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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On May 06 2012 05:42 Postaljester wrote: if you want terran to be stronger late game, or p to be weaker, terrans mid game will have to be cut down. nerf medivacs heal rate and marauders damage a bit or something along those lines. You realize this nerfs the late game as well right... | ||
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Province
United Kingdom314 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:43 Filter wrote: I didn't count any of the up/down games, just the Code S/Code A stuff. The up/down games usually have a lot of players on a horrible downturn against extremely good players on a big upswing, so it's not really a great indication of equal skills. (The up/down games are also almost two months old) I don't really think you can make that judgement, and I find it quite arbitrary. One could just as easily interpret it as "extremely well-established, skilled players who are comfortable in the booth against relatively new and inexperienced up-and-comers". As for the age of the up/downs, they were still played under the same balance patch. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:43 naastyOne wrote: Wrong. The Colossus->Reaver thing changes nothing. Marauders >Colosus, Splitting of marines and marauders>Colosus. And Colosi suck vs Thor, Tank, and Viking. Problem, though, is the immortal which counters tanks all to well, and makes the needs for something low-damage but rapid-fining in mech arsenal(i guess warhound would do good in this department). Vikings could do, but they will kill colosi from air far better, eliminating the need for tanks. HT, on the other hand, hard-counter terran T3, and air units except Viking, and (more or less)Ghost, and Bio-ball. AND unlike Colosi, you can warp in HTs, and as soon as you`re out of storms you can merge into archons. And unlike Colosi archons are not vulrnable to air, and can shoot air. Colosi are good, their substitution will give nothing, while nerfing HTs to not counter everything terran has(as it was done with Snipe countering anything Zerg has) Will make a difference. Marauders are beyond useless against Zealots, and you can't split vs. Colossus (They have concave AoE, you'd have to actually split into a line to avoid their AoE.) Marauders can't get anywhere near the Colossus unless you land a perfect flank. There's a reason Terrans have to be so marine heavy in this matchup. The fact that you can't split vs. Colossus, combined with a Templar storm is what crushes the marine ball more often than not. Trying to kite Chargelots, while storm dodging and splitting to not have a concave is impossible. You 100% need vikings to deal with Colossus and you can't fight until they're gone. Removing feedback, or removing Thor/BC energy would be a great start to bringing the matchup back to normal, even removing smartcast for templar would be cool. (Great toss players like parting would still dominate, but your average joe would have a hard time casting his storms individually.) The Colossus isn't just a bad unit in PvT, it's a bad unit in all matchups. Protoss need to go war of the worlds in PvP lategame, Zerg need masses of Corrupters in late game PvZ. Reavers would change all that, they'd be great utility units to support a gateway force, or even some air units too. I think the Immortal needs balancing too personally, nerf the supply cost/general cost and cut it's damage down a LOT (let it keep the shield though) would be pretty cool along with adding Reavers. There's just so much untapped potential in the matchups for Protoss because Colossus are so good at causing an instant win situation. You can NOT out micro a player with 3+ Colossus and a good gateway force without having the hard counter to Colossus, it's actually impossible. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On May 05 2012 17:36 Talack wrote: You contributed nothing to the discussion but looking like an idiot. Bravo, you and your race are one step backwards now : / Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. | ||
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darthfoley
United States8004 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote: Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. have decent obs scouting like 2 stalkers and a cannon and guess what. no drop | ||
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serge
Russian Federation142 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:34 Endymion wrote: they're just talking about the flow of the game in my opinion... I don't think it's a bad thing. Look at ZvT in broodwar, the flow of aggression constantly swaps between zerg and terran (1st terran can be agressive with marines, then zerg with mutas, then terran can push when they have vessels, then zerg can push when they have swarm), zvt favored Z pretty heavily in the late game (from my experiences) thus it was important for the terran to do a lot of damage during their push with initial vessels (and to maintain a high vessel count throughout the entire late game) That's also the reason why terran was impossible to play for non-koreans. Defenders have to do far less work than their aggressive opponents. Protoss had to defend long enough for terrans to starve themselves/wait for arbiter tech, and zerg had to wait until defilers. I don't think that SC2 should be emulating the horrid terran late-game aspect of BW. Also, it was less the case in BW. Terrans could rely on units other than marines as the backbone of their armies past a point where they're too difficult to control against the massive aoe of late game armies. This at-least let the terrans play late-game. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On May 06 2012 09:01 darthfoley wrote: have decent obs scouting like 2 stalkers and a cannon and guess what. no drop Drop more units. You get the advantage of knowing how much is there, whereas Protoss has to try and react on time with warp ins/moving some units to the location. Marauders shit all over Stalkers and anything armored for that matter. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:53 Province wrote: Let Medivacs heal units while they are moving, this would afford the terran bioball more durability vs protoss splash, the amount that medivacs actually heal during intensive micro is miniscule at the moment, maybe even make it an upgrade, instead of the..uh..current upgrade medivacs have. a good player will micro marine/marauder only, without moving medivacs. i dont think we terrans need this. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On May 06 2012 09:08 Cloud9157 wrote: Drop more units. You get the advantage of knowing how much is there, whereas Protoss has to try and react on time with warp ins/moving some units to the location. Marauders shit all over Stalkers and anything armored for that matter. Yes drop more then the P will go kill your base then come back to mop up the small drop force. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 06 2012 09:45 YyapSsap wrote: Yes drop more then the P will go kill your base then come back to mop up the small drop force. Attacking off of 2 bases into a terran that is currently dropping your main base is pretty much a sure fire way to lose the game. No one base races better than a two base terran. | ||
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TheKhyira
115 Posts
TvP is an extremely frustrating matchup to play these days, I hesitate to use the word imbalanced but there are some fundamental issues that sadly won't be adressed untill HoTS by the look of things. I think everyone can agree that terran has an advantage early > midgame and protoss has an advantage lategame which turns out to be a fairly flawed design. It's not very entertaining to either play or watch games with only strong all-in timings or a very one sided lategame. Having a race play against a clock sadly puts us in that spot, and it's a little disheartherning to read an official statement that heralds no upcomming changes any time soon. As time passes and people get better games simply go on for longer becausepeople have better position of units, more fleshed out timings, tigther builds and not to mention overall better decision making and unit control. So as previously stated a design that puts one side on a clock will become more and more of a balance issue as time elapses. It becomes increasingly harder to do damage to players because of these things. I also want to note that in the general meta game protoss players have figured out that they can just sit and not attack unless they are almost maxed or if the terran does something incredibly greedy, attacking someone who is already playing very defensive obviously doesn't make it any easier. There are a lot of game specific things you can complain about, drops, mules, stim, emp, warpgate reinforcement rate, collosus/storm/archon splash, chargelots but I feel like most of them are relatively within reason depdending on the map and style of the players who play. Ultimately all these things are part of the who has the stronger or weaker early > mid > lategame and that discussion could be a million pages long and we'd still conclude that generally speaking terran wins early, protoss wins late. I've read a lot of posts from generally midrange ladder players suggesting that terrans explore other unit compositions outside of mmmvg. Pardon me for my arrogance, but this more than often makes me think that these people have never sat down and played a midrange master+ TvP that went longer than 20 minutes. WIth that said I don't think these arguements can be entirely dismissed, maybe every knowledgeable terran player is wrong and maybe in the future we'll discover that some combination of other units works wonders. However I personally doubt that and I feel like it's not a waterproof arguement for or against balance in the matchup. There's a final thing I want to vent while I'm at it. Protoss undeniably requires a lot of skill and it's a very diffrent skillset from terrans. Most notably how to split your army to defend multiple location. But the actual battle apm feels incredibly skewed in favour of the protoss player. The viking vs collosus vs stalker vs bio dance is fine, the emp/snipe vs feedback/storm is fine and by all means should put the players on a fairly equal playing field. "Wait what? I have to split and stutter step multiple groups of bio at the same time?" "But im not a korean 400 battle apm bonjwa terran." "Yeah I guess I lose"... I promise you every single terran has thought that a couple of times recently, unless they're korean pro's whose ID's is composed of 3 letters starting with M. TvP will remain frustrating to play for everyone by the looks of it, and while the overall statistics might remain fairly even I'm afraid it involes a lot of 1's. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On May 06 2012 09:59 Plansix wrote: Attacking off of 2 bases into a terran that is currently dropping your main base is pretty much a sure fire way to lose the game. No one base races better than a two base terran. Well obviously you dont push out when your on 2 base do you unless its some sort of a timing? If its a 3 base situation, then the P will just go kill you. I mean, the whole idea of "drops" is to do DELAY the P. Whether its by eco damage or destroying tech buildings or having P to turn his forces back w/e. But devoting more on drops just means that the T is that much more desperate because the T army cannot tackle the P army. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 06 2012 10:20 YyapSsap wrote: Well obviously you dont push out when your on 2 base do you unless its some sort of a timing? If its a 3 base situation, then the P will just go kill you. I mean, the whole idea of "drops" is to do DELAY the P. Whether its by eco damage or destroying tech buildings or having P to turn his forces back w/e. But devoting more on drops just means that the T is that much more desperate because the T army cannot tackle the P army. Well from that description, it sounds like you were behind anyways and the drops were a desperate attempted to get back to solid footing. There are so many points during the game when drops can be used, people cannot write them off as useless just because they say "well, then there are 2 stalkers and one cannon". If drops were not effective, the players was most likely using them poorly or at the incorrect time. Most of the terran I play against who complain made really poor decisions during the match. They blame protoss, warp ins, or chargelots, but they got themselves into the positions where I had a huge advantage. It is like a protoss complaining to a zerg when the protoss let them get to 90 drones a huge bank and 4 bases. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:56 Cloud9157 wrote: Step off your high horse, mighty one. I don't get the random whines about storm now. It has never been touched(unless you want to count KA as a nerf to it) directly. Terran has always had to deal with it, and apparently its just becoming a big issue now. Seriously, first Colossi, then Chargelot Archon a while back, and now Storm? I don't understand it at all. The weakness to Protoss in TvP has ALWAYS been drops. Sniping forges will shut down a Protoss so damn hard. Drop 8 Marauders near them, press "T" and watch as the Forge implodes in a matter of seconds. One High Templar. 2 Clicks. 20 supply gone. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Many of those games reached 3+ bases. Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame? Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote: Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club. Many of those games reached 3+ bases. Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame? Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. Don't make that argument. It only invites the "Well I can only win if I have 400 AMP" response. This is then followed by the argument that protoss players can win with 20 AMP because of A-move zealots, archons and colossi. Then protoss post that it is not true and we go round and round and round. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
On May 06 2012 10:42 windsupernova wrote: Meanwhile Polt is 4-2 against MC at IPL fight club. Many of those games reached 3+ bases. Let me guess MC must have screwed up badly because a "properly played P" is unbeatable lategame? Lol, yeah lategame P is strong but the better player *gasp* usually wins. MVP said it, Hero said it, Squirtle said it. Are you joking? Seriously every time you come into these threads it's some kind of half truth. You wanna know how it happened from someone with no point to prove? MC won game 1 when it went to late, late game. After that he tried to get 3 bases at 7minutes and a standard 2 base medivac timing was too much to defend and he lost. The next game he lost, he 2 base allin'd and would have been better off handing over his keyboard to Polt as he botched the attack horrifically. Next game DT warp prism off of 2 base GOT DESTROYED along with the DTs killing less than 10 SCVs, he spams zealots while getting double upgrades and pushes with storm after barely getting his third up to win the game. Oh yeah there was a 4 gate allin on Tal Darim in there too, oops... Polt proceeded to wreck MC after his initial blink pressure backfired as he got rolled by a medivac stim timing...still 2 base vs 2 base. Last game he picked Metropolis, opened nexus first, and Polt went for a 2 rax stim timing killing the nexus AND THEN took an expo himself. But yes 3+ bases for many games here let me be sarcastic on my high horse proving my point with irrefutable logic. Every person in the RO8 who claimed the matchup was balanced and the better player won, + Show Spoiler + WON THE FUCKING SERIES. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On May 06 2012 11:03 Badfatpanda wrote: Are you joking? Seriously every time you come into these threads it's some kind of half truth. You wanna know how it happened from someone with no point to prove? MC won game 1 when it went to late, late game. After that he tried to get 3 bases at 7minutes and a standard 2 base medivac timing was too much to defend and he lost. The next game he lost, he 2 base allin'd and would have been better off handing over his keyboard to Polt as he botched the attack horrifically. Next game DT warp prism off of 2 base GOT DESTROYED along with the DTs killing less than 10 SCVs, he spams zealots while getting double upgrades and pushes with storm after barely getting his third up to win the game. Oh yeah there was a 4 gate allin on Tal Darim in there too, oops... Polt proceeded to wreck MC after his initial blink pressure backfired as he got rolled by a medivac stim timing...still 2 base vs 2 base. Last game he picked Metropolis, opened nexus first, and Polt went for a 2 rax stim timing killing the nexus AND THEN took an expo himself. But yes 3+ bases for many games here let me be sarcastic on my high horse proving my point with irrefutable logic. Every person in the RO8 who claimed the matchup was balanced and the better player won, + Show Spoiler + WON THE FUCKING SERIES. What is it about that series that proved the match up is imbalanced? Polt showed the strength of terran mid game timings in two of the games and how easily the toss all-ins that people have been whining about can be stopped in another two games. Like a lot of people have been trying to say- terran's mid game strength makes up for toss's late game strength and this series showed that pretty well. | ||
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