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On May 05 2012 06:27 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 05:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous  Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. so much fail in one post don't even know how to begin 1) Storm has the same radius as EMP Storm deals 80 damage over 4s EMP does instant 100 DMG Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP. Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP
Yeah it's the same size, but 80 damage over 4s on a 55hp unit is way more effective than UP TO 100 shield damage. Storm can kill an army, emp can't.
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On May 05 2012 06:40 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:35 SupLilSon wrote:On May 05 2012 06:29 polysciguy wrote:
noone complains that in any vz matchup you are required to push out and force them to use larvae on units or else you have a zerg with a super strong economy that can remax on high tier/counter units faster than any race out there, this requires protoss to attack with an early push to deny the third and attempt to stay on even bases, and terran to drop harass as much as they can.
pvt is no different in this reguard, at 200/200 with perfect unit comps and ratios protoss will be stronger, so the solution is to prevent that from happening via harass, which terran is capable of doing so much easier than any other race, terran harrass is also much more powerful than the harass of any other race. That is the solution for terran, it isn't about devolving into a 15m or die attack, its about proper unit control, positioning, and harassment. if terran would drop a couple places at once, it forces the army back or into a base trade, whcih terran should almost always win since his buildings can float and all you need to do is get them out of rang of the stalkers.
that's what blizzard is saying Tanks actually do something vsZ. Plus TvZ is still fun to play. and ghosts do something to vs p, it just actually requires you have semi decent micro, unlike tanks which you can just mass and siege and watch everything die. also if you didn't notice, vs z you are still racing to hit them with a push before they can hit their late game comp.
lol I love you Toss players. Clearly never played a game as T but you somehow think you can come and tell Terrans what to do lol. Tanks require a good deal of attention and there is skill in using them. Targeting with your tanks makes a world of difference in every matchup. And no against Z you arent racing against the clock nearly as much as in TvP. Zerg's late game is much easier to deal with at least for me. And I find if I get a fast 3rd I can keep up with zerg on macro because tanks actually work defensively TvZ.
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On May 05 2012 06:18 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:[B] Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. 1) Currently Storm area = EMP area. They are both 1.5 radius. (Liquipedia) Please check your facts before stating them as facts. 2) Templars cost heavier on gas, and overall is "cheaper" but Ghosts have passive attack ability, higher movespeed, researchable cloaking and anti-caster snipe. 3) Overgeneralization. Ghosts usually need to lead the terran army in engagements, scan to kill obs, then cloak and EMP. That way you guarantee hitting the major units. 4) Untrue. Snipe observers, then cloak. Protoss has no secondary detection method. Also, high templar into archon formation separated from main army equates to dead archons as well. Your logic, i'm sorry to say, is non sequitor in this case. 5) True, but High templar takes additonal 40 in game seconds to storm, whereas ghosts spawn with enough energy to EMP with the energy upgrade. 6) True, but different units are different. Templar can hold off drops, but same goes for small army of MM in base denies protoss drops too. 7) Tech lab builds relatively quickly and is cheap. The price of add-on is to accomodate for terran building's ability to float. 8) Somewhat true, but if the obs is in the centre of deathball, EMP-ing the army is easier because of the vision deficit. If observer is out too front of army, it is easy to kill the observer with scan and shoot. I'm sorry, different units may be different, but HT is not necessarily "better" than the ghost.
1) Ok fair enough, I'm mistaken.
2) Passive attack capability is useless for ghosts. If you are close enough to use it, you are about to lose all your ghosts and they are too valuable for general duty. No pros make any significant use of regular attack. Passive attack occurs in one circumstance - after you just lost your whole army, are getting overrun and ghosts could not run away. In such a circumstance, I'm not sure if they kill a single unit.
3) Its very hard to scan to kill obs when obs is within other army units. Usually you will die to collosus or zealots before close enough
4) Observers are not bio, snipe does work on them. It rarely matters that archon formation cannot move, as terran army is generally moving backwards during battles to kite, not forwards. I cannot remember the last time I lost any significant amount of archons while forming.
5) This is far outwieghed by the length of time it takes to build ghosts and get them to the battle. Fewer building make them, they need to build, then they need to walk there...slowly with no stim.
6) Yes but the sacrifice in units is less, and you need to kite your units if the drop is anything larger than 3 zealots taking up apm.
7) A rax has only 1 add-on at a time. If you constantly switch, you still only have as many tech lab as you built. If your idea of quick ghosts is to take time and tons of apm to suddently lift all rax from reactors, find space for them on the map, build tech labs, build ghosts (long), then bring ghosts to battle.....well you obviously don't play terran. Shift-spam hotkey for templar is scientifically speaking...about a million times faster than that. Which I happily benefit from when I get toss 
8) No doubt I've emp'd my share of clumped deathballs. But the point is that if you emp 95% of the entire army, but miss a 2 or 3 key units elsewhere, you lose that battle. If you hit ANY decent chunk of terran ball with storm, that's a win folks.
9) I should add that ghosts need 2 upgrades, while templar need only storm to be extremely useful
Anyway I'm not trying to apologize for terran, I don't care which race the game randomizes me too. I'm just saying that obviously players who play a certain race with ALWAYS see all the advantages of the other guys units, and I know from routine experience that templar are both easier to make and easier to use. Maybe with more time if I become expert, that gap may narrow. But jugding from gsl's the past few seasons, pros are finding the same thing.
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On May 05 2012 06:27 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 05:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. so much fail in one post don't even know how to begin 1) Storm has the same radius as EMP Storm deals 80 damage over 4s EMP does instant 100 DMG Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP. Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP
Couple things you should consider
1.EMP can do up to 100 damage in shields but not all units have 100 shields for example a zealot only has 50 shields so EMP would only do 50 shield damage, stalkers only have 80 so EMP would do 80 damage not 100.
2. EMP is a projectile not instant so it is possible, although hard, to dodge. Storm on the other hand is instant making it also hard to dodge. The fact that terran has to stim (doing 10 damage to each marine and 20 to each marauder) makes storm a lot better as the bio is already weakened and takes less damage to kill.
3. About the gas limiting point, while templar are expensive ghosts are still very expensive costing 200 minerals 100 gas compared to the templar's 50 mineral 150 gas cost. In fact they use up a lot of terrans limiting factor in minerals leaving us with an excess in gas in the late game something protoss usually do not deal with since they have templar that cost a lot of gas and mineral only units
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On May 05 2012 06:42 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:38 djdnt wrote:On May 05 2012 06:27 freetgy wrote:On May 05 2012 06:02 NHL Fever wrote:On May 05 2012 05:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Just refuting your point that 1 ghost can't decide a battle as much as 1 high templar can, which is utterly ridiculous Ghosts counter Protoss unit compositions easily as much as high templar counter Terran unit compositions. As a random player, I find this argument pretty silly. It's pretty obvious templars are easier to you use and more effective than ghosts, at least in my experience. It's not hard to figure out why, but the basics are this: 1) Storm area is WAY bigger than emp. It is far harder to dodge a storm than an emp. Diameter is at least 2-3x larger, total area probably 6-7x or more. 2) Templar are overall cheaper. 3) There are multiple units that need specific and precise targeting by ghosts - sentries, templar, archon and depleting shields of stsrong units. This is hard to do on a busy battlefield, and it's very hard to pull of without dying, and useless if you screw it up even a little bit. For storm you just aim for any decent chunk of the army and it works, you are never confused as to what you aiming at. The only way storm is bad is if you completely miss everything. With ghosts you could hit large chunks of the toss army with emp but miss a couple key units, and you're dead. 4) Ghosts die after use. They need to be in front for range and get killed, and they can't run away cause their slow. Templar transform into a very strong unit after use = recyclable. 5) Ghosts take a long time to build, templar are insta-build from anywhere. Its much easier and faster to work templar into your composition when needed, as a result. 6) Templar are extremely good both in army, and defending in base. Ghosts not so. 7) Ghosts needs racks with tech lab, which will probably be 50-60% of players rax. Templar can be made from any available gate. 8) Ghosts also need obs to be killed, which is very hard to do when there are a ton of units around even if you have detection. Even pros seem to have trouble with this. I have been frustrated with T as P, and with P as T, I understand where you are coming from. But ghosts are as good as templar? No way. They are both not as good and harder to incorporate because of basic game mechanics. so much fail in one post don't even know how to begin 1) Storm has the same radius as EMP Storm deals 80 damage over 4s EMP does instant 100 DMG Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP. Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP Your argument is invalid because, Storm can kill units EMP CANT yeah thats why your standing army is for. like 100dmg instant isn't already enough. Have you ever tried lategame engagements without storm and colossus? Terran army wouldn't even lose 20 supply. Ghosts lategame are there to balance increase the initial dps output and give an option to negate splash. If you negate splash you win 99 of 100 engagements because standard protoss armies suck.
The guy was totally right with his points man everything but radius was right.
Even it does damage over time it's much easier to cast. just spam it behind/on the terran army. you can't do that with emp, because, you need to aim , and your ghosts need cloak. cloak is not available even with MR (energy upgrade) when ghost spawns. If you don't have cloak , you cant emp , because chargelots slice ghosts before in range. if you have cloak, hope that protoss is retardet enough to not have an obsi. if he has one, LOL gl sniping it. HT's are SOMEWHERE in the protoss ball , you cannot even find them, because the energy and shield and all the bars protoss have,whereas terran units all get huge damage of storm, so basically just hit in anywhere.
it's a fact, that protoss is easier to controll. templar seperate hotkey, colossus with range is no problem if with army.
It is a fact, that storms are easier to cast. One/two storms into an terran army weaken them so much, that you can kill them easily. emps cannot hit all temps of a semi good protoss.
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On May 05 2012 06:27 freetgy wrote:
so much fail in one post don't even know how to begin
1)
Storm has the same radius as EMP
Storm deals 80 damage over 4s
EMP does instant 100 DMG
Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP.
Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP
Ffs, when will ppl learn.... EMP doesn't do damage... You get your shields regenerated pretty quickly, don't need 100 gas unit for healing.
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And btw everyone, if you think lategame protoss has an advantage currently...you have not even seen it all yet. Currently very few protosses actually keep 1-3 speed warp prisms full of templar lategame with their deathball...but I've offraced quite a bit and there is no way Terran can EMP your templar when you have them protected inside of warp prisms.
And when the fight starts, you simply parachute drop out the templar, and you're almost guaranteed to land 2-4 storms which is always enough to win the game almost outright.
I don't think I've lost a PvT offrace out of the last 20 i've played. There have even been games as P where i have had my third base sniped and the Terran gets to 3-4 bases, and I'm just rebuilding the third but they cannot kill me or fight me because i'm 3/0/3 to their 2/2, and i have a cannon ring + templar protecting against drops, meaning it's always 100% a straight up engagement which of course turns out well when you trade cost effectively and then you simply warp in 20 chargelots.
Obviously P isn't my main, but the point is, you shouldn't get a free advantage for simply sitting in your base chronoboosting upgrades / maxing out, and if that is the case the balance team needs to do something to allow Terran to have the same opportunity to play a defensive macro style. Mech was the go-to for that, but everything mech related has been nerfed previously.
It's unacceptable in a competitive RTS to allow 1 race an advantage for making it to a certain point in the game. It's terrible for specators because the game is a forgone conclusion, and it's terrible for the players because it's frustrating knowing you're at a disadvantage.
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On May 05 2012 06:22 yoigen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:04 klops wrote:On May 05 2012 05:47 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 05:43 Joedaddy wrote:
My biggest and only complaint in TvP is that I dislike being forced into gimmicky 1 and 2 base all in type play. Why can't both races have an equal opportunity to win (when on equal footing) in the early, mid, and late game?
I guess that the common theme of "win before 15m or don't win at all" can't really be construed as balance whine now, can it? You aren't. Try taking an early third and you are fine to go. brilliant analysis. please do more in the future. I don't know about you, but it has been working very well for me and progamers such as Kas do it alot aswell. And Kas is pretty good at TvP.
I watch Kas' stream a lot. He hates TvP and believes late game to be heavily protoss favored.
Honestly Blizzard is simply reiterating what everyone knew. Anyone who has played a decent amount of macro TvPs as both races knows the match up design is complete crap (win rates be damned, who cares about 50/50 if its boring to play and watch).
Build order advantages are too strong, toss gateway units suck and to compensate tech is too strong. Toss cannot leave his natural on gateway units unless being super aggressive and once toss gets a lot of supply in tech, terran doesnt have any answer apart from dancing around the map waiting for toss to make a mistake. Every TvP is the exact same thing again and again.
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On May 05 2012 06:50 Endrew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:27 freetgy wrote:
so much fail in one post don't even know how to begin
1)
Storm has the same radius as EMP
Storm deals 80 damage over 4s
EMP does instant 100 DMG
Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP.
Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP Ffs, when will ppl learn.... EMP doesn't do damage... You get your shields regenerated pretty quickly, don't need 100 gas unit for healing.
On May 05 2012 06:38 djdnt wrote:
EMP CANT
Both of these. EMP does not do 100 damage, it does zero damage. Damage is not what it is for.
I could just happen for whatever reason to be better at storm than EMP, but after an average day of ladder, I would compare storm and emp in this way:
Storm = Firing puck into empty net from hash marks. Yes you might miss sometimes, but pretty unlikely. Trying to pick the corners may give you a few wide shots or goalposts. But if you are off center, it still goes in.
EMP = Hitting 3-pointers from the line. Can be done if you have room, time, and focus and lot of practice, but chances are you will be well below 50% in a game setting.
Endrew wrote:Stimmed Bio is >> faster then Protoss units, thus dodging Storms is easier than a Protoss army dodging EMP.
Gas is the limiting ressource for P thus HT are harder to get for Protoss, compared the ressource investment into a Ghost which has still its use beside EMP
Talking about dodging with stim is a moot point because that is only effective if MOST IF NOT ALL of you army successfully dodges it. With emp even if 95% of your army eats it, you still win as long as a couple templar did not. So its a completely different question.
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On May 05 2012 06:36 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:58 Aeres wrote:
I don't know why people are in such an uproar about this. Blizzard didn't say anything particularly new or groundbreaking; their statement can essentially be boiled down to, "Terran has an advantage versus Protoss in the mid-game, and vice versa in the late game. Therefore, both races should exploit their respective windows of opportunity in order to secure a victory."
... That's it.
Terran players already work under that basic rule, by doing all sorts of harassment and drops and such to slow the Protoss war machine before late-game. That's one of the unique aspects of Terran play, being able to disrupt the opponent's economy in a variety of effective ways before it spirals out of control. Protoss players already work under that basic rule, by mitigating the losses sustained by an actively harassing Terran player in order to steamroll the foe when the time is right. That's one of the unique aspects of Protoss play, being able to construct a cost-efficient brick wall of an army that can smash an opponent who does little to prevent its construction.
Blizzard said nothing new. We already knew all of this. We already do all of this.
So why are people angry? Because mid game is 5 minutes, and lategame can be anywhere from 5 to 30 minutes, depending on match length. This means that protoss is, on average favored during a much longer period of time, which is a fundamental flaw in game design. Brood war was much better because you had many more alternating timings for each race. For example, P was favored until T got siege mode and mines. Then T was favored until P got arbiters and zealot speed. Then P was favored until T got their 3rd/4th bases and started macroing off of 8-10 factories. And then LATE LATEgame was basically even. How is this so hard to see? Late game is obviously much more important than one bullshit MMM allin timing with medivacs mid game that the entire race relies upon. It's not very uncommon for terrans to go into lategame with a HUGE advantage (like killing off P's 3rd base and thus being a base ahead) and still lose 10 minutes later. Proof? Recent replays of Jinro, MMAvs Feast at IEM, many many TvPs from MLG, and some replays from IPL 4. All very recent, latest patch replays. Unless the skill gap was too wide, protoss was the favorite to win late game in the overwhelming majority of cases.
Yeah.
In BW all races had units that were just ridiculously strong. Tanks, templars , defilers , spider mines , arbiters, guardians.
The reason BW has seemingly more strategical depth is that the players had to figure out ways to counter ridiculously strong styles/builds themselves. There was no patching every 2 months...
In fact Blizzard didn't even monitor the balance at all i think, at least after the last big patch like in 2001!
In Sc2 it has been like this: oh shit, tanks are too stong on our small shitty maps... lets nerf them.
With brood lord infestor armies they actually held back and let terrans develop ghost style.
Then ... oh shit! ghosts are too strong ... lets nerf them cos they "counter" zerg T3. (feedback vs terran T3 anyone?)
Zerg players had already started to figure out that they could hit terran with T3 units to lower the tank count and then use mass ling baneling. Banelings are actually cost effective vs ghosts, and ghosts clump way more than marines cos of no stim.
So, what we have ended up with is a situation where they have to fine tune things on a razor thin edge between two deathball armies.
Terran has no lategame units that are as strong as brood lords, ultras , templars , colossus etc that are viable.
I think that they could buff tanks a bit without any problems except in the short term.
Full damage to shields would be reasonable, and better scaling vs non-armoured units with upgrades too.
Obviously blizzard has to fix obvious game breaking stuff like reapers in the beta, 2 armor roaches or the Khydarin Amulet upgrade.
With stronger tanks then maybe marines will prove to be too strong. I would take a -1 base damage nerf to the marine any day in exchange for a buff that help terran lategame.
Upped tanks and the old blue flame hellions would have the possibility to make mech super solid in TvP for example.
GIve us something new we can start experimenting with.
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It doesnt matter what the amount of damage an emp or storm does.
Its the ratio of damage to unit Health
Storm does 80 damage, that is 145% of a marines health (assuming marine shield), 64% of a marauders health
EMP does 33.3% of a zealots health and 50% of a stalkers health (never does more than 50% to any unit.)
When you add in that marines and marauders are kinda small compared to all the fat toss units; an EMP will likely cover less units than a storm.
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Blizzard is not saying that they want Terran to WIN in the early or mid game, they are saying that Terran has the advantage to mitigate the late game advantage of Protoss by taking advantage of their inherent mid game advantage. I don't understand what there is to complain about that. Think of TvZ, it is essentially the same thing. Terran pressures Zerg early and mid game while Zerg defends and defends until they get to 3-4 bases and take advantage of their late game advantage. This is how TvZ has been played for all of SC2 and nobody (Terrans at least) complained.
If you want to argue with Blizzard, they argument you would have to prove is that Terran does not have a mid game advantage that is significant enough to mitigate the late game advantage of Protoss, even when the Terran outplays their Protoss opponent. This would be a legitimate argument for TvP being imbalanced for Protoss.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:53 babyToSS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:22 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 06:04 klops wrote:On May 05 2012 05:47 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 05:43 Joedaddy wrote:
My biggest and only complaint in TvP is that I dislike being forced into gimmicky 1 and 2 base all in type play. Why can't both races have an equal opportunity to win (when on equal footing) in the early, mid, and late game?
I guess that the common theme of "win before 15m or don't win at all" can't really be construed as balance whine now, can it? You aren't. Try taking an early third and you are fine to go. brilliant analysis. please do more in the future. I don't know about you, but it has been working very well for me and progamers such as Kas do it alot aswell. And Kas is pretty good at TvP. I watch Kas' stream a lot. He hates TvP and believes late game to be heavily protoss favored. Honestly Blizzard is simply reiterating what everyone knew. Anyone who has played a decent amount of macro TvPs as both races knows the match up design is complete crap (win rates be damned, who cares about 50/50 if its boring to play and watch). Build order advantages are too strong, toss gateway units suck and to compensate tech is too strong. Toss cannot leave his natural on gateway units unless being super aggressive and once toss gets a lot of supply in tech, terran doesnt have any answer apart from dancing around the map waiting for toss to make a mistake. Every TvP is the exact same thing again and again.
Yet it is still statistically his best matchup and he just 2-1d Titan, 3-0d Socke and 3-1d Grubby in takes tournament. I also remember him saying tvp lategame is hard, but do-able.
Obviously there is no point in discussing anything regarding balance on tl, gl keep on whining while I beat protoss, because I don't have this shitty attitude nearly every terran nowadays has. If you lose, you gotta try harder.
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On May 05 2012 07:06 yoigen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:53 babyToSS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:22 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 06:04 klops wrote:On May 05 2012 05:47 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 05:43 Joedaddy wrote:
My biggest and only complaint in TvP is that I dislike being forced into gimmicky 1 and 2 base all in type play. Why can't both races have an equal opportunity to win (when on equal footing) in the early, mid, and late game?
I guess that the common theme of "win before 15m or don't win at all" can't really be construed as balance whine now, can it? You aren't. Try taking an early third and you are fine to go. brilliant analysis. please do more in the future. I don't know about you, but it has been working very well for me and progamers such as Kas do it alot aswell. And Kas is pretty good at TvP. I watch Kas' stream a lot. He hates TvP and believes late game to be heavily protoss favored. Honestly Blizzard is simply reiterating what everyone knew. Anyone who has played a decent amount of macro TvPs as both races knows the match up design is complete crap (win rates be damned, who cares about 50/50 if its boring to play and watch). Build order advantages are too strong, toss gateway units suck and to compensate tech is too strong. Toss cannot leave his natural on gateway units unless being super aggressive and once toss gets a lot of supply in tech, terran doesnt have any answer apart from dancing around the map waiting for toss to make a mistake. Every TvP is the exact same thing again and again. Yet it is still statistically his best matchup and he just 2-1d Titan, 3-0d Socke and 3-1d Grubby in takes tournament. I also remember him saying tvp lategame is hard, but do-able. Obviously there is no point in discussing anything regarding balance on tl, gl keep on whining while I beat protoss, because I don't have this shitty attitude. If you lose, you gotta try harder.
Lol, out of my last 23 games my record is:
6-4 TvZ
6-3 TvT
0-4 TvP
but yeah I guess I gotta try harder -_-
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On May 05 2012 07:08 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 07:06 yoigen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2012 06:53 babyToSS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:22 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 06:04 klops wrote:On May 05 2012 05:47 yoigen wrote:On May 05 2012 05:43 Joedaddy wrote:
My biggest and only complaint in TvP is that I dislike being forced into gimmicky 1 and 2 base all in type play. Why can't both races have an equal opportunity to win (when on equal footing) in the early, mid, and late game?
I guess that the common theme of "win before 15m or don't win at all" can't really be construed as balance whine now, can it? You aren't. Try taking an early third and you are fine to go. brilliant analysis. please do more in the future. I don't know about you, but it has been working very well for me and progamers such as Kas do it alot aswell. And Kas is pretty good at TvP. I watch Kas' stream a lot. He hates TvP and believes late game to be heavily protoss favored. Honestly Blizzard is simply reiterating what everyone knew. Anyone who has played a decent amount of macro TvPs as both races knows the match up design is complete crap (win rates be damned, who cares about 50/50 if its boring to play and watch). Build order advantages are too strong, toss gateway units suck and to compensate tech is too strong. Toss cannot leave his natural on gateway units unless being super aggressive and once toss gets a lot of supply in tech, terran doesnt have any answer apart from dancing around the map waiting for toss to make a mistake. Every TvP is the exact same thing again and again. Yet it is still statistically his best matchup and he just 2-1d Titan, 3-0d Socke and 3-1d Grubby in takes tournament. I also remember him saying tvp lategame is hard, but do-able. Obviously there is no point in discussing anything regarding balance on tl, gl keep on whining while I beat protoss, because I don't have this shitty attitude. If you lose, you gotta try harder. Lol, out of my last 23 games my record is: 6-4 TvZ 6-3 TvT 0-4 TvP but yeah I guess I gotta try harder -_-
My matchups are pretty much the exact same thing until about a month ago. Then I started just doing 2 rax with react and tl and hitting at 3 maraders every game against toss, and I probably win a good 70% tvp at this point. But then again I'm only high-diamond, this doesn't work against masters players. And ther greater point is this: how is this any fun? Its boring for me and frustrating/infuriating for my opponents. But apart from losing, those are my options.
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if tanks weren't 3 food they would be amazing in tvp. but till that changes and maybe the cost.. we're fucked for a strong lategame composition ( perhaps 2 food would help us lategame in both match-ups? )
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On May 05 2012 06:52 avilo wrote:
And btw everyone, if you think lategame protoss has an advantage currently...you have not even seen it all yet. Currently very few protosses actually keep 1-3 speed warp prisms full of templar lategame with their deathball...but I've offraced quite a bit and there is no way Terran can EMP your templar when you have them protected inside of warp prisms.
And when the fight starts, you simply parachute drop out the templar, and you're almost guaranteed to land 2-4 storms which is always enough to win the game almost outright.
I don't think I've lost a PvT offrace out of the last 20 i've played. There have even been games as P where i have had my third base sniped and the Terran gets to 3-4 bases, and I'm just rebuilding the third but they cannot kill me or fight me because i'm 3/0/3 to their 2/2, and i have a cannon ring + templar protecting against drops, meaning it's always 100% a straight up engagement which of course turns out well when you trade cost effectively and then you simply warp in 20 chargelots.
Obviously P isn't my main, but the point is, you shouldn't get a free advantage for simply sitting in your base chronoboosting upgrades / maxing out, and if that is the case the balance team needs to do something to allow Terran to have the same opportunity to play a defensive macro style. Mech was the go-to for that, but everything mech related has been nerfed previously.
It's unacceptable in a competitive RTS to allow 1 race an advantage for making it to a certain point in the game. It's terrible for specators because the game is a forgone conclusion, and it's terrible for the players because it's frustrating knowing you're at a disadvantage.
I watched the game you played the other day vs that terran guy on Entombed Valley and I was honestly super super impressed.
You dropped and multi-tasked like a boss. Especially when you shut down that double medivac drop by using super fast reaction and feedback.
After the guy had left he accused you of maphacking , lol. That's how bad it was. I guess he had not seen protoss played with that level of multi-tasking.
I don't remember if you did that warp prism thing in that game , but you showed us the concept when he had left.
You are right, there is no way in hell that a terran player can deny those storms with emps.
If you micro the prism actively you could possibly get an even greater spread between each templar.
The only way to stop it is then to take them out with vikings which requires some careful micro, and even if that was possible it would mean that the colossusses would get fewer hits by vikings.
Here is a link to a VOD where avilo is playing protoss and performs some of that micro.
The game in question starts around 1h 29m.
http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/316973372
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On May 05 2012 07:06 yoigen wrote:
Obviously there is no point in discussing anything regarding balance on tl, gl keep on whining while I beat protoss, because I don't have this shitty attitude nearly every terran nowadays has. If you lose, you gotta try harder.
You make a good point in general and its a good life lesson, but telling people they need to try harder while at a disadvantage is not the overall goal of sc2 as a sport. The overall goal is to build an exciting and balanced game that will make money and support the scene we love. Sure if the girls team tries hard enough they will beat the boys basketball team sometimes. But nobody is going to pay and get excited to watch that over and over even if the girls occasionally win. Its important for the longevity and health of the sport, to create an even playing field and avoid constant redundancy in strategies, which is the direction tvp is going.
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On May 05 2012 07:01 ApBuLLet wrote:
Blizzard is not saying that they want Terran to WIN in the early or mid game, they are saying that Terran has the advantage to mitigate the late game advantage of Protoss by taking advantage of their inherent mid game advantage. I don't understand what there is to complain about that. Think of TvZ, it is essentially the same thing. Terran pressures Zerg early and mid game while Zerg defends and defends until they get to 3-4 bases and take advantage of their late game advantage. This is how TvZ has been played for all of SC2 and nobody (Terrans at least) complained.
If you want to argue with Blizzard, they argument you would have to prove is that Terran does not have a mid game advantage that is significant enough to mitigate the late game advantage of Protoss, even when the Terran outplays their Protoss opponent. This would be a legitimate argument for TvP being imbalanced for Protoss.
It's not, tanks actually work vs Zerg.
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Stop comparing TvP to TvZ. In TvZ u do pressure attacks to force unit production instead of droning. The most negative thing for protoss when they're getting pressured is to have to make more sentries. Those units that's forced in TvZ usually do nothing. While in TvP, the forced units will almost always pay for themselves in a counter attack.
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EPT
