EPTTvP Lategame comment from Blizzard - Page 56
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
That is only one player... I doubt that he would win vs someone like MKP in a switch-race. I know where I would place my bets. thats funny considering that is what Protoss does to deal with terran drops, cause Warpins alone are not enough to deal with drops (despite many terrans may claim that) Leave one high templar at the edge of your base. If you have good minimap awareness you can either feedback the medivac before it unloads or storm the units in case the medivac had less mana than hp. Fuck it! You can even do both things. Feedback + storm is what ? 125 mana ... Avilo has been offracing as protoss for a really long time(?), of course he's good at it. That is not the point. He smashes terran opponents as protoss but struggles as hell with TvP lategame if he selects the terran race. Since it is on the same account, all opponents have similar MMR... see where this is going? | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:36 one-one-one wrote: To the protoss players in this thread saying that their race is as hard to play as the terran race: Go download a replay pack from avilo or watch some vods from his stream when he is off-racing as protoss. He owns terran players on ladder (NA GM-level) really fucking hard. It is not even funny how easy he makes it look. The other day a guy accused him of map-hacking after getting completely crushed. Guess he wasn't used to face such good protosses, lol. He also proves that protoss has excellent harass options throughout the whole game with warp-ins from proxy pylons, warp prism drops an lategame DTs. How many GM-level protosses would win a TvP game if they played terran? My guess is that they would not go for a macro game... I was so glad I saw him doing that because it proves something that I've suspected for a long time. I never bothered to try to learn any protoss myself. Posts like this make me facepalm so hard irl. Thanks for your completely unnecessary and ignorant post thats proves absolutely nothing except your total bias towards terran and complete denial over protoss. Keep them funny posts coming! | ||
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WoolySheep
Canada82 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:50 one-one-one wrote: That is only one player... I doubt that he would win vs someone like MKP in a switch-race. I know where I would place my bets. You only mentioned one player as well... | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:52 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: Posts like this make me facepalm so hard irl. Thanks for your completely unnecessary and ignorant post thats proves absolutely nothing except your and avilos total bias towards terran and complete denial over protoss. Keep them funny posts coming! In what way is it unnecessary? There were several posts stating that "protoss has to do many things in a battle" and started comparing it with stimming, landing emps , splitting while kiting away from the protoss army. That, my friend , is ignorance. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:57 one-one-one wrote: In what way is it unnecessary? There were several posts stating that "protoss has to do many things in a battle" and started comparing it with stimming, landing emps , splitting while kiting away from the protoss army. That, my friend , is ignorance. Sorry but no saint person is gonna argue with someone like you. You are beyond clueless and biased as fuck. Its a common thing for weak players (your obviously one) to be so delusional on most aspects of the game. You can only spit your imbalance bullshit while completely ignoring the opinions of everyone else. Your not even close. User was warned for this post | ||
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b3n3tt3
595 Posts
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:12 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: Sorry but no saint person is gonna argue with someone like you. You are beyond clueless and biased as fuck. Its a common thing for weak players (your obviously one) to be so delusional on most aspects of the game. You can only spit your imbalance bullshit while completely ignoring the opinions of everyone else. Your not even close. Saint persons? Ok, mr pro. What if I told you I'm high master on both EU and NA? I'm not very biased. What I am is a casual player who has gone from bronze - master in 1,5 years. I don't have time to perfect my gameplay to the insane levels required to beat the protosses I face on ladder over long macro games. So I do a lot of stupd all ins or semi all-ins every TvP cos I care about winning. The situation is very frustrating, because exactly every TvT on ladder starts out with either player complaining about TvP ... Every master terran every grandmaster terran and all progamer terrans know it. How many threads are there about midgame PvT compared to the number of threads like this one ? How many threads are there about lategame PvT? 0 ? | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
Shame that our community is plagued by whiners, but I guess since only 2% of players are in masters league within there respective region that leaves a lot of bad players to talk balance. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:28 HolyArrow wrote: This thread should probably be closed. It's turned into a "my race is so much harder than your no-skill race" shitfest. Would be nice if people tried to talk about actual balance instead of using this thread to just project their SC2 egos. Unfortunately almost every thread about balance turns into a shitstorm except the designated balance discussion thread. Pretty sure that's more strictly moderated anyway, and people actually type a number of paragraphs to discuss options regarding (im)balance. I also wish we lived in a world where people could discuss things without ranting. Not even bias, bias is important to a debate. But rage/rants are so goddam counter-productive. The last page is just one guy ranting pointlessly about the "ease of Protoss" which baits in a lot of others =S | ||
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M7Jagger
Sweden237 Posts
HT's are way to good in this MU, they can feed back banshees, tavens, thors BC's, ghosts, storm bio, there are just way to many ways for the HT to be used, something has to be done about that unit. | ||
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Foxy.
France126 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:56 Swwww wrote: That is really nice, "We know lategame is broken as fuck so just try allin in midgame or you wont win"... Thanks for that fix blizzard you are so cool. Worthless game. Or alternatively...do some damage during your period of superiority so you can carry this advantage into the late game. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On May 06 2012 21:59 M7Jagger wrote: Taking away the energy on thors would be great i think. First of all, no one really uses the thors ability, so the energy is stupid, get rid of it, second of all, HT can feed back sooooo many Terran units, and terran don't really have any damage dealers in the MU, so making thors viable would be good i think. HT's are way to good in this MU, they can feed back banshees, tavens, thors BC's, ghosts, storm bio, there are just way to many ways for the HT to be used, something has to be done about that unit. I agree with everything. Lately top-level protosses have started to use more feedback vs medivacs. Think about it, it damages the medivac or even kills it. And its function as a healer to the bio army is gone for a good while. It is just 100/100 wasted resources for 50 energy if you feedback it right before a battle. Pretty good deal. It can also be used to shut down drop play as one templar alone can buy enough time vs a medivac unloading for warped in units to come and clean up. If you leave a templar in your base it will have energy for 2 storms and a feedback after a few minutes ... It counters both mech and bio compositions for the reasons you mentioned. HTs are actually good vs tanks too because you can morph them to archons that takes like 9-10 tank shots to kill! So yes, tweaking the high templars function in the matchup is a good way to start. Buffing tanks is another option. | ||
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Kliedxl
Canada6 Posts
On May 04 2012 13:32 Panya wrote: Blizzard has recently made a post regarding their outlook on TvP. I have not seen any threads covering it, but it seems to be important enough of an issue in this community for me to make a new topic about it. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108#1 + Show Spoiler + After reading the responses to the recently posted balance update, we’ve seen that a lot of players wanted us to elaborate on the current state of the terran versus protoss late game. Before we begin the longer explanation, it’s worth pointing out that we didn’t originally comment on TvP because, overall, this match up remains balanced according to the games we are seeing, tournament results and ladder data. We do agree that if both sides take few to no losses going into the late game, protoss can have an advantage. That said, we also know that terran players have a lot of offensive capability and harassment options at their fingertips in the mid-game. If terran players press that mid-game advantage, then protoss can’t necessarily get into the late game at their full potential, which can nullify any advantage they might have had. So, pressing that mid-game advantage is important (just as it would be important for protoss players to mitigate mid-game damage so they can to move into the late game in the strongest possible position). Ultimately, each game plays out differently, and depending on how the two races enter the late game, each side has a fair chance to win. StarCraft II is designed with asymmetric design principles. We like having these differences between the races, as long as no one race or tactic offers a significant advantage. To put it another way, mirror matches already show us what StarCraft II looks like when both opposing forces have identical strengths at each stage of the game. In non-mirror matches we intentionally work to provide diverse strategies that make use of asymmetric design to produce varied, fun and interesting games, while maintaining excellent overall balance. That does mean that at different stages of the game, one race might have tools which represent an advantage against the others--though it’s important that those advantages can always be mitigated by good play. All of this comes with an important caveat. We are already keeping a close eye on things and observing all stages of the game. If we start seeing our global ladder results shift dramatically or TvP win/loss ratios start to heavily favor one side or the other in major tournaments, we will deal with the situation accordingly. While I rarely comment on balance because most of it is trivial, the fact that blizzard has openly admitted that TvP forces Terran to push the midgame and by default be weaker in a straight up lategate and then does not want to fix it but would rather have T as an early-mid game focused race is upsetting. Starcraft historically has always valued the macro game, from both a player and viewer perspective. No one wants to watch 1base/2base allins and I would say at least a good part of the player base wants to play long games, myself included. It's understandable that from a game design perspective this can be hard to balance. Everyone knows that its hard to make one part of the game different while not adjusting other parts of the game. It's also understandable given an argument that maybe Terrans should try to wait for a metagame shift and experiment with new ideas. Both these ideas are debatable, but they in common have the idea that its a way to solve the endgame problem. My whole point to this is I'm not proposing any way for us to balance TvP or saying that anyone is imbalanced at anything, its that given the fact that Blizzard themselves have identified an imbalance, they are taking a terrible direction with the race by being complacent with the situation. I think many people here regardless of race can agree with an ideal scenario of every race being balanced at every point in the game, and no race should have to do midgame allins and be on a timer. I'm NOT saying that this is possible, but at least Blizzard should try, instead of being satisfied with the "asymmetry", as implied by the message. This is not the direction I would like to see the design of T head. tl;dr The idea of Terran being an early game focused race has been debated over and over. I know. This time Blizzard has made a official stance on the fact that they are currently okay with Terrans being the early-mid game race rather than fix imbalances caused from different parts of the game. As a player and a viewer, this is not the direction I would like to see in terms of game design. The fact that protoss only rely on high templar and colossus mean that all the terran need to do against protoss is just make sure they have the viking and ghost they need and protoss get kited forever by marauder and protoss doesnt have any reliable unit to count on like roach for zerg... If you have no judgement stop posting shit !! User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:36 one-one-one wrote: To the protoss players in this thread saying that their race is as hard to play as the terran race: Go download a replay pack from avilo or watch some vods from his stream when he is off-racing as protoss. He owns terran players on ladder (NA GM-level) really fucking hard. It is not even funny how easy he makes it look. The other day a guy accused him of map-hacking after getting completely crushed. Guess he wasn't used to face such good protosses, lol. He also proves that protoss has excellent harass options throughout the whole game with warp-ins from proxy pylons, warp prism drops an lategame DTs. How many GM-level protosses would win a TvP game if they played terran? My guess is that they would not go for a macro game... I was so glad I saw him doing that because it proves something that I've suspected for a long time. I never bothered to try to learn any protoss myself. Yeah, let's take Avilo as the pinnacle of Terran skill and look at his offraces. He should switch to Protoss then, maybe he would actually post some results instead of posting balance whines all day long. | ||
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Alaiz
France118 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Terran was never meant to be an easy race to play, and we already have a lot of "feed me" rushes and all ins to work with in TvP. Also, late game TvP isnt as unplayable as late game PvZ given the current trend of base trades with mutas and most protoss have resorted to all sorts of all ins already. I dont see why the terran community has to continually bitch about the fucking matchup. Oh you propose to change the entire game? Theres an expansion for that. Oh you think blizzard isnt doing a good job because they cant drastically change the game all over again and force players to relearn everything? Theres a reason why they ignore you QQers. To those who propose thor changes - obviously havent played terran from the beginning. They already removed it before. Thor rushes became so fucking strong they had to remove it again. Its not like they never tested it. Siege tank damage was nerfed a long time ago because of how fucking strong they were in TvZ and TvT. Buffing it in anyway would break both TvZ and TvT...also - have fun with your new even more stronger 1-1-1 On May 06 2012 19:38 OutOfMyMind_pro wrote: Ghosts outranges HT Ghosts use less energy Ghost can cloack And the clueless plat guys want to push the advantage of the Ghost over the High Templar even further! You should try the Death ball vs Death Ball scenarios more. Snipe has a small casting time - Feedback doesnt. Feedback will hit before snipe hits, and emping individual HTs also wont work. | ||
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
i think about the only productive thing to be mentioned here is the idea of removing thor energy (lets be honest guys removing BC energy would not change anything cause no one would ever make them anyways they are too bad in this matchup). thors though what exactly would they add to the terran army? nothing, in fact they would hinder terran. Thors die to basically everything toss has.... they die to chargelots, immortals and colosus would do just fine, also archons wouldnt do bad against them either. Thors are slow and bulky making the terran army immobile, this is exactly what the terran doesnt want vs a toss army at any stage in the game. stop jumping down blizzards throat about balance, Blizzard is pushing SC2 as an esport, they know what they are doing and will enact changes when necessary because they know alot more then causal players who knows only sense of balance is "OMG that guy beat me and i dont know how to deal with it." or "his army didnt take as much APM as mine to control thats not fair" and of course the best one is "omg P is strong late game so i guess the only way i can win is a early/mid game All-in." honestly Blizzard is and has been doing a good job balancing the game so far, lets let them do continue to do their job, PLEASE give them feedback to help them but for the love of god whining and complaining is not helpful and isnt going to convince blizzard to do any changes. | ||
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