been for months. Suddenly you decide that hey, we actually shouldn't trust any pro gamer's words because they are all biased. I don't even know why I argue with all the plat Toss. GG you win. Before you act all self-righteously exasperated, maybe you should address why Toss pros are simultaneously claiming that TvP is fine while Terran pros claim that it's not fine. Clearly, someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong, because those claims are polar opposites. So, unless you have some extremely compelling argument on why Terran pros are somehow more trustworthy than Toss pros, there's no point in bring up what pros say because it's clear that their perceptions of balance and the race they play are in tandem. | ||
|
naastyOne
491 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:15 Filter wrote: The matchup is fundamentally broken somewhere, and sadly I think it starts with the marine. Marines are so strong that protoss need multiple ways to deal with them... but the solutions blizzard have implemented don't allow Terran players to get creative, to use skill to get around them while the counter units come into play. If you don't have vikings for whatever reason you get slaughtered by colossus, if you have too many vikings the rest of the protoss ball destroys you AND the slow reactionary ability of Terran gets made worse by warpgate. Get rid of the Colossus, slow the damage output of everything down and spread it out more (Make Marauders do less to stalkers, but more to Zealots for starters) and give Protoss their reavers back. Wrong. The Colossus->Reaver thing changes nothing. Marauders >Colosus, Splitting of marines and marauders>Colosus. And Colosi suck vs Thor, Tank, and Viking. Problem, though, is the immortal which counters tanks all to well, and makes the needs for something low-damage but rapid-fining in mech arsenal(i guess warhound would do good in this department). Vikings could do, but they will kill colosi from air far better, eliminating the need for tanks. HT, on the other hand, hard-counter terran T3, and air units except Viking, and (more or less)Ghost, and Bio-ball. AND unlike Colosi, you can warp in HTs, and as soon as you`re out of storms you can merge into archons. And unlike Colosi archons are not vulrnable to air, and can shoot air. Colosi are good, their substitution will give nothing, while nerfing HTs to not counter everything terran has(as it was done with Snipe countering anything Zerg has) Will make a difference. | ||
|
Filter
Canada620 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:36 HolyArrow wrote: Where are you getting those stats from? http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=P&vsrace=T&season=2012&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27062&gamever=0&mapid=0 We clearly see that Protoss has a losing Match winrate and a dead even set winrate, yet your numbers indicate that Toss has more wins, and the numbers don't even add up to the numbers on the gom records page. I didn't count any of the up/down games, just the Code S/Code A stuff. The up/down games usually have a lot of players on a horrible downturn against extremely good players on a big upswing, so it's not really a great indication of equal skills. (The up/down games are also almost two months old) | ||
| ||
