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On May 05 2012 09:41 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:50 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 07:32 desarrisc wrote:On May 05 2012 06:49 NHL Fever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:18 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:[B] Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous  Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. 1) Currently Storm area = EMP area. They are both 1.5 radius. (Liquipedia) Please check your facts before stating them as facts. 2) Templars cost heavier on gas, and overall is "cheaper" but Ghosts have passive attack ability, higher movespeed, researchable cloaking and anti-caster snipe. 3) Overgeneralization. Ghosts usually need to lead the terran army in engagements, scan to kill obs, then cloak and EMP. That way you guarantee hitting the major units. 4) Untrue. Snipe observers, then cloak. Protoss has no secondary detection method. Also, high templar into archon formation separated from main army equates to dead archons as well. Your logic, i'm sorry to say, is non sequitor in this case. 5) True, but High templar takes additonal 40 in game seconds to storm, whereas ghosts spawn with enough energy to EMP with the energy upgrade. 6) True, but different units are different. Templar can hold off drops, but same goes for small army of MM in base denies protoss drops too. 7) Tech lab builds relatively quickly and is cheap. The price of add-on is to accomodate for terran building's ability to float. 8) Somewhat true, but if the obs is in the centre of deathball, EMP-ing the army is easier because of the vision deficit. If observer is out too front of army, it is easy to kill the observer with scan and shoot. I'm sorry, different units may be different, but HT is not necessarily "better" than the ghost. 1) Ok fair enough, I'm mistaken. 2) Passive attack capability is useless for ghosts. If you are close enough to use it, you are about to lose all your ghosts and they are too valuable for general duty. No pros make any significant use of regular attack. Passive attack occurs in one circumstance - after you just lost your whole army, are getting overrun and ghosts could not run away. In such a circumstance, I'm not sure if they kill a single unit. 3) Its very hard to scan to kill obs when obs is within other army units. Usually you will die to collosus or zealots before close enough 4) Observers are not bio, snipe does work on them. It rarely matters that archon formation cannot move, as terran army is generally moving backwards during battles to kite, not forwards. I cannot remember the last time I lost any significant amount of archons while forming. 5) This is far outwieghed by the length of time it takes to build ghosts and get them to the battle. Fewer building make them, they need to build, then they need to walk there...slowly with no stim. 6) Yes but the sacrifice in units is less, and you need to kite your units if the drop is anything larger than 3 zealots taking up apm. 7) A rax has only 1 add-on at a time. If you constantly switch, you still only have as many tech lab as you built. If your idea of quick ghosts is to take time and tons of apm to suddently lift all rax from reactors, find space for them on the map, build tech labs, build ghosts (long), then bring ghosts to battle.....well you obviously don't play terran. Shift-spam hotkey for templar is scientifically speaking...about a million times faster than that. Which I happily benefit from when I get toss  8) No doubt I've emp'd my share of clumped deathballs. But the point is that if you emp 95% of the entire army, but miss a 2 or 3 key units elsewhere, you lose that battle. If you hit ANY decent chunk of terran ball with storm, that's a win folks. 9) I should add that ghosts need 2 upgrades, while templar need only storm to be extremely useful Anyway I'm not trying to apologize for terran, I don't care which race the game randomizes me too. I'm just saying that obviously players who play a certain race with ALWAYS see all the advantages of the other guys units, and I know from routine experience that templar are both easier to make and easier to use. Maybe with more time if I become expert, that gap may narrow. But jugding from gsl's the past few seasons, pros are finding the same thing. 2)/4) My terminology for use of "snipe" was to indicate regular attack by the ghost. It 3 shots obs with regular attack. My apologies. Also, a couple of vikings with scan takes obs out in 1 shot i believe. 3)/8) Seems to address a same point. I think this is an overstatement, and it depends on how the armies engage. That 2/3 units missed = lost game. It's matter of where you engage the protoss force. If you engage at a choke, you will lose even if you EMP everything and the protoss has colossi. If you engage in open space, you will win even if protoss has multiple storms left over. If the situation is bad, terran force can outrun protoss army. 5) is still a non point. Different race mechanics doesn't mean one is better than the other. Zerg can make 10 infestors at once with larvae saved up. And insta fungals when out. Fresh warp in HT needs energy to storm. Fresh made ghost rallys to the army, then has EMP energy and a bit more (travel time). 6) is still non logic. HT only completely denies drops when the medivac has more energy than it has it has hp. Otherwise warp in cycle is needed to deny the remainder of units inside. You'll need to tie up at least 8 supply (3 zealot warp + 1 ht) to counter the drop. If you tie up 8 supply of mm, you essentially have same counter to warp prism drop (which is significantly weaker relative to medivac drop, unless playing risky storm drops/immortal drops) 7) Pro Terrans in late game get ridiculous number of barracks and addons. (good late game terrans get upwards of 7 reactor rax and 7 techrax on 4 base.) Your comment of lifting/switching rax is only done early/mid game, and not practical late game. Easier to throw down multiple rax in advance with the MULE mechanic giving large surplus of minerals. And late game terran post ups doesn't require a lot of gas, so gas cost is irrelevant. 9) This is simply wrong. To get HT: You need gate->cyber(warp gate)->twilight council -> templar archive-> storm upgrade To get ghost: You need barracks(and tech lab) -> ghost academy -> ghost energy -> ghost cloak ->(optional factory ->nuke) Full High Templar with all the upgrade takes longer and still costs more after the Full ghost tech. Also, it's heavier on gas, which is vital to any strong protoss play (Robo/upgrades/Templar) So based on what the pros are saying, and what those of us who play both are saying, what is your theory as to why we find templar easier than ghosts? Other than the obvious reasons, do you have a thought as to why this would be? If so I would love to hear it, because I wouldn't mind winning a TvP late game once in awhile, and I would likewise enjoy the challenge of PvT late game that involves something more than me hitting shift+t-t-t- a-move, pylon, win. Because right now, this is how it goes 80-90% of the time. Late game TvP is basically Terran picking away at the power units and hitting where the death ball isn't. Terran army is superior in smaller number relative to the smaller number of protoss "death ball." You use vikings to pick away at colossus from a good point (over chasm/over cliffs). And use ghosts to snipe away any Parting style HTs (Individual HTs just roaming and storming the main army). Well you may argue that this is implausible because the deathball is always moving together. That's why you send small number of forces (25 supply or so: 12ish marines, 4 marauders and 2 medivacs, this is about the supply count you can replenish within one cycle of production off the raxes on 3 saturated base, and you can usually save the medivacs.) to make the deathball to move around. Since HT/Collosi move slower than the rest of the army, it gives you opportunities to kill those key units. IF the protoss plays it safe and tries to keep the deathball together, your 25 supply or so of MMM can easily snipe a nexus/key structures. Also, 25 supply of MMM is hard to kill with one warp in cycle of equivalent gateway units. Another scenario is a base race. MMMVG kills protoss base faster than terran can, but this turns out to who plays smarter since terran can save more production facility/OCs with floating and resume production quicker. And this is quite fair PvT imho. So basically late game TvP is a match of how you engage, and current plays seen by a lot of unsuccessful Terrans is trying to straight up fight Protoss deathball to Terran ball. It's tough to pull that off. (mass EMP + target firing colossi with vikings +good kiting with MM) You have to pull a Thorzain and kill the protoss with a spoon in an agonizing gruesome death by doing small hitsquads to keep protoss contained, while you get more bases and production. Almost a Zerg-esque late game mentality.
The problem with a "containtment strategy" is protoss can do the same strategy except with more powerful units that require less apm. A warpprism warping in a round of chargelots at the production facilities does way more damage and is harder to defend against a small hit squad of marine and marauder which require alot of attention. Your talking about out strategising the protoss to win but if you are relatively equal in skill level the protoss has an advantage in the apm required for his units and cost efficiency of his units. Basically what you are saying is you need to have more apm and better tactics to beat protoss..
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I think wha'ts going to happen is a nerf to templars and storm.
Lets be honest, those two things are not that prevaliant in the other matchups. it's only in TvP that it is really used quite a bit (yeah yeah storming mutas as they come in your base and stuff etc etc).
Despite blizzards stance on this the matchup is not balanced at all. What happens when you don't get that advantage that blizzard talks about in the midgame? Protoss have been dealing with our timings for a long time and they're extemely good at defending them easily now. So what? There isn't much else we can do really. We can't transition out (it's not as easy as having two robos up to chrono out collosus. Hell our upgrades dont even cover the same units) and anytime we do it's an all-in.
So...That leaves the biggest source of our problems in TvP. Storm. Storm landing or us missing a single templar and the battle being over because of one storm landing on our army. Kite out? yeah of course we do. You still did a TON of damage and had your other units attacking at the same time. It's a huge problem and it's not as easy as just dodging them constantly because the battle is over soon as we mis-micro slightly and eat 1/2 of the storms damage.
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo.
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On May 05 2012 14:19 Talack wrote:
I think wha'ts going to happen is a nerf to templars and storm.
Lets be honest, those two things are not that prevaliant in the other matchups. it's only in TvP that it is really used quite a bit (yeah yeah storming mutas as they come in your base and stuff etc etc).
Despite blizzards stance on this the matchup is not balanced at all. What happens when you don't get that advantage that blizzard talks about in the midgame? Protoss have been dealing with our timings for a long time and they're extemely good at defending them easily now. So what? There isn't much else we can do really. We can't transition out (it's not as easy as having two robos up to chrono out collosus. Hell our upgrades dont even cover the same units) and anytime we do it's an all-in.
So...That leaves the biggest source of our problems in TvP. Storm. Storm landing or us missing a single templar and the battle being over because of one storm landing on our army. Kite out? yeah of course we do. You still did a TON of damage and had your other units attacking at the same time. It's a huge problem and it's not as easy as just dodging them constantly because the battle is over soon as we mis-micro slightly and eat 1/2 of the storms damage.
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo.
Rerember when they remove Khaidaren Amulet?
Protoss were bitching like crazy and say it will break the game in favor of terran etc etc.
It was a smart move by Blizzard though and toss players has gotten much better.
Lategame TvP is a problem though. I think nerfing storm damage by a bit will be okay.
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Holy shit so much overreaction!
Blizzard very calmly and professionally commentated on the current state of the game. Yes, there is a protoss lategame advantage. But they're just letting the community know what's up, AND affirming that if they have too, WILL make changes to balance this.
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On May 05 2012 14:34 Kaminate wrote:
Holy shit so much overreaction!
Blizzard very calmly and professionally commentated on the current state of the game. Yes, there is a protoss lategame advantage. But they're just letting the community know what's up, AND affirming that if they have too, WILL make changes to balance this.
So their changes to balance this include speeding up observer build time so that Terran will face more immortals and colosus in the late game?
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I think saying stuff like "if you dont have an advantage going into the lategame as terran you have basically already lost" is complete bullshit tbh. You need to have a lot of patience and wait for the right time to engage. You should also have a few extra orbitals and sack scvs,and thus have a way bigger army supply than the protoss. Looking for observers to snipe is cruical as well. I feel like nukes are a bit underused in this matchup. Multiple nukes at different locations is a great way to slowly gain small advantages in the lategame.
Its not imbalanced at all, in my opinion.
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So basically Bliz saying late game Terran only option to win is containing Protoss to dead lol
I mean, face it, there's no way for Terran to come back if Protoss can get an army of equal value (which cost less than Terran).
Late game Terran is horrible. TvP suck, TvZ is slightly better.
And I can't believe people hang on stupid argument "Terran must do XXX early game to prevent that" - which are very gambling in most case. I mean, in 1 long term match Terran must harass more than 1 right? And every harassment comes with a huge risk.
Harassing is not free, and defending against harassment is not impossible. If you can kill a Medivac full of units Terran will be far way behind (if you can deny it, Terran will be behind already)
Look at PvZ, Zerg army is even stronger than Protoss and for a while, late game PvZ was impossible. Solution? Mothership!
The flaw of Mothership however that the whole game end with a bang and that's it, and I think it's not good for competative gameplay.
Look at ZvP and ZvT, beside the WinLord what does Zerg need? Infestor
And TvZ, at first we rely on Ghosts, now, maybe, the Ravens.
Look at all those matchups, we will see some reliable units that, not to win, but be able to turn the game. It holds everything together. We can also look at BW with all of its OP units.
Eh... now look at TvP what reliable units do Terran have?
Planetary Fortress :D
But really, that's not very reliable and very boring to watch. TvP imo is the most painful matchup to watch in the late game.
Tl;dr I think Terran needs (a) reliable unit(s) late game. An unit that can hold itself well under good support, allow Terran to safely pull off any transitions to counter lategame Protoss, allow Terran to make a comeback with good positioning.
(I'm thinking about making BC cheaper, faster but cost more Supplies)
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On May 05 2012 10:30 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:33 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 09:28 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 07:59 Fencer710 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 05:09 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:59 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:
[quote]
Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have. See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured. To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die. The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with early and mid-game. I'm talking about late-game. But anyways, go on and ignore me. You said that 'what if protoss attacks before you have critical mass of ghosts and vikings'. I said how to beat that and what time they usually push at. Are we on the same page here? No we are not. I implied that ghosts would be using their energy for cloaking and EMPs constantly in battle, so the possibility of them having 30 EMPs ready and being able to shoot all of them out (without getting feedbacked in succession by a few HTs as well) during the time you actually face the death ball isn't that high commonly. Unless you keep your ghosts away for the length of time to get them all to max their energy, which would be absolutely retarded, because you have to utilize the ghosts strengths as much as you can whenever they're available. I guess I should have spelled that out. Anyway, you're really not helping regarding what to do when it's already the late-game. And to begin with, I only popped up in this thread to laugh at how futile full-mech was on TvP. So thanks, but no thanks. Also, the people above were being sarcastic if you didn't notice. It probably stemmed from you sounding like a smartass thinking that you know better. Good day. T_T Sorry, I'm bad at seeing sarcasm in black and white text. Where dem replays at?? I'm not sure what you're talking about. :\ In reference to a previous post, those Terran players who are having trouble in TvP late-game and believe it is 'imba' if you will, I have posted a guide in the strategy section: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=335051 You said you get stomped lategame PvT... but you're a Terran player? Also the guide is pretty elementary, you don't mention anything novel or unique to your style (except maybe getting all the building ups). Any part where you might have explained something you just linked to a Day9 video. Overall, everything in that guide is stuff any diamond+ Terran is doing.
http://drop.sc/169864
New TvP bonjowa replay.... it's not worth to watch it anyway .... he can't do what he said ,everything is theorycraft and failytale sigh .....
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On May 05 2012 15:19 Tailss wrote:
I think saying stuff like "if you dont have an advantage going into the lategame as terran you have basically already lost" is complete bullshit tbh. You need to have a lot of patience and wait for the right time to engage. You should also have a few extra orbitals and sack scvs,and thus have a way bigger army supply than the protoss. Looking for observers to snipe is cruical as well. I feel like nukes are a bit underused in this matchup. Multiple nukes at different locations is a great way to slowly gain small advantages in the lategame.
Its not imbalanced at all, in my opinion.
I agree, Terran should either play super aggressive to gain a decisive advantage or win during mid game, or turtle to the point when he can sac all his scvs save gas ones and gain a 40 supply army lead while harassing with nukes and small hit squads so his army can still fight effectively given a superiority in position.
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On May 05 2012 14:19 Talack wrote:
....
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo.
Sure, as long as Terran gets an early game nerf to accompany it. You cant have your cake and eat it too.
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People are seeing this the wrong way. All they're saying is that Terran has to get into the late game against Protoss with a macro advantage. You don't have to all-in the Protoss at 15 mins. You just have to do damage to him so that you don't go into the late game with equal macro.
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
Yet, neither of these match-ups are symmetrically balanced. Zerg has to have a macro advantage - being up in bases, workers, and gas income - in order to beat Terran and Protoss mid and late-game. A Zerg on equal bases, workers, and gas income is at a massive disadvantage mid and late game.
Zerg is able to obtain this macro advantage because they are better mid game. They are able to create a huge drone count rapidly. They are able to take expansions with ease. They are able to prevent their opponents from being greedy with their ability to throw a huge amount of units at multiple locations. A Zerg on three bases by the 5:00 mark is standard. Protoss and Terran are not able to do this.
The entire match-up in ZvT and ZvP is Terran and Protoss trying to disrupt Zerg in order to prevent Zerg from going into mid and late game with a huge macro advantage, because they know that when Zerg has no macro advantage mid and late game, Zerg dies. Terran is the same vs. Protoss. You have a mid game advantage in macro, unit efficiency, and mobility that allows you to disrupt the Protoss and to stop them from going into late game with equal macro. Zerg has to do this against Terran and Protoss - what's wrong with requiring Terran to do it too?
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On May 05 2012 14:33 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 14:19 Talack wrote:
I think wha'ts going to happen is a nerf to templars and storm.
Lets be honest, those two things are not that prevaliant in the other matchups. it's only in TvP that it is really used quite a bit (yeah yeah storming mutas as they come in your base and stuff etc etc).
Despite blizzards stance on this the matchup is not balanced at all. What happens when you don't get that advantage that blizzard talks about in the midgame? Protoss have been dealing with our timings for a long time and they're extemely good at defending them easily now. So what? There isn't much else we can do really. We can't transition out (it's not as easy as having two robos up to chrono out collosus. Hell our upgrades dont even cover the same units) and anytime we do it's an all-in.
So...That leaves the biggest source of our problems in TvP. Storm. Storm landing or us missing a single templar and the battle being over because of one storm landing on our army. Kite out? yeah of course we do. You still did a TON of damage and had your other units attacking at the same time. It's a huge problem and it's not as easy as just dodging them constantly because the battle is over soon as we mis-micro slightly and eat 1/2 of the storms damage.
So... nerf storm and templars : / It's honestly very fair imo. Rerember when they remove Khaidaren Amulet? Protoss were bitching like crazy and say it will break the game in favor of terran etc etc. It was a smart move by Blizzard though and toss players has gotten much better. Lategame TvP is a problem though. I think nerfing storm damage by a bit will be okay.
They could always do it like fungal and make it something like 7(+3 armored) per 0.5 second. That way it only helps marines, probably enough they can take an extra hit from a zealot/stalker. The only drawback might be mutas in PvZ.
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What about adding ravens to the mix in late game? HSM is pretty sick. Imagine emp cloud all over him and then a few HSMs to soften it up. It's not like your lacking gas at that point anyway.
Anyway just a thought might just throw it out there, too much negativity in this thread IMO xd
Maybe hellions in the back would be worth the money?
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On May 05 2012 16:11 Azarkon wrote:
People are seeing this the wrong way. All they're saying is that Terran has to get into the late game against Protoss with a macro advantage. You don't have to all-in the Protoss at 15 mins. You just have to do damage to him so that you don't go into the late game with equal macro.
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
Yet, neither of these match-ups are symmetrically balanced. Zerg has to have a macro advantage - being up in bases, workers, and gas income - in order to beat Terran and Protoss mid and late-game. A Zerg on equal bases, workers, and gas income is at a massive disadvantage mid and late game.
Zerg is able to obtain this macro advantage because they are better mid game. They are able to create a huge drone count rapidly. They are able to take expansions with ease. They are able to prevent their opponents from being greedy with their ability to throw a huge amount of units at multiple locations. A Zerg on three bases by the 5:00 mark is standard. Protoss and Terran are not able to do this.
The entire match-up in ZvT and ZvP is Terran and Protoss trying to disrupt Zerg in order to prevent Zerg from going into mid and late game with a huge macro advantage, because they know that when Zerg has no macro advantage mid and late game, Zerg dies. Terran is the same vs. Protoss. You have a mid game advantage in macro, unit efficiency, and mobility that allows you to disrupt the Protoss and to stop them from going into late game with equal macro. Zerg has to do this against Terran and Protoss - what's wrong with requiring Terran to do it too?
I couldn't have put it better myself.
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On May 05 2012 16:28 Spoogymcgee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 16:11 Azarkon wrote:
People are seeing this the wrong way. All they're saying is that Terran has to get into the late game against Protoss with a macro advantage. You don't have to all-in the Protoss at 15 mins. You just have to do damage to him so that you don't go into the late game with equal macro.
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
Yet, neither of these match-ups are symmetrically balanced. Zerg has to have a macro advantage - being up in bases, workers, and gas income - in order to beat Terran and Protoss mid and late-game. A Zerg on equal bases, workers, and gas income is at a massive disadvantage mid and late game.
Zerg is able to obtain this macro advantage because they are better mid game. They are able to create a huge drone count rapidly. They are able to take expansions with ease. They are able to prevent their opponents from being greedy with their ability to throw a huge amount of units at multiple locations. A Zerg on three bases by the 5:00 mark is standard. Protoss and Terran are not able to do this.
The entire match-up in ZvT and ZvP is Terran and Protoss trying to disrupt Zerg in order to prevent Zerg from going into mid and late game with a huge macro advantage, because they know that when Zerg has no macro advantage mid and late game, Zerg dies. Terran is the same vs. Protoss. You have a mid game advantage in macro, unit efficiency, and mobility that allows you to disrupt the Protoss and to stop them from going into late game with equal macro. Zerg has to do this against Terran and Protoss - what's wrong with requiring Terran to do it too? I couldn't have put it better myself.
Because terran is not ahead on protoss on bases like zerg is. Actually with partings build its the protoss who can get 3 bases quicker than the terran. Please have good knowledge of the metagame when theorycrafting.
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On May 05 2012 16:11 Azarkon wrote:
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
No this is totally different than the zerg match up. If you force an engagement vs zerg in early / mid game you force them to make units instead of drones. This means that if the army trade goes about even you have the benefit of slowing down the zerg macro machine.
No such thing happens vs toss, the clock is not ticking any slower for the terran if he trades armies vs toss.
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On May 05 2012 16:25 MorroW wrote:
What about adding ravens to the mix in late game? HSM is pretty sick. Imagine emp cloud all over him and then a few HSMs to soften it up. It's not like your lacking gas at that point anyway.
Anyway just a thought might just throw it out there, too much negativity in this thread IMO xd
Maybe hellions in the back would be worth the money?
Feedbacks make Ravens WAY too weak and cost too much. Hunter Seeker Missile needs 125 energy. raven has 150. Unless a person uses HSM at 125 energy exactly, its most likely ravens get 1 hit KO'd.
Hellions should definitely be mixed in.
Current TvP is bullshit. Not EVERYONE can have MKP micro. And even when MKP plays, do you see how much harder MKP (or ANY terran) has to work than the Protoss they face? Ugh.
#rage
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On May 05 2012 16:11 Azarkon wrote:
People are seeing this the wrong way. All they're saying is that Terran has to get into the late game against Protoss with a macro advantage. You don't have to all-in the Protoss at 15 mins. You just have to do damage to him so that you don't go into the late game with equal macro.
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
Yet, neither of these match-ups are symmetrically balanced. Zerg has to have a macro advantage - being up in bases, workers, and gas income - in order to beat Terran and Protoss mid and late-game. A Zerg on equal bases, workers, and gas income is at a massive disadvantage mid and late game.
Zerg is able to obtain this macro advantage because they are better mid game. They are able to create a huge drone count rapidly. They are able to take expansions with ease. They are able to prevent their opponents from being greedy with their ability to throw a huge amount of units at multiple locations. A Zerg on three bases by the 5:00 mark is standard. Protoss and Terran are not able to do this.
The entire match-up in ZvT and ZvP is Terran and Protoss trying to disrupt Zerg in order to prevent Zerg from going into mid and late game with a huge macro advantage, because they know that when Zerg has no macro advantage mid and late game, Zerg dies. Terran is the same vs. Protoss. You have a mid game advantage in macro, unit efficiency, and mobility that allows you to disrupt the Protoss and to stop them from going into late game with equal macro. Zerg has to do this against Terran and Protoss - what's wrong with requiring Terran to do it too?
my issue is
the way it feels right now (and this could be meta game where it's at or a balance problem, I'm not ready to say)
once protoss gets all of its tech, usually on 3 base, the macro advantage doesn't actually matter anymore. z needs more bases but once T hits 3 it's not game over. z can take 5 and deny T's 4th and the game gets fought over that, etc.
once P hits three their army becomes really incredible... doing any damage at that point requires, again according to my current view of the match (along with some others clearly), a mistake by the protoss. if they don't make that mistake T can take all the bases they want, they can't kill the army and they can't stop the toss from taking their bases as well.
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On May 05 2012 16:11 Azarkon wrote:
People are seeing this the wrong way. All they're saying is that Terran has to get into the late game against Protoss with a macro advantage. You don't have to all-in the Protoss at 15 mins. You just have to do damage to him so that you don't go into the late game with equal macro.
This is no different from Zerg in their match-ups. ZvT and ZvP are two of the best match-ups in SC 2. Early game, mid game, late game - players are able to win with Zerg at every stage. The match-ups are dynamic and strategically varied. They reward great players and lead to great viewing experiences.
Yet, neither of these match-ups are symmetrically balanced. Zerg has to have a macro advantage - being up in bases, workers, and gas income - in order to beat Terran and Protoss mid and late-game. A Zerg on equal bases, workers, and gas income is at a massive disadvantage mid and late game.
Zerg is able to obtain this macro advantage because they are better mid game. They are able to create a huge drone count rapidly. They are able to take expansions with ease. They are able to prevent their opponents from being greedy with their ability to throw a huge amount of units at multiple locations. A Zerg on three bases by the 5:00 mark is standard. Protoss and Terran are not able to do this.
The entire match-up in ZvT and ZvP is Terran and Protoss trying to disrupt Zerg in order to prevent Zerg from going into mid and late game with a huge macro advantage, because they know that when Zerg has no macro advantage mid and late game, Zerg dies. Terran is the same vs. Protoss. You have a mid game advantage in macro, unit efficiency, and mobility that allows you to disrupt the Protoss and to stop them from going into late game with equal macro. Zerg has to do this against Terran and Protoss - what's wrong with requiring Terran to do it too?
What you are not seeing is that pressure and posture is enough to sufficiently slow down a Zerg. Forcing him to build units is enough, because their units are short lived in their usefulness AND every unit is not a drone.
A protoss sees you, feels a little uncomfortable, but continues probe production and warps in the same units that he will already need later. You very very rarely see a protoss warping in additional sentries (which would actually slow the tech), because he got X sentries when he was expanding (and was needing the minerals) and now can use those sentries to defend. New sentries are not that useful because they require time to gather energy.
It follows, that if you camp at the ramp of the protoss base without actually damaging economy/tech, the effect is WAY less than if you move out against a Zerg.
Now if zealots were utter trash in the late game, then this strategy would make sense. You force him to warp in units that are bad later. But zealots go into beast mode and become exactly the tanks a toss needs.
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I'm seriously lol'ing at these whines about storm.
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EPT
