|
dude... what's with the childish unyielding arguments here?
fact in OP = blizzard admit protoss are better in lategame, but they think it's balanced by terran stronger midgame.
well, from a competitive standpoint it makes sense, because both sides have equal chance to win.... but what about a non-competitive terran standpoint where the player is not aware of this midgame window, or how to utilize it??? he expands and builds his army maybe even slightly better than the protoss, but just gets slaughtered every time because protoss endgame is better.
it's too unforgiving... and the matchup is crap boring because of it. i've lost interest already, after watching 4-5 hours of pro streams per evening for half a year, haven't watched a minute of streaming in the last couple of months... the game is just super stale since innovation and guile seems to be punished every time, where boring standard = win.
|
On May 05 2012 06:52 avilo wrote:
Obviously P isn't my main, but the point is, you shouldn't get a free advantage for simply sitting in your base chronoboosting upgrades / maxing out, and if that is the case the balance team needs to do something to allow Terran to have the same opportunity to play a defensive macro style.
Siege tanks, bunkers, PFs and turrets do pretty well for defense.
|
On May 05 2012 07:23 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:52 avilo wrote:
Obviously P isn't my main, but the point is, you shouldn't get a free advantage for simply sitting in your base chronoboosting upgrades / maxing out, and if that is the case the balance team needs to do something to allow Terran to have the same opportunity to play a defensive macro style. Siege tanks, bunkers, PFs and turrets do pretty well for defense.
Most cases of terran trying to outmacro protoss without any agression have blantly failed.
Look at aLive vs Genius ro4 game 1 on Emtombed Valley if you want to see how it work.
Protoss are just better at it, going for thing like fast 3 OC with 2 engi bay don't seems to work in TvP like it does in TvZ sometimes.
Not saying it's a bad thing tho. Terran need to make the protoss fight for getting tech / more bases.
|
On May 05 2012 07:23 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:52 avilo wrote:
Obviously P isn't my main, but the point is, you shouldn't get a free advantage for simply sitting in your base chronoboosting upgrades / maxing out, and if that is the case the balance team needs to do something to allow Terran to have the same opportunity to play a defensive macro style. Siege tanks, bunkers, PFs and turrets do pretty well for defense.
Herp derp.
Go ahead then. Play a master level protoss and try to sit on 3 bases building up a 200/200 mech army.
Post a link to the replay if you win.
I dare you to try
User was warned for this post
|
On May 05 2012 06:49 NHL Fever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:18 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:[B] Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous  Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. 1) Currently Storm area = EMP area. They are both 1.5 radius. (Liquipedia) Please check your facts before stating them as facts. 2) Templars cost heavier on gas, and overall is "cheaper" but Ghosts have passive attack ability, higher movespeed, researchable cloaking and anti-caster snipe. 3) Overgeneralization. Ghosts usually need to lead the terran army in engagements, scan to kill obs, then cloak and EMP. That way you guarantee hitting the major units. 4) Untrue. Snipe observers, then cloak. Protoss has no secondary detection method. Also, high templar into archon formation separated from main army equates to dead archons as well. Your logic, i'm sorry to say, is non sequitor in this case. 5) True, but High templar takes additonal 40 in game seconds to storm, whereas ghosts spawn with enough energy to EMP with the energy upgrade. 6) True, but different units are different. Templar can hold off drops, but same goes for small army of MM in base denies protoss drops too. 7) Tech lab builds relatively quickly and is cheap. The price of add-on is to accomodate for terran building's ability to float. 8) Somewhat true, but if the obs is in the centre of deathball, EMP-ing the army is easier because of the vision deficit. If observer is out too front of army, it is easy to kill the observer with scan and shoot. I'm sorry, different units may be different, but HT is not necessarily "better" than the ghost. 1) Ok fair enough, I'm mistaken. 2) Passive attack capability is useless for ghosts. If you are close enough to use it, you are about to lose all your ghosts and they are too valuable for general duty. No pros make any significant use of regular attack. Passive attack occurs in one circumstance - after you just lost your whole army, are getting overrun and ghosts could not run away. In such a circumstance, I'm not sure if they kill a single unit. 3) Its very hard to scan to kill obs when obs is within other army units. Usually you will die to collosus or zealots before close enough 4) Observers are not bio, snipe does work on them. It rarely matters that archon formation cannot move, as terran army is generally moving backwards during battles to kite, not forwards. I cannot remember the last time I lost any significant amount of archons while forming. 5) This is far outwieghed by the length of time it takes to build ghosts and get them to the battle. Fewer building make them, they need to build, then they need to walk there...slowly with no stim. 6) Yes but the sacrifice in units is less, and you need to kite your units if the drop is anything larger than 3 zealots taking up apm. 7) A rax has only 1 add-on at a time. If you constantly switch, you still only have as many tech lab as you built. If your idea of quick ghosts is to take time and tons of apm to suddently lift all rax from reactors, find space for them on the map, build tech labs, build ghosts (long), then bring ghosts to battle.....well you obviously don't play terran. Shift-spam hotkey for templar is scientifically speaking...about a million times faster than that. Which I happily benefit from when I get toss  8) No doubt I've emp'd my share of clumped deathballs. But the point is that if you emp 95% of the entire army, but miss a 2 or 3 key units elsewhere, you lose that battle. If you hit ANY decent chunk of terran ball with storm, that's a win folks. 9) I should add that ghosts need 2 upgrades, while templar need only storm to be extremely useful Anyway I'm not trying to apologize for terran, I don't care which race the game randomizes me too. I'm just saying that obviously players who play a certain race with ALWAYS see all the advantages of the other guys units, and I know from routine experience that templar are both easier to make and easier to use. Maybe with more time if I become expert, that gap may narrow. But jugding from gsl's the past few seasons, pros are finding the same thing.
2)/4) My terminology for use of "snipe" was to indicate regular attack by the ghost. It 3 shots obs with regular attack. My apologies. Also, a couple of vikings with scan takes obs out in 1 shot i believe.
3)/8) Seems to address a same point. I think this is an overstatement, and it depends on how the armies engage. That 2/3 units missed = lost game. It's matter of where you engage the protoss force. If you engage at a choke, you will lose even if you EMP everything and the protoss has colossi. If you engage in open space, you will win even if protoss has multiple storms left over. If the situation is bad, terran force can outrun protoss army.
5) is still a non point. Different race mechanics doesn't mean one is better than the other. Zerg can make 10 infestors at once with larvae saved up. And insta fungals when out. Fresh warp in HT needs energy to storm. Fresh made ghost rallys to the army, then has EMP energy and a bit more (travel time).
6) is still non logic. HT only completely denies drops when the medivac has more energy than it has it has hp. Otherwise warp in cycle is needed to deny the remainder of units inside. You'll need to tie up at least 8 supply (3 zealot warp + 1 ht) to counter the drop. If you tie up 8 supply of mm, you essentially have same counter to warp prism drop (which is significantly weaker relative to medivac drop, unless playing risky storm drops/immortal drops)
7) Pro Terrans in late game get ridiculous number of barracks and addons. (good late game terrans get upwards of 7 reactor rax and 7 techrax on 4 base.) Your comment of lifting/switching rax is only done early/mid game, and not practical late game. Easier to throw down multiple rax in advance with the MULE mechanic giving large surplus of minerals. And late game terran post ups doesn't require a lot of gas, so gas cost is irrelevant.
9) This is simply wrong. To get HT: You need gate->cyber(warp gate)->twilight council -> templar archive-> storm upgrade
To get ghost: You need barracks(and tech lab) -> ghost academy -> ghost energy -> ghost cloak ->(optional factory ->nuke)
Full High Templar with all the upgrade takes longer and still costs more after the Full ghost tech. Also, it's heavier on gas, which is vital to any strong protoss play (Robo/upgrades/Templar)
|
On May 05 2012 07:20 shizna wrote:
dude... what's with the childish unyielding arguments here?
fact in OP = blizzard admit protoss are better in lategame, but they think it's balanced by terran stronger midgame.
well, from a competitive standpoint it makes sense, because both sides have equal chance to win.... but what about a non-competitive terran standpoint where the player is not aware of this midgame window, or how to utilize it??? he expands and builds his army maybe even slightly better than the protoss, but just gets slaughtered every time because protoss endgame is better.
it's too unforgiving... and the matchup is crap boring because of it. i've lost interest already, after watching 4-5 hours of pro streams per evening for half a year, haven't watched a minute of streaming in the last couple of months... the game is just super stale since innovation and guile seems to be punished every time, where boring standard = win.
What? You want the game to be decided by "guile" instead of standard play which actually requires hard work and skill. Players do proxy builds all the time and they aren't that interesting.
|
My major gripe with the blizzard approach is the denial of strategy. In general aggression beats greed, greed beats turtle and turtle beat aggression. Protoss know, that terran has a strong phase in the game so they turtle. The problem is that Terrans cannot exploit this tendency, through mid game greed. This is because the protoss endgame composition is so cost efficient that giving protoss a free ride to that composition cannot (at least at my level) be overcome through superior economy. Three bases is all that protoss needs. Two bases is enough to get enough tech to forcefully grab a third.
Now due to the late game disadvantage, greed is out of the equation and Terran is forced to attack into the turtle - which just doesn't work out. For balance reasons there cannot be an attack that beats a turteling opponent. Else this attack would always win. Therefore balance changes have been made to nerf various terran attacks. The problem now is that terran has only very little way to utilize an economic lead the way zerg can. Protoss tech just beats Terran late game. So setting yourself up for a good late game will just prolong the inevitable.
@desarrisc:
Cloak is only useful if the protoss is caught with too few observers. Else you just have 2 obs with the army, each one following a colossus and the HT BEHIND the colossus. Stalkers that protect the colossus protect the obs this way as well. It is enough to cast storm after the colossus are dead. By then the ghosts are dead too due to no kiting ability and front line placement.
|
On May 05 2012 07:06 yoigen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:53 babyToSS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:22 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 06:04 klops wrote:On May 05 2012 05:47 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 05:43 Joedaddy wrote:
My biggest and only complaint in TvP is that I dislike being forced into gimmicky 1 and 2 base all in type play. Why can't both races have an equal opportunity to win (when on equal footing) in the early, mid, and late game?
I guess that the common theme of "win before 15m or don't win at all" can't really be construed as balance whine now, can it? You aren't. Try taking an early third and you are fine to go. brilliant analysis. please do more in the future. I don't know about you, but it has been working very well for me and progamers such as Kas do it alot aswell. And Kas is pretty good at TvP. I watch Kas' stream a lot. He hates TvP and believes late game to be heavily protoss favored. Honestly Blizzard is simply reiterating what everyone knew. Anyone who has played a decent amount of macro TvPs as both races knows the match up design is complete crap (win rates be damned, who cares about 50/50 if its boring to play and watch). Build order advantages are too strong, toss gateway units suck and to compensate tech is too strong. Toss cannot leave his natural on gateway units unless being super aggressive and once toss gets a lot of supply in tech, terran doesnt have any answer apart from dancing around the map waiting for toss to make a mistake. Every TvP is the exact same thing again and again. Yet it is still statistically his best matchup and he just 2-1d Titan, 3-0d Socke and 3-1d Grubby in takes tournament. I also remember him saying tvp lategame is hard, but do-able. Obviously there is no point in discussing anything regarding balance on tl, gl keep on whining while I beat protoss, because I don't have this shitty attitude nearly every terran nowadays has. If you lose, you gotta try harder.
Oh I do try quite a lot and win/lose my share of TvPs. Doesn't mean I don't see obvious flaws with the match up's design. Trying and complaining about apparent flaws in game design don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't get why people have this stigma associated with talking about potential game design problems. Its not like Blizzard has a history of being perfect.
|
When they mentioned briefly the other day that they were monitoring the TvP MU, I got my hopes up. Alas...
Seriously though, I think the philosophy behind this statement is pretty flawed. The idea that it's fine that some races are almost always inherently stronger in certain stages of the game leads to a more streamlined metagame with fewer options for each race.
As the MU is balanced now, Terran are encouraged to attack early, while Protoss are encouraged to defend. A terran player trying to go for a longer macro game or a Protoss attacking early from two bases will have a serious disadvantage. This leads to less variation, as players of both races are forced down a narrow path of action rather than having a wide variety of tools at their disposal.
Sure, asymmetric balance design, I get it. The races are supposed to be different, and I wouldn't want it any other way - but that doesn't mean a certain race HAS to be inherently weaker in certain stages of a game, either. Each race should, optimally, be able to choose different builds and strategies that can make them weaker or stronger during specific periods of time during a game, but all races should have both offensive and defensive options available. A Protoss should have the tools to attack a Terran early on, and a Terran should have the tools to fight a Protoss in the late game.
Asymmetric balance design is about making these tools different and unique for each race, not about removing them altogether.
(I'm sure everything I said has already been stated over and over in this thread, I just felt a bit frustrated and felt like summarizing my thoughts on the matter.)
|
On May 05 2012 07:32 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:49 NHL Fever wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:18 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:[B] Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. 1) Currently Storm area = EMP area. They are both 1.5 radius. (Liquipedia) Please check your facts before stating them as facts. 2) Templars cost heavier on gas, and overall is "cheaper" but Ghosts have passive attack ability, higher movespeed, researchable cloaking and anti-caster snipe. 3) Overgeneralization. Ghosts usually need to lead the terran army in engagements, scan to kill obs, then cloak and EMP. That way you guarantee hitting the major units. 4) Untrue. Snipe observers, then cloak. Protoss has no secondary detection method. Also, high templar into archon formation separated from main army equates to dead archons as well. Your logic, i'm sorry to say, is non sequitor in this case. 5) True, but High templar takes additonal 40 in game seconds to storm, whereas ghosts spawn with enough energy to EMP with the energy upgrade. 6) True, but different units are different. Templar can hold off drops, but same goes for small army of MM in base denies protoss drops too. 7) Tech lab builds relatively quickly and is cheap. The price of add-on is to accomodate for terran building's ability to float. 8) Somewhat true, but if the obs is in the centre of deathball, EMP-ing the army is easier because of the vision deficit. If observer is out too front of army, it is easy to kill the observer with scan and shoot. I'm sorry, different units may be different, but HT is not necessarily "better" than the ghost. 1) Ok fair enough, I'm mistaken. 2) Passive attack capability is useless for ghosts. If you are close enough to use it, you are about to lose all your ghosts and they are too valuable for general duty. No pros make any significant use of regular attack. Passive attack occurs in one circumstance - after you just lost your whole army, are getting overrun and ghosts could not run away. In such a circumstance, I'm not sure if they kill a single unit. 3) Its very hard to scan to kill obs when obs is within other army units. Usually you will die to collosus or zealots before close enough 4) Observers are not bio, snipe does work on them. It rarely matters that archon formation cannot move, as terran army is generally moving backwards during battles to kite, not forwards. I cannot remember the last time I lost any significant amount of archons while forming. 5) This is far outwieghed by the length of time it takes to build ghosts and get them to the battle. Fewer building make them, they need to build, then they need to walk there...slowly with no stim. 6) Yes but the sacrifice in units is less, and you need to kite your units if the drop is anything larger than 3 zealots taking up apm. 7) A rax has only 1 add-on at a time. If you constantly switch, you still only have as many tech lab as you built. If your idea of quick ghosts is to take time and tons of apm to suddently lift all rax from reactors, find space for them on the map, build tech labs, build ghosts (long), then bring ghosts to battle.....well you obviously don't play terran. Shift-spam hotkey for templar is scientifically speaking...about a million times faster than that. Which I happily benefit from when I get toss 8) No doubt I've emp'd my share of clumped deathballs. But the point is that if you emp 95% of the entire army, but miss a 2 or 3 key units elsewhere, you lose that battle. If you hit ANY decent chunk of terran ball with storm, that's a win folks. 9) I should add that ghosts need 2 upgrades, while templar need only storm to be extremely useful Anyway I'm not trying to apologize for terran, I don't care which race the game randomizes me too. I'm just saying that obviously players who play a certain race with ALWAYS see all the advantages of the other guys units, and I know from routine experience that templar are both easier to make and easier to use. Maybe with more time if I become expert, that gap may narrow. But jugding from gsl's the past few seasons, pros are finding the same thing. 2)/4) My terminology for use of "snipe" was to indicate regular attack by the ghost. It 3 shots obs with regular attack. My apologies. Also, a couple of vikings with scan takes obs out in 1 shot i believe. 3)/8) Seems to address a same point. I think this is an overstatement, and it depends on how the armies engage. That 2/3 units missed = lost game. It's matter of where you engage the protoss force. If you engage at a choke, you will lose even if you EMP everything and the protoss has colossi. If you engage in open space, you will win even if protoss has multiple storms left over. If the situation is bad, terran force can outrun protoss army. 5) is still a non point. Different race mechanics doesn't mean one is better than the other. Zerg can make 10 infestors at once with larvae saved up. And insta fungals when out. Fresh warp in HT needs energy to storm. Fresh made ghost rallys to the army, then has EMP energy and a bit more (travel time). 6) is still non logic. HT only completely denies drops when the medivac has more energy than it has it has hp. Otherwise warp in cycle is needed to deny the remainder of units inside. You'll need to tie up at least 8 supply (3 zealot warp + 1 ht) to counter the drop. If you tie up 8 supply of mm, you essentially have same counter to warp prism drop (which is significantly weaker relative to medivac drop, unless playing risky storm drops/immortal drops) 7) Pro Terrans in late game get ridiculous number of barracks and addons. (good late game terrans get upwards of 7 reactor rax and 7 techrax on 4 base.) Your comment of lifting/switching rax is only done early/mid game, and not practical late game. Easier to throw down multiple rax in advance with the MULE mechanic giving large surplus of minerals. And late game terran post ups doesn't require a lot of gas, so gas cost is irrelevant. 9) This is simply wrong. To get HT: You need gate->cyber(warp gate)->twilight council -> templar archive-> storm upgrade To get ghost: You need barracks(and tech lab) -> ghost academy -> ghost energy -> ghost cloak ->(optional factory ->nuke) Full High Templar with all the upgrade takes longer and still costs more after the Full ghost tech. Also, it's heavier on gas, which is vital to any strong protoss play (Robo/upgrades/Templar)
So based on what the pros are saying, and what those of us who play both are saying, what is your theory as to why we find templar easier than ghosts? Other than the obvious reasons, do you have a thought as to why this would be? If so I would love to hear it, because I wouldn't mind winning a TvP late game once in awhile, and I would likewise enjoy the challenge of PvT late game that involves something more than me hitting shift+t-t-t- a-move, pylon, win. Because right now, this is how it goes 80-90% of the time.
|
from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included.
Actually I think constant aggression is much more fun to watch then a 2base timing or a max lategame toss deathball.
I think the match-ups just need more phases were races are stronger. Kind of like mid-phase terran stronger-- later-mid phase toss stronger---late-game terran strogner--- later-game toss stronger.
this way you have more dynamic play of each person trying to pus their advantage.
|
On May 05 2012 07:51 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. Actually I think constant aggression is much more fun to watch then a 2base timing or a max lategame toss deathball. I think the match-ups just need more phases were races are stronger. Kind of like mid-phase terran stronger-- later-mid phase toss stronger---late-game terran strogner--- later-game toss stronger. this way you have more dynamic play of each person trying to pus their advantage.
There are phases now, but they're too significant imo. T has the edge, but it turns into P simply turtling. P gets the edge, and we know how the lategame goes.
More phases of less severity might be more interesting, I agree.
|
On May 05 2012 07:54 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:51 MysteryMeat1 wrote:from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. Actually I think constant aggression is much more fun to watch then a 2base timing or a max lategame toss deathball. I think the match-ups just need more phases were races are stronger. Kind of like mid-phase terran stronger-- later-mid phase toss stronger---late-game terran strogner--- later-game toss stronger. this way you have more dynamic play of each person trying to pus their advantage. There are phases now, but they're too significant imo. T has the edge, but it turns into P simply turtling. P gets the edge, and we know how the lategame goes. More phases of less severity might be more interesting, I agree.
The phases only matter if the end game is even. Because then a player has the strategic choice to use the time where he has an edge to either get an advantage for weaker phases or to try and deal damage. If I have the edge and you turtle, I should be able to anticipate this and gain an advantage through a greedy play (e.g. double expand) that - if not matched by your opponent - translates into an advantage in the end-game where things should be even.
|
On May 05 2012 05:09 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:00 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:59 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:56 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:51 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:40 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:32 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:26 Fencer710 wrote:On May 05 2012 04:23 KanoCoke wrote:On May 05 2012 04:05 Fencer710 wrote:
[quote]
Are you.... EMPing and focusfiring colossus with vikings? Good players know enough to target my vikings (note, vikings are usually really clumped up when firing at objects) and split their forces enough so at least a few high templar and archons survive my EMP bath, which they can do (pre-splitting seems to be getting a bit more common than last year). There's also the good chance of me missing the templars with the EMP blast. Vikings are very brittle, and unless you have really good micro, you can't really dodge storms and blink stalkers + archons forever, maintaining distance and trying to pick off colossi while you also maintain control of your main army that's being decimated by colossi, archons, HT storms and chargelot warp-ins. I honestly find TvP more hopeless in the late-game than I do TvZ. You don't have to. If all his ranged stuff is shooting at your vikings, they should take out at least two of the colossus anyway if you have 14+, meanwhile his units have less shields, specifically his archons, his zealots all died, and now he has colossus/stalker effectively against marine/marauder/medivac/ghost with full upgrades, hmmm...... You assume that all the EMPs hit the whole army with nothing spared. That's hard to do, in my humble opinion. You also have to take into account that in late-game, Protoss usually has at least 10 gates for insta-replenishing supply that just disappeared. Now if you could control 4 groups at the same time like Bisu does, I'm pretty sure you can take down the colossi while avoiding storms and EMPing at the same time, stutter-stepping the bio and retreating the ghosts, then spreading all the bio out into wide arcs to maximize damage potential while minimizing the risk of getting hit by AOE. I'm not sure if your average joe could do that though. It's not really that hard when you have 30 EMP's at your fingertips. Notice that I said 14 vikings will take down a couple of colossus, while stutter stepped Bio will take out the Zealots, leaving a few colossus and some stalker/archon ripe for EMP's. Also, if you can play TvZ late-game, you can absolutely play TvP late-game. It's not actually that hard, most Terran players just don't know the right way to go about doing it. I guess that means MMA, Taeja, jjakji, and MVP don't really know the right way of going about it huh. Also, yes, it wouldn't be that hard if you had 30 EMPs. But what if you don't? Most of the time you don't, unless somehow the Protoss never bothered attacking you until the 20 something minute mark. Vikings are usually shift clicked onto individual colossus according to distance so you can actually focus on your main army not getting destroyed (which I do, because I don't have enough APM to actually control 3+ unit groups at the same time), or your ghosts dying before they get their EMPs out. But anyways, I'm sure you can do all that and more. I, the average joe on the other hand, struggle to micro 2 control groups while minding my structures, upgrades and unit production. TvZ on the other hand, you can just put 4 different full medivacs to 4 different zerg bases while paying attention to your siege line and vikings for the brood lords, as well as patrolling with your marines for infestors and corruptors. So much less intensive on the APM that I don't have. See the latest Day9 daily on TvP found here: http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-456-p1-dselect-vs-vilestate-6122025In this daily, there are two periods described where people die most often: The 8-12 minute mark is where Protoss often die to a Marine/Marauder/Medivac timing, while 13-17 minutes is where Terran players often die to a colossus or Templar timing attack. After those two periods, Terran is favoured. To not die in the 13-17 minute time period, use the scouting information gained from your push, and determine if he's going for HT's, or Colossus, or both. If HT's, then get a ghost academy and pump ghosts. If Colossus, get double starport and pump vikings. If both, get a double starport and a few ghosts. Just make sure to not-die. The funny thing is, I don't have a problem with early and mid-game. I'm talking about late-game. But anyways, go on and ignore me. You said that 'what if protoss attacks before you have critical mass of ghosts and vikings'. I said how to beat that and what time they usually push at. Are we on the same page here? No we are not. I implied that ghosts would be using their energy for cloaking and EMPs constantly in battle, so the possibility of them having 30 EMPs ready and being able to shoot all of them out (without getting feedbacked in succession by a few HTs as well) during the time you actually face the death ball isn't that high commonly. Unless you keep your ghosts away for the length of time to get them all to max their energy, which would be absolutely retarded, because you have to utilize the ghosts strengths as much as you can whenever they're available. I guess I should have spelled that out. Anyway, you're really not helping regarding what to do when it's already the late-game. And to begin with, I only popped up in this thread to laugh at how futile full-mech was on TvP. So thanks, but no thanks. Also, the people above were being sarcastic if you didn't notice. It probably stemmed from you sounding like a smartass thinking that you know better. Good day.
T_T
Sorry, I'm bad at seeing sarcasm in black and white text.
|
So, they said TvP, is broken, fair enough.
I can only feel sorry for anyone who doesn`t understand the simple fact.
The infinitely long(in terms of time) advantage after enemy`s window of opportunity(limited in time avantage) >>>>>>>>>>> limited window of opportunity and infinite(in time) disadvantage later.
Simply because:
1. Map size& expansion/main layout have decisive impact on the limited in time window, but hardly impacts unlimited in time window.
2. Narrowing opponent`s option. While ZvT has tactics for both Z and T to do early or late-game oriented strategy, TvP is 100% predictable. Terran needs to do damage-> terran needs army. It would be quite different IF Terran could just out-macro Protoss, and crush him late-game, but that is not what will happen. Protoss is NOT punished for defensive play because terran simply can not outmacro Protoss to the point where it meters.
Which is extremely bad, because quite frankly terran T3(and Ghost) is something we don`t see very much use in TvZ(except Thor) so the path for fixing late game TvP is absolutely obviously possible, and lies within the High templar&archon&colosus<-> Ghost&Raven&battlecruiser relations. Either Nerf or plain get rid of feedback(which can only be used against infestors in ZvP, and HT is useful anyway in PvZ) which is the main problem with Raven in TvP, the energy level and small cast range of seeker missle means feedback hard counter Ravens(and lack of detector makes observers too good IMO), or buff Snipe(say 35,+65vs psionic for 50 energy), or buff EMP which, like feedback is not that useful vs Z, or the Batlecruiser-thor buff.
Either helps, really. I think limiting feedback to only ground units will largely fix TvP since storms will be contested by seeker missiles, and defending drops with HTs would be harder due to need to storm, not feedback Medivac.
Then, early-mid game can be adjusted by moving steam/concussive shell/combat chield upgrade up in the tech tree,
and call it done.
|
I just really don't agree about terran being so strong early-mid game. Am I the only one having a hard time against protoss allins, or 6gates, 2 base collossus timing pushes, etc?
|
On May 05 2012 08:27 Snowbear wrote:
I just really don't agree about terran being so strong early-mid game. Am I the only one having a hard time against protoss allins, or 6gates, 2 base collossus timing pushes, etc?
that's the point. People say Terran is really strong midgame but I just don't see it. How many times have you, or seen pros just die to a 6 gate after a nexus first. Or any of the huge 2 base timings that just rolls into Terran and we just lose.
|
HT's are way to good in TvP, there are sooo many ways to use them in TvP. They can feedback, BC's, Thors, medivacs (which preventT from dropping which protosses says T needs to do more), storm bio and the list goes on. HT's are waaaay to good in this MU, blizzard need to nerf them.
|
On May 05 2012 08:27 Snowbear wrote:
I just really don't agree about terran being so strong early-mid game. Am I the only one having a hard time against protoss allins, or 6gates, 2 base collossus timing pushes, etc?
protoss can decide to actually play the early and midgame instead of trying to turtle it out, and the options you listed amongst others aren't half bad either, but turtle to max is more popular atm because it is something the casuals can actually copy, unlike SK.MC 2base go for the throat moves.
|
On May 05 2012 09:01 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:27 Snowbear wrote:
I just really don't agree about terran being so strong early-mid game. Am I the only one having a hard time against protoss allins, or 6gates, 2 base collossus timing pushes, etc? that's the point. People say Terran is really strong midgame but I just don't see it. How many times have you, or seen pros just die to a 6 gate after a nexus first. Or any of the huge 2 base timings that just rolls into Terran and we just lose.
How often is this because either:
A) The Terran player did a much less economical opening and didn't punish the nexus-first (or tried and failed)
B) The Terran player didn't scout the all-in coming
If this first case occurs, then a well thought out Protoss build will use the maximum economic advantage possible, and will steamroll the Terran with straight force - just the same as a Terran would CC first against a 3-gate expand. If the second case occurs, then you won't have the proper defences up. Having an advantage in the mid-game doesn't mean you are invulnerable to mid-game pushes, it means that in a typical engagement with equal army investment Terran will come out ahead. You still need to scout the push and have bunkers up for a six gate, or vikings for a colossus push.
And the reverse is true for lategame. If you smash into the Protoss while all their zealots are stuck behind stalkers, and you have EMPs going off before the Protoss has realised the engagement started then you are still going to win. The Protoss advantage is that in a typical engagement where both players have equal army investment the Protoss will win.
The balance comes in the ability for the mid game to affect the late game. Terran can often trade armies with the Protoss and take out a Nexus too before getting pushed out. Forges and Twilight Council's can be sniped before blink finishes or HTs are out. Often being 2/2 against 1/1 is enough for the win - there are just so many variables that can affect the outcome of a battle. And the idea that Terran can't play a macro game is also wrong - yeah you can't turtle up to 200/200 and let the Protoss turtle up to 200/200 and then fight and expect to win (and one race has to be more likely than the other to win on account of not being the same). You have to pressure the Protoss, inflict some economic damage in a mid-game push, but that can be done with the design of taking a long term advantage instead of winning outright. Someone on the second page pointed out that MKP and Puma like to do pushes in the 9-13 minute mark with the idea of denying the third or expanding behind it. This is what you need to do, and the Terran races ability to do this as reliable as anything in SCII is where the balance comes in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
