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On May 05 2012 17:56 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 17:44 SolidMoose wrote:On May 05 2012 17:33 Talack wrote:On May 05 2012 16:08 Piledriver wrote:On May 05 2012 14:19 Talack wrote:
....
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo. Sure, as long as Terran gets an early game nerf to accompany it. You cant have your cake and eat it too. Honestly it wouldn't be a patch without nerfing terran in the early game  And honestly, what is it that is so bad about terran early game? I'd really like to know. because so far protoss are not having trouble with the early game it seems. Honestly, I'd really like to know (not condescending at all). We seem to be on pretty equal footing despite some of the strong-as hell terran all-ins. But that's beaten as long as you're not too greedy in my experiance. Edit: Should probably add in that yes I know that terran is a bit stronger in the early game, but it's dealable with by making correct decisions and scouting etc etc... Comparable to the late game, terran already knows what's comming but just can't keep up with it no matter what they do. Terran early game can't be nerfed, protoss all ins are already way too effective. I think Terran has a small advantage mid-game until charge + storm are out, but I don't know how to nerf that. But that midgame advantage only lasts about 5 minutes, compared to how long the lategame can go. Yeah this is my experiance as well. Toss early-game attacks can be extemely devestating. A 6-gate with 6-7 sentries spamming forcefields can easily kill off a 4-5 bunker defense with scv repair. A 3 collosus push if you don't have enough vikings kills you. Alot of the terran early-game/mid game if you want, aggression does not kill the protoss but does damage, taking out an entire army and maybe killing some tech or an expo. I don't really know quite what is expected out of nerfing the terran early game, quite honestly it doesn't seem that bad off to deal with. Strong yes, but very dealable with.
This early/mid game advantage for terran is seriously overrated IMO. Early game it kind of depends on the BO used by the player. There's some cheesy/sneaky stuff terran can do that is hard for protoss to stop, but if the terran goes for a fast expansion, we've even seen in GSL that a FE terran with a bunch of bunkers can get rolled by a Fast 3 Nexus protoss, I don't really understand how that should be able to happen. It takes a while for terran to get the combat shields/concussive shells/stim and medivacs required for terran to be safe from those kind of obnoxious busts. Once they do get those out, then there is a window where they are really strong in the mid game, but it seems that window to do damage before storm etc are out is getting very small.
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"While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting"
Hmm i dont find this upsetting at all
They clearly explained that "StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles" and that "That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play."
They did this "to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance"
Well i kinda can agree with their reasoning and as such i dont find this upsetting at all
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On May 05 2012 16:25 MorroW wrote:
What about adding ravens to the mix in late game? HSM is pretty sick. Imagine emp cloud all over him and then a few HSMs to soften it up. It's not like your lacking gas at that point anyway.
Anyway just a thought might just throw it out there, too much negativity in this thread IMO xd
Maybe hellions in the back would be worth the money?
it would be awesome if you tried that for a few games and uploaded some replays.. doesn't sound very good to me though. If you've managed to blanket emp, you're probably going to win that engagement without expensive, fragile units like Ravens
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On May 04 2012 17:32 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 16:49 GhostOwl wrote:On May 04 2012 13:57 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win. Yeah this. In Broodwar, Terrans had the strongest late game. If Protoss let Terrans get 3+ bases with fully upgraded army, Protoss army was fucked in a straight-up late game fight. Unless you pulled off some miracle storms and stasis Now that the roles are reversed, you guys can't handle it? It's not even as unfair as BW was, because Terran had incredibly strong late game in TvP BW, but they also had timing pushes mid-game as well, and cost-efficient harrassment options thru vultures.... If only Terran in sc2 had something like stasis or recall, or carriers. If sc2 Terran had recall, we would be kinda ok. But alas, Terran don't.
Stasis and Recalls were late-game tools to defend against BW Terran.
EMP and Raven are late-game tools to defend against SC2 Toss.
Just because you fail to spread out your army to minimize Colossus splash and EMP HT's before you get stormed does not mean late-game P army = insta-death. There are spells and counters to it, use them.
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Problem with ravens is again that they need sh**load of time till they can actually fire a hsm and when they have they often get feedbacked and die. But yeah, its not really a gas problem.
Have been trying to mix some Battlecruiser into the mix as they help lowering zealotcount while not beeing that microintensive. Problem again is that they have shitloads of energy and have to be emped....
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On May 05 2012 14:33 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:19 Talack wrote:
I think wha'ts going to happen is a nerf to templars and storm.
Lets be honest, those two things are not that prevaliant in the other matchups. it's only in TvP that it is really used quite a bit (yeah yeah storming mutas as they come in your base and stuff etc etc).
Despite blizzards stance on this the matchup is not balanced at all. What happens when you don't get that advantage that blizzard talks about in the midgame? Protoss have been dealing with our timings for a long time and they're extemely good at defending them easily now. So what? There isn't much else we can do really. We can't transition out (it's not as easy as having two robos up to chrono out collosus. Hell our upgrades dont even cover the same units) and anytime we do it's an all-in.
So...That leaves the biggest source of our problems in TvP. Storm. Storm landing or us missing a single templar and the battle being over because of one storm landing on our army. Kite out? yeah of course we do. You still did a TON of damage and had your other units attacking at the same time. It's a huge problem and it's not as easy as just dodging them constantly because the battle is over soon as we mis-micro slightly and eat 1/2 of the storms damage.
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo. Rerember when they remove Khaidaren Amulet? Protoss were bitching like crazy and say it will break the game in favor of terran etc etc. It was a smart move by Blizzard though and toss players has gotten much better. Lategame TvP is a problem though. I think nerfing storm damage by a bit will be okay.
if nerfing HT was the goal, there must have been at least a couple of options preferable to removing amulet. the nerf wasn't so much a storm nerf, as it was a crippling blow to various sneaky and clever warp-in strategies with HT's.
imo it all comes down to the utterly stupid game design. noone should EVER be forced to create 1 single class of unit in order to counter 1 single class of unit. it doesn't do anything good, only takes a step closer to being braindead.
for example terran has to spend a fortune on crappy vikings, otherwise he auto-loses to colossus. on the other hand, protoss is more than happy to make colossus, because colossus are godlike against everything except vikings. this is fundamentally broken, and should have been fixed during the beta. of course any change now will be too little, too late; because many other stupid niggly things have been changed to accomodate for that completely dumb unit dynamic.... but i still see it as an epic failure nonetheless.
viking vs colossus is not the only stupid unit dynamic either. marauder vs ultralisk, ghost vs infestor etc... and i'm sure they exist for zerg and protoss as well.
it's a cock-up... this whole strategy dynamic of 'you should need X otherwise you lose to Y' has been taken far too literal. imo there should always be more than one viable response, otherwise you end up with the obvious end result of a game that is not only likely to be imbalanced (because someone is always on the backfoot regardless of minor skill differential between players), but will eventually reach a tears-of-blood level of boredom as well.
but then again, i don't play sc2 at a high level.... i take the perspective of a long time spectator of top level play, since beta, and broodwar before that. maybe i'm wrong, but sc2 is really fizzling out for me all the same.
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On May 05 2012 18:41 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:32 Micket wrote:On May 04 2012 16:49 GhostOwl wrote:On May 04 2012 13:57 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win. Yeah this. In Broodwar, Terrans had the strongest late game. If Protoss let Terrans get 3+ bases with fully upgraded army, Protoss army was fucked in a straight-up late game fight. Unless you pulled off some miracle storms and stasis Now that the roles are reversed, you guys can't handle it? It's not even as unfair as BW was, because Terran had incredibly strong late game in TvP BW, but they also had timing pushes mid-game as well, and cost-efficient harrassment options thru vultures.... If only Terran in sc2 had something like stasis or recall, or carriers. If sc2 Terran had recall, we would be kinda ok. But alas, Terran don't. Stasis and Recalls were late-game tools to defend against BW Terran. EMP and Raven are late-game tools to defend against SC2 Toss. Just because you fail to spread out your army to minimize Colossus splash and EMP HT's before you get stormed does not mean late-game P army = insta-death. There are spells and counters to it, use them.
how does your spreading help you while chargelots run in? micro back and you clump.
and how do you emp over chargelots (meaning, how do you get in range when there are chargelots)? it's really nice when toss clump their army or don't protect their templar but that leaves me crossing my fingers.
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Quite much the first time I bother to write, but this thread is just making me so depressed that I have to say something.
First of all it seems like atleast 90 percent of what's written in this thread is Theory Craft deluxe.
1. Terran should use more mech vs Toss.
I can seriously not believe that people keep claiming that Terran has got some kind of secret weapon vs Protoss in Mech. Starcraft 2 has been around for a while now. If we look at the Big tournaments (MLG, GSL, Dreamhack, IPL, etc.) and the proffesional games from there. How many percentage of the games did Terran players opt to go for a late game Mech? I have no statistic, but I bet it's way lower than 1%.
It's my opinion that anyone claiming Mech is some kind of solution to the current situation in TvP is either TheoryCrafting or way to stuck in the 4vs4 Games on Ladder.
If Mech seriously had been playable, we'd see players use it more often from time to time.
The same comes for BattleCruisers, Raven Spam and God knows what people are mentioning. It might work in some weird fantasy dream world that. However, I have NEVER seen a SINGLE battlecruiser built in TvP on proffesional level when there was something at stake. Never.
2. The Micro Better of STFU-discussion.
Im getting tired of Protoss players argument "Micro perfect of STFU".
Im getting tired of Terran players argument "Micro perfect or STFU"
Even the best Terran Players in the world lategame vs Protoss (Puma, MKP, etc.) struggle A LOT during the lategame engagements. Players like Thorzain, Select, Taeja, Supernova, etc. etc. etc. is hardly winning the lategame battles at all.
If they, proffesional and paid gamers seem to have to big problems microing. Why on earth is everyone TheoryCrafting that it is possible in Master League?
I as Master League player realise that I am not just that good. And if I could do all what is required, I would not play in Master League. I would be a top player in GM.
I think untill you are actually there, a bit more understanding would not damage anyone. I bet 85 percent of the people that are writing about the "perfect terran micro" in this thread are so far away from being able to perform it that it's just a joke even mentioning it and ask it from other players.
Because honestly, how many here can actually instantly upload a reaply from your past 3 games TvP and show where you microed perfect as Terran? How many protoss players dare to swtich to T and even try it out?
Most of us writing here are nowhere near that level at all wich is what worries me. Because untill we are there we will see Terran timing-attacks before the Deathball hits. Then we will see Terran win or die five minutes later.
I do not enjoy that at all.
As a Terran player I want to be able to macro more. To rely on something else than 1/1/1 or timing attacks during the mid-game. I dont want to see Pro-games were Protoss dont care to move out during the first 15 minutes. I want to see harassment from both sides, micro while macro, enteraining games.
As the meta is right now, TvP is just a timing attack against the clock. It's not fun to play. It's not fun to watch.
And everyone keeps suggesting "micro better or play mech..." when maybe 5-10 players in the World have the ability to micro that good and Mech has not been played ever in the match up.
Perhaps, something else needs to be changed? Dont you think?
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Bc dont work well against toss, they all have 3 armour by the time you got bc
If you then have not upgraded air attack your damage goes from 8 to 5 or lower.
Seen it so often, they just sit there in the air taking ages to kill units.
You are much better off with banshees i think.
Raven is such a piece of ****,
Do people even research the harakiri hsm or is it only for detection and the occasional 1 time pdd before it inevitably dies as first unit of your army.
MEH
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I do think that they need to nerf storm (i don't know how, maybe the radius, or reduce the damages to 60-70).
They also have to change the mechanics of charge zealots. This skill is way too powerful late game, and i think, that it have to me activated MANUALLY (like stimpack). It will add more challenge in the fights for the protoss, and like us, we have to EMP and stim and kite. The skill ceiling will be a little bit higher for the protosses and less a-move friendly, imo.
Because why does the protosses just need to a-move, and we have to fucking lose actions in microing our bio army by kiting ? It has to be fair. Disable Auto-charge isn't really a big deal.
What do you think guys?
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Thats an awesome idea actually.
Think It should also damage the zealot for around 20?
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On May 05 2012 19:07 Rassy wrote:Thats an awesome idea actually. Think It should also damage the zealot for around 20?
No, not taking any damage, cause they haven't got instant response to losing health and can't recover lost health points. But it will add more skill mechanics to master those chargelots. I think that the less the game is a-move friendly, the more it is interesting. Like in brood war.
In fact, i don't really see where are the big deals with the protoss race, they haven't got any difficulties in their macro mechanics, and don't really suffer about their mechanics in general : I mean the zergs have got their injections, and keep their eco good while spend their money, spreading creep etc (which is actually hard to do), the terrans have hard macro et micro mechanics too, but the protoss haven't got anything hard...
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Nice rational statement by Blizzard. I like how they're going about balance in this regard. I assume much of the whining in this thread is based on personal bias from either playing or watching MKP/others get owned.
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On May 05 2012 18:29 AxionSteel wrote:
It takes a while for terran to get the combat shields/concussive shells/stim and medivacs required for terran to be safe from those kind of obnoxious busts.
You can take the field earlier if you delay tech for more units. If you tech aggressively, you're naturally stuck on defense until your tech is out against a low-tech opponent.
On May 05 2012 16:25 MorroW wrote:
What about adding ravens to the mix in late game? HSM is pretty sick. Imagine emp cloud all over him and then a few HSMs to soften it up. It's not like your lacking gas at that point anyway.
One Raven is easily justified; permanent detection makes it much harder for Protoss to watch your army, and PDD is great against Stalkers (especially to protect your expensive Vikings while you snipe Colossi or Medivacs while you drop). I don't think Ravens stack well against a Protoss with Templar, though; HSM has crappy range, only gets one shot/Raven, and has Feedback to worry about.
Maybe hellions in the back would be worth the money?
Probably. A few hellions to snipe Templar or probes could pose a huge nuisance.
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On May 05 2012 18:59 Rassy wrote:Bc dont work well against toss, they all have 3 armour by the time you got bc If you then have not upgraded air attack your damage goes from 8 to 5 or lower. Seen it so often, they just sit there in the air taking ages to kill units. You are much better off with banshees i think. Raven is such a piece of ****, Do people even research the harakiri hsm or is it only for detection and the occasional 1 time pdd before it inevitably dies as first unit of your army. MEH
I wish blizzard would make battlecruiser and carrier benefit more from attack upgrades. Like getting at least +2 per upgrade rather than one. It suck so much, since air units usually are way too much behind in upgrades by the time you have the production and the economy to get them.
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On May 05 2012 18:26 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 18:13 Dreamslayer wrote:
1) Terran is massing up bio force and upgrades on 2 bases in the 10 first minutes of the game.
2) He pushes up the Protoss base and he seems that he will win quite one-sidedely. There's your problem. You're trying to break a two-base Protoss instead of expand. Show nested quote +3) Suddenly a collosus come out and begins to deal damage.
4) The terran MUST get back to his base and mass up vikings QUICKLY.
You do not need Vikings to combat a Protoss army with a small number of Colossi, unless you're fighting at choke points. Marauders are very effective against Colossi in open terrain.
What is your problem? Weren't there multiple posts that explain, why EXPANDING does NOT help? You expand to 5 bases, the protoss doesn't care and just expands to a third and has enough resources to do what he wants. He has his maxed army and he can use that easily to take a 4th if needed. Then the terran is fucked because he is in the late game and has the usual problem:
- you can only win an heads-on engagement if you micro really good and catch the protoss in an unfavorable position.
- you cannot use micro drops because they are easily shut down by 1 HT+cannon.
- you cannot use large drops (4+ medivacs) because no matter how entrenched your army is, you cannot stand up to the maxed protoss. Protoss camps your production while being able to whittle down your drops with chargelot/archon/feedback warpins.
The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over.
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Well the fact of the matter is that there are very few Terrans left on the ladder. (EU server, Master league).
I can easily face just 1 or 2 TvTs in every 20 or so games.
It's basically a PvP, ZvZ, PvZ-fest.
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On May 05 2012 18:46 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 18:41 GhostOwl wrote:On May 04 2012 17:32 Micket wrote:On May 04 2012 16:49 GhostOwl wrote:On May 04 2012 13:57 laLAlA[uC] wrote:
This has been around since brood war... Terran is strongest late game. They have to turtle with their mech army and the Protoss just has to mass expand and get really huge or break terran early in order to win. Yeah this. In Broodwar, Terrans had the strongest late game. If Protoss let Terrans get 3+ bases with fully upgraded army, Protoss army was fucked in a straight-up late game fight. Unless you pulled off some miracle storms and stasis Now that the roles are reversed, you guys can't handle it? It's not even as unfair as BW was, because Terran had incredibly strong late game in TvP BW, but they also had timing pushes mid-game as well, and cost-efficient harrassment options thru vultures.... If only Terran in sc2 had something like stasis or recall, or carriers. If sc2 Terran had recall, we would be kinda ok. But alas, Terran don't. Stasis and Recalls were late-game tools to defend against BW Terran. EMP and Raven are late-game tools to defend against SC2 Toss. Just because you fail to spread out your army to minimize Colossus splash and EMP HT's before you get stormed does not mean late-game P army = insta-death. There are spells and counters to it, use them. how does your spreading help you while chargelots run in? micro back and you clump. and how do you emp over chargelots (meaning, how do you get in range when there are chargelots)? it's really nice when toss clump their army or don't protect their templar but that leaves me crossing my fingers.
Maybe put your army on more than 1 control group? lol.
And for the 2nd question, it's more of a micro battle between you and your opponent. Try to get yourself in better positioning. BW TvP, Protoss had to make sure HT (with its vastly inferior range to Tanks) got within range of tanks, and get good storms. Stasis, Arbiters had to survive turrets, goliaths, and go to the tanks in the back to try to freeze them.
Every spell requires micro and babysitting.
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On May 05 2012 20:10 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 18:46 Vari wrote:
how does your spreading help you while chargelots run in? micro back and you clump.
Maybe put your army on more than 1 control group? lol.
You are kidding, right? stutterstepping one bioball already takes about 100 apm. just how much would you need to do that with two groups? My guess is about 250.
And in the meantime do the usual stuff, macro, snipe HTs, position vikings etc. Yeah right!
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On May 05 2012 19:31 Thrombozyt wrote:
The problem is that you cannot use your economic advantage because once you lose your army it is over.
thats not true, if there is a so called comeback race in this game, then it is terran. As proven time and time again.
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EPT
