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On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more.
I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^.
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Morale of the story, people have really poor reading comprehension skills, or are purposefully reading what they want to read from Blizzard's response.
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On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^.
MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though.
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On May 05 2012 11:41 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^. MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though.
It's not that bad in the foreign scene. In fact, Terran has a neglible 1% advantage.
SourceSource
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On May 05 2012 11:41 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^. MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though.
Yeah, and Squirtle and HerO both said "the better player wins" in their interviews regarding PvT. Meanwhile, Puzzle, in his interview, said Protoss is "definitely not" OP. Citing what pros say is pointless because pros are just as biased as the rest of us despite their knowledge. And why wouldn't they be? Their livelihoods depend on this game's balance.
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On May 05 2012 11:41 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^. MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though.
Presumably you're referring to MVP's interview after winning against Naniwa in which he says something like "Protoss is strong right now," even though he's obviously referring to the players, not the race. MVP is notorious for not stooping to the level of balance QQ.
I don't recall when MMA last QQed, but then, he got knocked out of the GSL fairly early this time around so I haven't heard from him in awhile.
I do trust you, though. You are, after all, present to act smug and upset in every thread remotely associated with TvP balance.
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On May 05 2012 11:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:41 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^. MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though. Presumably you're referring to MVP's interview after winning against Naniwa in which he says something like "Protoss is strong right now," even though he's obviously referring to the players, not the race. MVP is notorious for not stooping to the level of balance QQ. I don't recall when MMA last QQed, but then, he got knocked out of the GSL fairly early this time around so I haven't heard from him in awhile. I do trust you, though. You are, after all, present to act smug and upset in every thread remotely associated with TvP balance.
Just as I thought. You say you don't trust that pros are speaking up. Someone names 4 who have been very vocal, and just a small group of many Terran pros who think the same. You disregard that because you don't respect foreign players. Someone shows you Korean pros who are saying the same thing, and have been for months. Suddenly you decide that hey, we actually shouldn't trust any pro gamer's words because they are all biased. I don't even know why I argue with all the plat Toss. GG you win.
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Well, I agree you have to take things progamers said with a grain of salt since they are obviously going to be looking out for their best interest. Even HerO said protoss is strong but not OP.
As with regards to MVP, I think about a month ago on the IM stream, he played Inori and lost twice using his T. Then he proceeded to beat Inori with BOTH P and Z. Of course, MVP is pretty known for his strong off racing skills (along with MC) and Inori might not have taken the game as seriously since MVP is offracing. But it is still interesting. I also think Taeja didn't even want to play TvP a while back. But I think the pros knew this was coming even when terrans were so strong early/mid game. They realized that if that early/mid game was taken away (which the new maps kind of did), they would have problems late game.
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This was awesome! not the OP, but blizzards statement. Terran doesnt have to win in the first 15 minutes, but right now the meta game is such that they must be aggressive or use harrasment to SLOW down the toss.
They cant turtle up and allow toss to do whatever.
This is just like how Toss had to play Zerg before FFE. They had to force zerg to make units or they would be overrunned.
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On May 05 2012 12:08 covote wrote:
This was awesome! not the OP, but blizzards statement. Terran doesnt have to win in the first 15 minutes, but right now the meta game is such that they must be aggressive or use harrasment to SLOW down the toss.
They cant turtle up and allow toss to do whatever.
This is just like how Toss had to play Zerg before FFE. They had to force zerg to make units or they would be overrunned.
I don't like the way they worded it because you're not slowing toss down as far as tech or upgrades or maxed army. It is that you're preventing them from getting a perfect army of Immortal, Archon, Colossi, VR, Templar at 200/200. You're forcing them to create a weaker army that matches yours.
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On May 05 2012 11:59 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:50 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:41 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 11:18 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 11:17 captainwaffles wrote:On May 05 2012 11:07 Shiori wrote:On May 05 2012 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On May 05 2012 10:43 Heavenlee wrote:
I loved complaining in the sad zealot days all the time (you know, when it was much more terran-favored than it is protoss-favored now) so I understand the appeal. I just hope you guys realize that your constant ten page extremely biased essays on the strength of high templar versus ghosts are meaningless and you're just doing it to hear yourself whine. You aren't going to convince anyone and in fact most of this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about protoss then other terrans going "yes, I agree, let me also expand on this point of why this game is RETARDED". It's just completely unproductive nonsense and anytime someone proposes anything it gets completely shut down with theorycrafting.
Also look into the possibility that you are just complete garbage at the matchup and all those people agreeing with you, are just because they are the vocal amount that are also bad at it. There's been multiple terran pros that have been vocal about TvP so if they're "complete garbage" at the matchup I guess we shouldn't ever talk about balance right? I'm genuinely curious as to who these pros are. I've yet to hear a top Korean complain in a serious interview. No, Ganzi trolling his chat on stream doesn't count :p. Not trying to flame you, as I really don't know who said what. Please let me know. Jinro BeastyQT Kas qxc (although he also always follows up with "it doesn't matter, part of my job being a pro... etc") Thats off the top of my head, can't think of anyone else atm but if you search you'll find more. I take foreigner opinions in general with a grain of salt, but thanks for letting me know ^^. MVP and MMA have both commented on TvP being Protoss favored. It's been said about 30 times in every thread even remotely about TvP. I'm sure you'll find a reason to disregard that though. Presumably you're referring to MVP's interview after winning against Naniwa in which he says something like "Protoss is strong right now," even though he's obviously referring to the players, not the race. MVP is notorious for not stooping to the level of balance QQ. I don't recall when MMA last QQed, but then, he got knocked out of the GSL fairly early this time around so I haven't heard from him in awhile. I do trust you, though. You are, after all, present to act smug and upset in every thread remotely associated with TvP balance. Just as I thought. You say you don't trust that pros are speaking up. Someone names 4 who have been very vocal, and just a small group of many Terran pros who think the same. You disregard that because you don't respect foreign players. Someone shows you Korean pros who are saying the same thing, and have been for months. Suddenly you decide that hey, we actually shouldn't trust any pro gamer's words because they are all biased. I don't even know why I argue with all the plat Toss. GG you win.
Before you act all self-righteously exasperated, maybe you should address why Toss pros are simultaneously claiming that TvP is fine while Terran pros claim that it's not fine. Clearly, someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong, because those claims are polar opposites. So, unless you have some extremely compelling argument on why Terran pros are somehow more trustworthy than Toss pros, there's no point in bring up what pros say because it's clear that their perceptions of balance and the race they play are in tandem.
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How do you figure? A minute 10 drop probably coincides with immortal production. If and when the protoss makes a mixed bag of zealot and stalker in a timely manner, which is probably their ideal response at the time, they are probably going to delay upgrades or support bay or something similar as a result. Ideal composition comes much, much later.
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They could do SO many things to make things both more exciting and fair (to be sure, more exciting is more important).
Remove combat shield and buff tanks.
Remove Marauders and buff tanks.
Remove Concussive Shells and buff tanks
All of the above and buff tanks.
Then we'd see more phoenix and immortals as well so both sides would be more interesting.
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I think blizzard doesn't want to allocate the needed resources currently to fix it; it wouldn't be worth it. They're just going to wait for HOTS before they try to re balance it. Also, they believe that with the new hellion transformation, mech will be much more viable.
My point, they're just going to wait for HOTS.
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On May 05 2012 12:06 vthree wrote:
Well, I agree you have to take things progamers said with a grain of salt since they are obviously going to be looking out for their best interest. Even HerO said protoss is strong but not OP.
As with regards to MVP, I think about a month ago on the IM stream, he played Inori and lost twice using his T. Then he proceeded to beat Inori with BOTH P and Z. Of course, MVP is pretty known for his strong off racing skills (along with MC) and Inori might not have taken the game as seriously since MVP is offracing. But it is still interesting. I also think Taeja didn't even want to play TvP a while back. But I think the pros knew this was coming even when terrans were so strong early/mid game. They realized that if that early/mid game was taken away (which the new maps kind of did), they would have problems late game.
I rerember Grubby comment during 2v2 in MLG that Koreans had top off-racing skill and MC terran is top50 Korean GM level.
Well,protoss are doing freaking well currently in the GSL.
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On May 05 2012 12:49 HighLach wrote:
I think blizzard doesn't want to allocate the needed resources currently to fix it; it wouldn't be worth it. They're just going to wait for HOTS before they try to re balance it. Also, they believe that with the new hellion transformation, mech will be much more viable.
My point, they're just going to wait for HOTS.
HOTS will coming out most likely in 1 year time or 1year/half.
They got Diablo 3 and WOW Mist of Pandaria coming up.
So yeah are you telling the Terrans to wait till HOTS to fixed it?
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45 pages of balance whine makes for an absolutely appalling read, but the really sad thing is that practically every other sc2 topic on this site is ALSO 45 pages of TvP balance whine. Blizzard's statement was fine and makes sense to me, but people are going to find something wrong as much as possible if it helps them seem like better players or gives them an excuse.
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On May 05 2012 12:39 0neder wrote:
They could do SO many things to make things both more exciting and fair (to be sure, more exciting is more important).
Remove combat shield and buff tanks.
Remove Marauders and buff tanks.
Remove Concussive Shells and buff tanks
All of the above and buff tanks.
Then we'd see more phoenix and immortals as well so both sides would be more interesting.
You have the right idea but I think we should try to stray from removing things and lean more towards tweaking.
Think about something along these lines:
Marines start with -1 range.
New upgrade at reactor 100/100 to give +1 range for marines.
Siege tanks +10 damage to all units across the board in siege mode (60 total)
Siege mode upgrade -10 seconds
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the biggest problem with the matchup imo is that terran really has to have SUPERB micro with not only their bio, but also vikings + ghosts (3 controls groups, maybe 2) while protoss basically only has to have their HTs dodge EMPs. I feel like the amount of micro needed is just silly when you compare the kiting + emp + ff on vikings compared to more or less A moving with storm.
but i'm terran so biased
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BALANCE and TVP
The balancing teams approach to the match up is flawed. "Assymetric" but then why is it then when terran expos, protoss 1base allins are also strong and easy to execute eg voidray allin, 1b colloso, blink obs, any gateway rush, immortal pushes? Terran has to scout it, build the right amount of bunkers in the right locations build turrets and pull scvs. That is a lot of work for defence. TVP is a matchup that needs to be balanced the entire length of the game, only zerg is the assymetric race.
Suggestions for balance and reasoning:
Ghost emp radius reverted back to original and QXCs suggestion for snipe- why this was nerfed in the first place seems it was due to pressure ie someone in charge who looked at the stats and wanted to create "artificial balance" so that the stats come out looking "balanced". That is more of a spread in win ratios across the 3 races and not just terran.
Blizzard you need to take into account that certain races may just have better players overall.
I repeat
Blizzard you need to take into account that certain races may just have better players overall.
You cant assume that each race has players of equal skill. Stats can be skewed to misrepresent information and is NOT PROOF. Balancing needs to be based on GAME KNOWLEDGE and NOT STATS. Consider the skills necessary to play each of the races and the degree of difficulty of execution (APM required) at each stage of the game.
Reverting immortal range buff- again why the range for immortals was buffed i it seems was because of the 1/1/1 which in itself shows how protosses were definitely slower strategically and tactically. Who were the better protoss players during this time? Hongeun prime, Trickster, Killer, Homersimpson dude from prime, San, MC. These players were the code S protosses during that time and i think its unanimous that apart from MC they are relatively mediocre players (no offence).
Protoss is meant to be a race that focuses on unit control yet theyre units are all easy to control (am i alone in thinking this?). This has the effect of making protoss players in general require less skill, even if they are skillful players. The sheer APM required for the other 2 races puts protoss at an advantage (it is a fact that protoss requires the least apm to play).
Warpgate cd nerf - Instant reinforcing detracts from the strategic elements of the game. There should be some duration of time for units to warp eg 5 seconds at the pylon. This forces protoss to play more of a positional game, not this instant reinforcing which is faster than zerg. Gateway units are not weak they just need to be microed well.
These are some suggestions which i think would help the match up and help other match ups. Some other approaches may to strengthen terran t3. In any case I think the community would agree with me that tvp should be a match up balanced the entire duration of the game. Protoss has no problem defending with correct usage of obs and unit splits.
IMHO the balancing team should be able to commit to the game and it should be mandatory that anyone balancing the game can play at least 2 of the races at high masters level so that they understand the metagame and the relative difficulties of race mechanics. So dividing the balance team into masters level teams of tz, tp zp. Dual race feedback is more important as it eliminates alot of bias.
A note as a consumer
This huge imbalance in TVP is what is making me quit watching even the GSL and play anymore. Im finding it to be more of a waste of time because of the huge disparity in balance. Despite this i really enjoyed sc2 last year so i stick around on these forums looking out for balance changes. But its been 2 seasons now and i keep losing interest (my friends also). Everyone who knows the game knows protoss is imba (sorry diamonds and under you guys are in those leagues because you dont quite get it) and by denying this blizzard just loses consumers. Remember - "The consumer is always right".
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EPT
