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On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 18:26 Severedevil wrote:On May 05 2012 18:13 Dreamslayer wrote:
1) Terran is massing up bio force and upgrades on 2 bases in the 10 first minutes of the game.
2) He pushes up the Protoss base and he seems that he will win quite one-sidedely. There's your problem. You're trying to break a two-base Protoss instead of expand. 3) Suddenly a collosus come out and begins to deal damage.
4) The terran MUST get back to his base and mass up vikings QUICKLY.
You do not need Vikings to combat a Protoss army with a small number of Colossi, unless you're fighting at choke points. Marauders are very effective against Colossi in open terrain. What is your problem? Weren't there multiple posts that explain, why EXPANDING does NOT help? You expand to 5 bases, the protoss doesn't care and just expands to a third and has enough resources to do what he wants. He has his maxed army and he can use that easily to take a 4th if needed. Then the terran is fucked because he is in the late game and has the usual problem: - you can only win an heads-on engagement if you micro really good and catch the protoss in an unfavorable position. - you cannot use micro drops because they are easily shut down by 1 HT+cannon. - you cannot use large drops (4+ medivacs) because no matter how entrenched your army is, you cannot stand up to the maxed protoss. Protoss camps your production while being able to whittle down your drops with chargelot/archon/feedback warpins. The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over.
Broodwar Protoss had a similar dynamic, but flipped around, with Protoss as the mobile party and Terran with the slow-moving death army. Five bases against three is a heavy lead that you can turn into victory, even if your army cannot defeat his in a straight-up fight.
Some inherited lessons:
-Fight in open space and attack from multiple angles. Duh. If you can't, then do not engage.
-Trade units whenever you can.
-Build a crapton of extra unit-producing structures to remax quick, and build them in different bases.
-Throw units into the opponent's base whenver he moves out.
-Well-placed statics and walls won't stop your opponent's army, but they will delay it, and prevent him from breaking your bases without sending the bulk of his army.
-A tech switch that demands different responses will drain both of your banks, but yours can more easily afford it. Stalkers are expensive.
Now, for SC2-specific stuff:
-A nuclear launch on the mouth of a base (especially your natural) will keep the Protoss army from walking in, or at least greatly delay it. Four ghost academies and 300 minerals + 300 gas per minute can maintain a constant stream of nukes.
-Any nuclear launch forces the Protoss to hunt for red dots, distracting him from his army no matter where you launch the nuke. A nuke dropped in some empty corner of the map is twenty seconds of confusion for the Protoss.
-Banshees and Reapers are more expensive than M&M and take a lot of production time, but are quite strong for their food, especially at raiding.
-Each additional orbital is four SCVs worth of mineral mining that eats no supply, which means either more income, or more supply for your army.
Really, the "more $$$, weaker army" position is perfectly playable.
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On May 05 2012 17:34 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 17:15 Cloud9157 wrote:
I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm. Just look at all the buff zergs and toss got from their whining, it is clearly the way to go! Even now, when terran pressure builds are figured out by the toss blizz is still going to buff obs and queens so that doing the damage becomes even harder... Seriously, this it so broken. Storm is op and needs to be nerfed, it is just stupid how simply toss can kill whole armies within a couple of seconds. Terran T3 needs to be buffed, remove the stupid energy bars from thors and bcs!
It's nice to see all the different Terran whines packed so nice and neatly into one small comment. It's like a machine gun burst of tears.
Zerg and Protoss were buffed a long time ago because the statistics shows a very heavy imbalance towards Terran based on certain units and unit compositions. Historically, Terran has been on top of the ladder in winrates throughout nearly the entire history of SC2 (technically even now, although the match-ups are so close to 50/50 that it's pretty much negligible). That's why they've gotten the worst end of the patches.
Removing the energy bars from thors or battlecruisers would be pretty interesting, and possibly a viable change.
However, by no means is storm broken. That's utterly ridiculous. It's no more broken than EMP is (especially since ghosts get the first shot over high templar), and dealing the killing blow that storm does is as useful as (but not more broken than) getting rid of all the shields and energy from the necessary stormcasters that Protoss has and finishing off the entire crippled army. So making any more changes to the high templar would be preposterous.
The point you should be making is that the early/ mid vs. late game stages of TvP are not balanced: Terran is stronger early on, and then Protoss becomes stronger. Also, Terran is very mobile compared to Protoss. This means that Protoss wants to turtle up to make it to the later stages of the game (when AoE units can be made) and needs to turtle up (because otherwise he'll just get outrun and flanked by stimmed units and fast drops). Furthermore, if the Terran can't do decent damage before the Protoss deathball, then Terran is at a disadvantage because Protoss can re-supply immediately with warp gate tech and forward pylons. This makes for a boring match-up and a match-up that's not balanced evenly all the way through each stage of the game.
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On May 05 2012 21:01 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 05 2012 18:26 Severedevil wrote:On May 05 2012 18:13 Dreamslayer wrote:
1) Terran is massing up bio force and upgrades on 2 bases in the 10 first minutes of the game.
2) He pushes up the Protoss base and he seems that he will win quite one-sidedely. There's your problem. You're trying to break a two-base Protoss instead of expand. 3) Suddenly a collosus come out and begins to deal damage.
4) The terran MUST get back to his base and mass up vikings QUICKLY.
You do not need Vikings to combat a Protoss army with a small number of Colossi, unless you're fighting at choke points. Marauders are very effective against Colossi in open terrain. What is your problem? Weren't there multiple posts that explain, why EXPANDING does NOT help? You expand to 5 bases, the protoss doesn't care and just expands to a third and has enough resources to do what he wants. He has his maxed army and he can use that easily to take a 4th if needed. Then the terran is fucked because he is in the late game and has the usual problem: - you can only win an heads-on engagement if you micro really good and catch the protoss in an unfavorable position. - you cannot use micro drops because they are easily shut down by 1 HT+cannon. - you cannot use large drops (4+ medivacs) because no matter how entrenched your army is, you cannot stand up to the maxed protoss. Protoss camps your production while being able to whittle down your drops with chargelot/archon/feedback warpins. The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over. Broodwar Protoss had a similar dynamic, but flipped around, with Protoss as the mobile party and Terran with the slow-moving death army. Five bases against three is a heavy lead that you can turn into victory, even if your army cannot defeat his in a straight-up fight. Some inherited lessons: -Fight in open space and attack from multiple angles. Duh. If you can't, then do not engage. -Trade units whenever you can. -Build a crapton of extra unit-producing structures to remax quick, and build them in different bases. -Throw units into the opponent's base whenver he moves out. -Well-placed statics and walls won't stop your opponent's army, but they will delay it, and prevent him from breaking your bases without sending the bulk of his army. -A tech switch that demands different responses will drain both of your banks, but yours can more easily afford it. Stalkers are expensive. Now, for SC2-specific stuff: -A nuclear launch on the mouth of a base (especially your natural) will keep the Protoss army from walking in, or at least greatly delay it. Four ghost academies and 300 minerals + 300 gas per minute can maintain a constant stream of nukes. - Any nuclear launch forces the Protoss to hunt for red dots, distracting him from his army no matter where you launch the nuke. A nuke dropped in some empty corner of the map is twenty seconds of confusion for the Protoss. -Banshees and Reapers are more expensive than M&M and take a lot of production time, but are quite strong for their food, especially at raiding. -Each additional orbital is four SCVs worth of mineral mining that eats no supply, which means either more income, or more supply for your army. Really, the "more $$$, weaker army" position is perfectly playable.
I don't really understand BW strategy as I don't really have much experience watching it. But is it possible for Protosses to take additional expansions over the Terran which is not easily punishable? It feels based on the few BW TvPs I've seen, Protosses rely on Terrans having to turtle up to get their mech armies to mass expand (kind of like how it is for bio Terran vs mech Terran in SC2).
It doesn't feel like it directly translates to SC2 however because the Protoss army is much more mobile than a Mech Terran army. And I feel that chargelots and DT warpins are more effective at destroying mineral lines than Vultures, making taking expansions vs Protoss more punishable. If you think about it, in BW, Protosses could easily mass Photon Cannons at their expoes while in SC2, you either have to get Planetaries (at the expense of Orbitals + it takes longer to set up) or leave some units there, which cuts down on the bulk of your main army.
I'm not an expert, but that's just the general feel I get from the games I watch.
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On May 05 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The point you should be making is that the early/ mid vs. late game stages of TvP are not balanced: Terran is stronger early on, and then Protoss becomes stronger. Also, Terran is very mobile compared to Protoss. This means that Protoss wants to turtle up to make it to the later stages of the game (when AoE units can be made) and needs to turtle up (because otherwise he'll just get outrun and flanked by stimmed units and fast drops). Furthermore, if the Terran can't do decent damage before the Protoss deathball, then Terran is at a disadvantage because Protoss can re-supply immediately with warp gate tech and forward pylons. This makes for a boring match-up and a match-up that's not balanced evenly all the way through each stage of the game.
No, this is not the point anyone should be making. Protoss early / mid game is weaker only because they spend their resources with the late game in mind. If the toss goes for an aggressive early/mid game timing push he has a really decent chance to stomp the T into the ground.
On the other hand terrans commit their resources into getting that toss disadvantage window as large as possible. But right now this whole horrible "disadvantege" lasts for like 2 minutes, when terran has stim and medivacs while toss does not yet have splash damage. And the toss always expects terran to hit em at that exact time, making the turtle play even easier. Map pool also helps toss.
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On May 05 2012 21:34 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The point you should be making is that the early/ mid vs. late game stages of TvP are not balanced: Terran is stronger early on, and then Protoss becomes stronger. Also, Terran is very mobile compared to Protoss. This means that Protoss wants to turtle up to make it to the later stages of the game (when AoE units can be made) and needs to turtle up (because otherwise he'll just get outrun and flanked by stimmed units and fast drops). Furthermore, if the Terran can't do decent damage before the Protoss deathball, then Terran is at a disadvantage because Protoss can re-supply immediately with warp gate tech and forward pylons. This makes for a boring match-up and a match-up that's not balanced evenly all the way through each stage of the game. No, this is not the point anyone should be making. Protoss early / mid game is weaker only because they spend their resources with the late game in mind. If the toss goes for an aggressive early/mid game timing push he has a really decent chance to stomp the T into the ground. On the other hand terrans commit their resources into getting that toss disadvantage window as large as possible. But right now this whole horrible "disadvantege" lasts for like 2 minutes, when terran has stim and medivacs while toss does not yet have splash damage. And the toss always expects terran to hit em at that exact time, making the turtle play even easier. Map pool also helps toss.
yeah but if both sides focussing on army in midgame will always give terran the upper hand.
Theres no come back from a midgame all-in on protoss side unlike terran. you kill or lose there is no inbetween.
Thats why people try to go to lategame units because they allow for a way more reliable gameplay.
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On May 05 2012 20:29 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:
The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over. thats not true, if there is a so called comeback race in this game, then it is terran. As proven time and time again.
the terran comeback potential is mostly referring to the mule, because terran is not done when you destroy his workerlines but leave him a bit of army, he can remacro a lot easier than zerg or protoss.
an army sitting in the terran production - gg
losing a big battle lategame - gg
that is not nescessarily so for protoss.
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On May 05 2012 21:40 freetgy wrote:
yeah but if both sides focussing on army in midgame will always give terran the upper hand.
Theres no come back from a midgame all-in on protoss side unlike terran. you kill or lose there is no inbetween.
Thats why people try to go to lategame units because they allow for a way more reliable gameplay.
Yes, you're right, and now it's time to quote blizzard:
if you focus on doing a mid-game timing you need to do damage with in order to enter the late game on equal footing. This is the same for both P and T.
Toss may opt out and go for the late game instead. Terrans have no choice, leaving the MU dull and a little bit too predictable.
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On May 05 2012 21:40 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:34 scypio wrote:On May 05 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The point you should be making is that the early/ mid vs. late game stages of TvP are not balanced: Terran is stronger early on, and then Protoss becomes stronger. Also, Terran is very mobile compared to Protoss. This means that Protoss wants to turtle up to make it to the later stages of the game (when AoE units can be made) and needs to turtle up (because otherwise he'll just get outrun and flanked by stimmed units and fast drops). Furthermore, if the Terran can't do decent damage before the Protoss deathball, then Terran is at a disadvantage because Protoss can re-supply immediately with warp gate tech and forward pylons. This makes for a boring match-up and a match-up that's not balanced evenly all the way through each stage of the game. No, this is not the point anyone should be making. Protoss early / mid game is weaker only because they spend their resources with the late game in mind. If the toss goes for an aggressive early/mid game timing push he has a really decent chance to stomp the T into the ground. On the other hand terrans commit their resources into getting that toss disadvantage window as large as possible. But right now this whole horrible "disadvantege" lasts for like 2 minutes, when terran has stim and medivacs while toss does not yet have splash damage. And the toss always expects terran to hit em at that exact time, making the turtle play even easier. Map pool also helps toss. yeah but if both sides focussing on army in midgame will always give terran the upper hand. Theres no come back from a midgame all-in on protoss side unlike terran. you kill or lose there is no inbetween. Thats why people try to go to lategame units because they allow for a way more reliable gameplay.
Watch Hero vs Supernova in GSL ro8. Protoss can just as easily come back from a failed all in.
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On May 04 2012 13:48 guN-viCe wrote:
I think it's OK. It would be tough to balance TvP lategame without messing up other matchups or stages of the game. I used to think lategame TvP was super hard until I watched the pro's and practiced my micro in UMS. When I started engaging properly and spreading my forces good, I had more success.
What is UMS?
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On May 05 2012 21:55 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:40 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 21:34 scypio wrote:On May 05 2012 21:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
The point you should be making is that the early/ mid vs. late game stages of TvP are not balanced: Terran is stronger early on, and then Protoss becomes stronger. Also, Terran is very mobile compared to Protoss. This means that Protoss wants to turtle up to make it to the later stages of the game (when AoE units can be made) and needs to turtle up (because otherwise he'll just get outrun and flanked by stimmed units and fast drops). Furthermore, if the Terran can't do decent damage before the Protoss deathball, then Terran is at a disadvantage because Protoss can re-supply immediately with warp gate tech and forward pylons. This makes for a boring match-up and a match-up that's not balanced evenly all the way through each stage of the game. No, this is not the point anyone should be making. Protoss early / mid game is weaker only because they spend their resources with the late game in mind. If the toss goes for an aggressive early/mid game timing push he has a really decent chance to stomp the T into the ground. On the other hand terrans commit their resources into getting that toss disadvantage window as large as possible. But right now this whole horrible "disadvantege" lasts for like 2 minutes, when terran has stim and medivacs while toss does not yet have splash damage. And the toss always expects terran to hit em at that exact time, making the turtle play even easier. Map pool also helps toss. yeah but if both sides focussing on army in midgame will always give terran the upper hand. Theres no come back from a midgame all-in on protoss side unlike terran. you kill or lose there is no inbetween. Thats why people try to go to lategame units because they allow for a way more reliable gameplay. Watch Hero vs Supernova in GSL ro8. Protoss can just as easily come back from a failed all in.
You mean a 28 Probe 4gate which killed at least 8 SCVs and whose only casualties were Zealots?
That's not a failed all-in.
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On May 05 2012 21:32 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 21:01 Severedevil wrote:On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:On May 05 2012 18:26 Severedevil wrote:On May 05 2012 18:13 Dreamslayer wrote:
1) Terran is massing up bio force and upgrades on 2 bases in the 10 first minutes of the game.
2) He pushes up the Protoss base and he seems that he will win quite one-sidedely. There's your problem. You're trying to break a two-base Protoss instead of expand. 3) Suddenly a collosus come out and begins to deal damage.
4) The terran MUST get back to his base and mass up vikings QUICKLY.
You do not need Vikings to combat a Protoss army with a small number of Colossi, unless you're fighting at choke points. Marauders are very effective against Colossi in open terrain. What is your problem? Weren't there multiple posts that explain, why EXPANDING does NOT help? You expand to 5 bases, the protoss doesn't care and just expands to a third and has enough resources to do what he wants. He has his maxed army and he can use that easily to take a 4th if needed. Then the terran is fucked because he is in the late game and has the usual problem: - you can only win an heads-on engagement if you micro really good and catch the protoss in an unfavorable position. - you cannot use micro drops because they are easily shut down by 1 HT+cannon. - you cannot use large drops (4+ medivacs) because no matter how entrenched your army is, you cannot stand up to the maxed protoss. Protoss camps your production while being able to whittle down your drops with chargelot/archon/feedback warpins. The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over. Broodwar Protoss had a similar dynamic, but flipped around, with Protoss as the mobile party and Terran with the slow-moving death army. Five bases against three is a heavy lead that you can turn into victory, even if your army cannot defeat his in a straight-up fight. Some inherited lessons: -Fight in open space and attack from multiple angles. Duh. If you can't, then do not engage. -Trade units whenever you can. -Build a crapton of extra unit-producing structures to remax quick, and build them in different bases. -Throw units into the opponent's base whenver he moves out. -Well-placed statics and walls won't stop your opponent's army, but they will delay it, and prevent him from breaking your bases without sending the bulk of his army. -A tech switch that demands different responses will drain both of your banks, but yours can more easily afford it. Stalkers are expensive. Now, for SC2-specific stuff: -A nuclear launch on the mouth of a base (especially your natural) will keep the Protoss army from walking in, or at least greatly delay it. Four ghost academies and 300 minerals + 300 gas per minute can maintain a constant stream of nukes. - Any nuclear launch forces the Protoss to hunt for red dots, distracting him from his army no matter where you launch the nuke. A nuke dropped in some empty corner of the map is twenty seconds of confusion for the Protoss. -Banshees and Reapers are more expensive than M&M and take a lot of production time, but are quite strong for their food, especially at raiding. -Each additional orbital is four SCVs worth of mineral mining that eats no supply, which means either more income, or more supply for your army. Really, the "more $$$, weaker army" position is perfectly playable. I don't really understand BW strategy as I don't really have much experience watching it. But is it possible for Protosses to take additional expansions over the Terran which is not easily punishable? It feels based on the few BW TvPs I've seen, Protosses rely on Terrans having to turtle up to get their mech armies to mass expand (kind of like how it is for bio Terran vs mech Terran in SC2). It doesn't feel like it directly translates to SC2 however because the Protoss army is much more mobile than a Mech Terran army. And I feel that chargelots and DT warpins are more effective at destroying mineral lines than Vultures, making taking expansions vs Protoss more punishable. If you think about it, in BW, Protosses could easily mass Photon Cannons at their expoes while in SC2, you either have to get Planetaries (at the expense of Orbitals + it takes longer to set up) or leave some units there, which cuts down on the bulk of your main army. I'm not an expert, but that's just the general feel I get from the games I watch.
You are right, people saying late-game TvP is imba for Terran in BW don't understand the game very well. Split map TvP is equal if not stronger for P than it is for T. Otherwise T would never do a 2-base timing attack and Flash wouldn't be doing all these greedy builds.
BW Probes mine 20% faster than SCVs. Does not exist in SC2.
BW More bases = more economy. Does not exist in SC2.
BW Mech is immobile, you can't just a-move into the Protoss base when you feel like it, because a deathball with un-sieged tanks will die to a Protoss army. In SC2 Protoss armies are as mobile as T.
BW Protoss has about 20 gateways to Terrans 9 Facts. In SC2, Protoss has equal if not better production than Terran.
BW Protoss has Arbiters and Carriers. In SC2, Terran lacks T3 firepower.
Seriously I've played split map TvP with both races and it feels nothing like the hopelessness you feel in SC2 late-game TvP. The problem is you can't "out-macro" a good Toss, you gotta exploit timings, attack openings and compositions.
In BW TvP (or any matchup for that matter) it doesn't matter which race you pick, if you are greedy and can defend it, you will win. That is a style of play that Flash uses, and he used it against Bisu when they switched races, and Flash just demolished him with good economic management even when he was losing random units to mines. Flash just proved it doesn't matter what race you play, just be greedy and you can win. 
In SC2 Terran can't get 3-4 bases up really fast, defend it, and then beat Protoss that way. The more chance you give Protoss in getting that 3rd base the more likely you are gonna lose, for various reasons. Unit design, 4 bases is not more economical than 3 bases, etc.
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Damn these terran whiners sure know how to take things out of context just to justify their tears. Blizzard states that terran has the advantage early-mid so they are able to do damage, not outright kill the protoss. So with that being said, as long as the terran player plays his race properly, the late game advantage protoss has will be negated due to the damage he received early-mid game.
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I have seen a lot of terran win vs toss late game, the army just consisted of more tier 2 and tier 3 units.
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BW Mech is immobile, you can't just a-move into the Protoss base when you feel like it, because a deathball with un-sieged tanks will die to a Protoss army. In SC2 Protoss armies are as mobile as T.
This is the big one. You can't stall a protoss deathball nearly to the effect that protoss stalled a BW mech army. Colossus don't need to siege, it takes no time at all to lay a carpet storm, zealots have charge and stalkers can teleport, and then the army can be reinforced on the spot via warpgate.
Protoss used to threaten to attack a terran every step of the way to survive, forcing the terran to siege and unsiege constantly. in the background protoss would then have like 5-6 base, and then have the macro power to start throwing units at the mech ball whenever its caught out of position, and whittle it down and eventually crush it.
There isn't nearly that kind of economic power in sc2, theres little to no defenders advantage against protoss, and theres no high ground advantage to set up good engagements.
+ Show Spoiler +It just feels wierd that TvP should revolve around the early game, and then lategame TvP is a gimme to the protoss player if he came out at least even.
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On May 06 2012 02:29 power-overwhelming wrote:
Damn these terran whiners sure know how to take things out of context just to justify their tears. Blizzard states that terran has the advantage early-mid so they are able to do damage, not outright kill the protoss. So with that being said, as long as the terran player plays his race properly, the late game advantage protoss has will be negated due to the damage he received early-mid game.
Posts like this make my head hurt. What happens if Toss "plays his race properly" and defends your predictable aggression? And as Terran's have been saying forever: You can build up a pretty nice lead early/mid and it doesn't mean shit going into late game, regardless of what Blizzard is saying.
And to all the people saying Toss can't come back from an all in, I wonder if you actually play/watch this game.
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I thought blizzard released an article that said they are aware of these differences and seemingly imbalances in the midgame/lategame and they are "watching TvP very closely at the top level." I think you are all assuming that they are done patching the game for good, fact is we've had way more GSL terran champs, then the nerfs for terran came through, if this lategame imbalance is exploited enough in the GSL and we have a protoss filled semifinals like this season, Im pretty sure they will continue to make balance changes to get the winrates similar again.
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On May 06 2012 03:01 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 02:29 power-overwhelming wrote:
Damn these terran whiners sure know how to take things out of context just to justify their tears. Blizzard states that terran has the advantage early-mid so they are able to do damage, not outright kill the protoss. So with that being said, as long as the terran player plays his race properly, the late game advantage protoss has will be negated due to the damage he received early-mid game.
Posts like this make my head hurt. What happens if Toss "plays his race properly" and defends your predictable aggression? And as Terran's have been saying forever: You can build up a pretty nice lead early/mid and it doesn't mean shit going into late game, regardless of what Blizzard is saying. And to all the people saying Toss can't come back from an all in, I wonder if you actually play/watch this game.
If a protoss does no economical damage, and cut works and tech (which is what a true all-in will do), then the game is over. Most professional protoss players just straight up gg in that case. The only time they can still come back from a slightly failed all-in is if they did significantly economic damage, and take a huge risk immediately following the failed all-in (see Hero v. Supernova, game 1).
Not all terrans will be agressive in the mid game, but they all make the protoss think they will be. Since protoss has no map presence outside of observers, snipe observers putting protoss in the dark. Then whether you are agressive or not, they have to play like you will be. The protoss cannot leave his base until he has a strong enough army to not get obliterated immediately since he won't have a choke to use FFs. Good terran players use that. Look at thorzain, who plays TvP usually for the lategame. He uses the fact that protoss thinks he is going to pressure to get additonal expansions up. He uses the economic lead to plant PFs in the middle of the map, he builds barracks in open space to create more chokes to reduce the effectiveness of zealots.
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On May 06 2012 03:01 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 02:29 power-overwhelming wrote:
Damn these terran whiners sure know how to take things out of context just to justify their tears. Blizzard states that terran has the advantage early-mid so they are able to do damage, not outright kill the protoss. So with that being said, as long as the terran player plays his race properly, the late game advantage protoss has will be negated due to the damage he received early-mid game.
Posts like this make my head hurt. What happens if Toss "plays his race properly" and defends your predictable aggression? And as Terran's have been saying forever: You can build up a pretty nice lead early/mid and it doesn't mean shit going into late game, regardless of what Blizzard is saying. And to all the people saying Toss can't come back from an all in, I wonder if you actually play/watch this game.
Then why are the winrates even? I mean, if Terran getting an advantage in the midgame does not help, then how do Terrans with 50% of their games against Protoss? I don't watch that much SC2, but the few recent TvPs I've seen, the Terran would almost always win after doing damage in the midgame, with drops or some kind of timing, or sometimes with a late all-in.
Make no mistake, this whole idea by Blizzard is retarded and awful for the game - and probably the main reason TvP is so boring to watch and play. But making it seem like the sky is falling when, objectively, the game is quite balanced, does not help your argument at all.
Finally, this is (AGAIN, ffs) all because of Warpgates. Khaydarin Amulet got removed because of Warpgates, Zealot build time got nerfed, because of Warpgates, and now, if this persists, something else is going to get hit. But not Warpgates themselves, oh no, can't possibly touch Dustin Browder's innovation to Protoss gameplay. Sigh.
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While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting.
Just as upsetting as it is that they admit that Terran is stronger then Protoss in the first 20 minutes, or doesn't that count because you play Terran?
Terran is very strong earlier on, all that Blizzard is saying, Terran has the advantage early on and not using that advantage is just bad play and allows Protoss to later on have an advantage. That is pretty much it.
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mid game is pretty much the only time you will take out a protoss unless you are crazy good at micro which most of us are not. at diamond/masters level it takes alot more effort to play terran than protoss which is why im playing protoss most of the time now lol.
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EPT
